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[dragonflight288]

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

[quote]dragonflight288 wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]dragonflight288 wrote...

A real education where they can also be forced into tranquility, stripped of all emotions if they're considered weak. A lovely campus they can live on but cannot leave without special permission for life, and where their "guardians" can rape them without much fear of reprisal, and abuse them horrendously without consequence.

It's also a charming little hamlet where marriage requires special permission and all children they do have are taken away from them immediately at birth as the dominant religions property.
[/quote]

1. I guess all the Circle mages we see outside of the Cricles are just my imagination.[/quote]

Not many. Wynne gets more rights than others because of her status as High Enchanter, Ines was researching a plant that can grow in blighted soil months after a blight, Wilhelm was given special diespensation by the crown because of his service in the war against Orlais, and Finn would stay in the Tower if he could help it, if it wasn't for the fact that his answers lie outside of it, and he still had to get permission from the templars.

There aren't any cases of mages leaving the circle freely without special permission.[/quote]
Purty sure that the last time I played Witch Hunt, I jsut left straight up with Finn in tow, without him ever asking permission. He can state to the Templar in command that he is leaving, but itsn't mandatory as I remember it.[/quote]

Then that would make him the absolutely only exception to the rule. Even Wynne had to get permission.

[quote][quote]dragonflight288 wrote...
[quote]2. False. There is reprisal and consequences. Some templars getting away with it doesn't mean there isn't. It just means the same thing as it does it real life - there are bad apples in every system and there are holesi n every oversight system.[/quote]

I'm sure Lambert agrees with that....especially since he planned his attack from his meeting with the Divine, and the fact that he also tried pinning all the blame on Rhys for every single murder to try and keep the circle's from falling apart. And that he'll do his job and hold templars accountable for their treatment of mages....

I'm also sure Meredith held her templars to such a high standard that they feared the consequences of their actions.

Or the templars in general give mages privacy to use their toiletries and baths.....

wait....that last two parts simply aren't true at all. [/quote]
You realize that this is a medieval setting right? Do you know where people often sat down and took a **** in medieval time? Right out on the street. In front of everyone. The mages should be happy that they at least have someone to catch them, if they fall in that big nice toilet they got themselves......[/quote]

I do realize that. But I don't compare Thedas to actual medieval history. I compare it to other parts of the culture of Thedas that we see or hear directly.

The Circle's are the only places in the games that have completely open baths and toiletries. Even the fancy mages quarters don't have that much privacy...they've got more than the apprentice quarters do, but they don't have any doors.

No other place in the game, within a settlement, has such open accomadations as the circle.

Add in that the templars are supposed to be always watching, and an apprentice says she fears the templars do watch her bathe, or at least a friend mentioned it and she worries about it, it's a point that still sticks.

[quote][quote]dragonflight288 wrote...
[quote]3. Yeah...no. The Children are not property of the Chantry. Also stances of marriage varries from Circle to Circle. In some no special permission is required.

So, keep up the good fight!


[/quote]

Rhys was taken from Wynne's arms immediately after his birth. Cullen specifically says Templars have authority over mages by Divine Right.

Also, Wynne says specifically in dialogue in Origins that "all children of mages belong to the chantry," as if mages are the possession of the Chantry. [/quote]
Probably a figure of speech. Just like Alistair "belonged" to the Chantry duing his Templar trainning. Again it is a medieval setting, and since mages can't be allwoed to raise their own children, what would you then ahve the Chantry do? Leave the newborn to die? Shoudln't they instead raise them in some capicity? They can't very well send the child away, since an adoption clinic probably doesn't exist yet (no one would want an extra mouth to feed). So the Chantry does what it can, and raises the child within the Chantry.[/quote][/quote]

So it's justifiable to take away a newborn from his/her parents based entirely on whether or not that parent was born with certain talents?

Even if that mage in question is already part of the system, and actually supports it?

[Jaison1986]

There is no justification for taking away mage childs. These mages are perfectly capable of raising their children, and circle provide decent living condition for the mages. There is no reason why the mages shouldn't keep their children. While the Chantry don't really force their mages into labor like slaves, it doesn't change the fact that the chantry treats their mages like property instead of individuals, deciding what happens to their very lifes as they see fit, wich is very similar to slavery in that particular regard.

[dragonflight288]

Jaison1986 wrote...

There is no justification for taking away mage childs. These mages are perfectly capable of raising their children, and circle provide decent living condition for the mages. There is no reason why the mages shouldn't keep their children. While the Chantry don't really force their mages into labor like slaves, it doesn't change the fact that the chantry treats their mages like property instead of individuals, deciding what happens to their very lifes as they see fit, wich is very similar to slavery in that particular regard.

And nearly matches Ancient Rome's and Greece's definitions of slavery to the letter. Only difference is that mages aren't forced into gladiator arenas, can't really buy their freedom (unless they come from influential noble families) and there aren't that many laws that guarantee that they're treated humanely...or at least they aren't enforced.

[EmperorSahlertz]

[quote]dragonflight288 wrote...

Then that would make him the absolutely only exception to the rule. Even Wynne had to get permission.[/quote]
Wynne asks permission from the First Enchanter alone though. She never asks Greagoir.

[quote]dragonflight288 wrote...

You realize that this is a medieval setting right? Do you know where people often sat down and took a **** in medieval time? Right out on the street. In front of everyone. The mages should be happy that they at least have someone to catch them, if they fall in that big nice toilet they got themselves......[/quote]
I do realize that. But I don't compare Thedas to actual medieval history. I compare it to other parts of the culture of Thedas that we see or hear directly.

The Circle's are the only places in the games that have completely open baths and toiletries. Even the fancy mages quarters don't have that much privacy...they've got more than the apprentice quarters do, but they don't have any doors. 

No other place in the game, within a settlement, has such open accomadations as the circle.

Add in that the templars are supposed to be always watching, and an apprentice says she fears the templars do watch her bathe, or at least a friend mentioned it and she worries about it, it's a point that still sticks.[/quote]
In no other place in the game do we even see a toilet.... Where do you think people relieve themselves? And it isn't neccesarily like the Templars constantly stand and just watches them take a humongos crap... No one would want to see that...
Either way, of all the houses we walk around inside less than 20% of them have even a hole in the ground to relieve themselves in.
So based on this, either 80% of the people simply don't crap or ******, or they have to do it outside.

[quote]dragonflight288 wrote...
So it's justifiable to take away a newborn from his/her parents based entirely on whether or not that parent was born with certain talents? 

Even if that mage in question is already part of the system, and actually supports it?

[/quote]
Well. Yes and no. I would prefer if we took away children from mentally ill, even though they havn't done anything wrong. Yet.
Mages are inherently dangerous. There is no way around that point. The question is wether or not you want to expose this child for that danger, for the rest of its life. After all, the child would become the ultimate bargaining chip for a demon.
If the mage supported the Circle system, then the mage would ideally give up the child willingly, since the mage would realize the dange she poses to her own child.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 24 octobre 2013 - 12:17 .

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Well. Yes and no. I would prefer if we took away children from mentally ill, even though they havn't done anything wrong. Yet.
Mages are inherently dangerous. There is no way around that point. The question is wether or not you want to expose this child for that danger, for the rest of its life. After all, the child would become the ultimate bargaining chip for a demon.
If the mage supported the Circle system, then the mage would ideally give up the child willingly, since the mage would realize the dange she poses to her own child.

And of the mages who are fully trained?

[EmperorSahlertz]

What of them? They are still a danger. Wether they like it or not, demons will always be attracted to them, and thus they will always pose a threat to everyone around them.

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

What of them? They are still a danger. Wether they like it or not, demons will always be attracted to them, and thus they will always pose a threat to everyone around them.

Demons are attracted to the mortal world in general, and there isn't really a lot of evidence that mages outside of Somniari are in real danger of possession while they sleep. According the lore, it's a danger, but there isn't really any evidence of it in the Circle's, the Dalish, or other places except where the mage remains untrained.

[Jaison1986]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

What of them? They are still a danger. Wether they like it or not, demons will always be attracted to them, and thus they will always pose a threat to everyone around them.

Being taken away from their parents won't change that. These children will be vulnerable to demon possession regardless of were they live. So you might as well let their mage parents raise them. Malcolm raised Bethany on his own without the Chantry butting in and yet she became an exemplar mage regardless.

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

What of them? They are still a danger. Wether they like it or not, demons will always be attracted to them, and thus they will always pose a threat to everyone around them.

Demons are attracted to the mortal world in general, and there isn't really a lot of evidence that mages outside of Somniari are in real danger of possession while they sleep. According the lore, it's a danger, but there isn't really any evidence of it in the Circle's, the Dalish, or other places except where the mage remains untrained.

Other than the multitude of codex entries and testimonies of several mages. No, not a shred of evidence. If you mean we never experience it ourselves, well yes. But that is gameplay. They couldn't make additional content for the amges, without making some for the other classes, and they didn't feel for that.

Jaison1986 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

What of them? They are still a danger. Wether they like it or not, demons will always be attracted to them, and thus they will always pose a threat to everyone around them.

Being taken away from their parents won't change that. These children will be vulnerable to demon possession regardless of were they live. So you might as well let their mage parents raise them. Malcolm raised Bethany on his own without the Chantry butting in and yet she became an exemplar mage regardless.

These children aren't mages yet. Nor is it certain they will ever grow up to be. So they might be perfectly safe from demons, if they are allowed to grow up away from them. If they develop magical traits. Well, then the Circle is there to handle that.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 24 octobre 2013 - 12:34 .

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

These children aren't mages yet. Nor is it certain they will ever grow up to be. So they might be perfectly safe from demons, if they are allowed to grow up away from them. If they develop magical traits. Well, then the Circle is there to handle that.

And they'll grow up never knowing their parents. I don't know how many orphans you've met, but I've met a few adult orphanss who are plagued their whole lives wondering what kind of people their parents are, and nothing anyone tells them puts them at ease.

Not to mention the emotional trauma the parents go through, losing their child.

Mages who have children, and then lose those children, may be going through Mother's Malady (Post Parthum Depression, or however it's spelled,) will already be anxious, and will worry constantly about what became of their children as the Chantry will go out of their way to keep them from finding out. That may make it that much easier for the mage to become an abomination because of such a practice.

[Lotion Soronarr]

dragonflight288 wrote...

There aren't any cases of mages leaving the circle freely without special permission.

Of course they have to get permision! 
Keeping track of mages is one of the duties of Templars.

But we have seen mages that have almost toal freedom when it comes to going outside of hte tower. Many without any templar esorts.

I'm sure Lambert agrees with that....especially since he planned his attack from his meeting with the Divine, and the fact that he also tried pinning all the blame on Rhys for every single murder to try and keep the circle's from falling apart. And that he'll do his job and hold templars accountable for their treatment of mages....

I'm also sure Meredith held her templars to such a high standard that they feared the consequences of their actions.

Lambers move was a desperate gambit to root out Cole and to keep the Circles from breaking.
Desperate times call for desperate measures. This has nothing to do with regular treatment of mages.

And Meridith was driven insane by the idol.

Or the templars in general give mages privacy to use their toiletries and baths.....

wait....that last two parts simply aren't true at all.

This part definately isn't.
Where the hell do you get this idea that templar go watchmages in the bathroom?

Rhys was taken from Wynne's arms immediately after his birth. Cullen specifically says Templars have authority over mages by Divine Right.

Also, Wynne says specifically in dialogue in Origins that "all children of mages belong to the chantry," as if mages are the possession of the Chantry.

Taken does not equal property. Child Services alos take children away, are tehy therefore property?
No, mage children are raised and taken care of by the chantry, but the Chantry doesn't own them in any sense - especially not legally.

[dragonflight288]

Other than the multitude of codex entries and testimonies of several mages. No, not a shred of evidence. If you mean we never experience it ourselves, well yes. But that is gameplay. They couldn't make additional content for the amges, without making some for the other classes, and they didn't feel for that.

Point out a single instance in the games, where the mage in question isn't a somniari or untrained. Just one.

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

These children aren't mages yet. Nor is it certain they will ever grow up to be. So they might be perfectly safe from demons, if they are allowed to grow up away from them. If they develop magical traits. Well, then the Circle is there to handle that.

And they'll grow up never knowing their parents. I don't know how many orphans you've met, but I've met a few adult orphanss who are plagued their whole lives wondering what kind of people their parents are, and nothing anyone tells them puts them at ease.

Not to mention the emotional trauma the parents go through, losing their child.

Mages who have children, and then lose those children, may be going through Mother's Malady (Post Parthum Depression, or however it's spelled,) will already be anxious, and will worry constantly about what became of their children as the Chantry will go out of their way to keep them from finding out. That may make it that much easier for the mage to become an abomination because of such a practice.

It would all depend on the upbringing they recieve. If they recieve a surrogate mother and/or father figure, orphans can be perfectly fine with not knowing their parentage. If they don't get a surrogate, then it can lead to severe identity crisis yes.
And the mage might become more susceptible for possession. But given the already almost unprecedented amount of mental discipline required for a mage, I highly doubt it. If however it turns out that way. Well, then luckily they are in a contained enviroment, and the child at least is safe.

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Other than the multitude of codex entries and testimonies of several mages. No, not a shred of evidence. If you mean we never experience it ourselves, well yes. But that is gameplay. They couldn't make additional content for the amges, without making some for the other classes, and they didn't feel for that.

Point out a single instance in the games, where the mage in question isn't a somniari or untrained. Just one.

As I said, in the game we don't experience it. But the game gives us numerous sources, pointing out that mages are in danger of possession at ALL times. Just because Feynriel has it bad, does not mean that other mages aren't experiencing something similar. And being trained doesn't mean tehy don't experience it anymore, it just means they have learned how to handle it. Which actually ends up just proving what I'm saying.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Mage children aren't necessarily mages.

The danger doesn't come from them, but from their parents. What would a mage mother do when her son gets sick and the demon comes knocik promising to save it?
I don't pretend that taking the child away is the best solution, but I can understand the reasoning. A child is a bragaining chip. A ****** in the mages armor a demon will try to exploit.

[Jaison1986]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

These children aren't mages yet. Nor is it certain they will ever grow up to be. So they might be perfectly safe from demons, if they are allowed to grow up away from them. If they develop magical traits. Well, then the Circle is there to handle that.

And they'll grow up never knowing their parents. I don't know how many orphans you've met, but I've met a few adult orphanss who are plagued their whole lives wondering what kind of people their parents are, and nothing anyone tells them puts them at ease.

Not to mention the emotional trauma the parents go through, losing their child.

Mages who have children, and then lose those children, may be going through Mother's Malady (Post Parthum Depression, or however it's spelled,) will already be anxious, and will worry constantly about what became of their children as the Chantry will go out of their way to keep them from finding out. That may make it that much easier for the mage to become an abomination because of such a practice.

It would all depend on the upbringing they recieve. If they recieve a surrogate mother and/or father figure, orphans can be perfectly fine with not knowing their parentage. If they don't get a surrogate, then it can lead to severe identity crisis yes.
And the mage might become more susceptible for possession. But given the already almost unprecedented amount of mental discipline required for a mage, I highly doubt it. If however it turns out that way. Well, then luckily they are in a contained enviroment, and the child at least is safe.

You keep telling yourself that. That surrogate mother would still be just an cruel lie of the Chantry. the children would live an lie never knowing their true origin. It's not that different from when the desire demon tricked the templar into thinking he had an real family when he didn't.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Wait what? I know an adopted person. I don't think he views his surrogate mother as a "cruel institutional lie".... The Chantry wouldn't have to lie about the origins of the child. They could be perfectly honest.

[Jaison1986]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Wait what? I know an adopted person. I don't think he views his surrogate mother as a "cruel institutional lie".... The Chantry wouldn't have to lie about the origins of the child. They could be perfectly honest.

And don't you think that if the children knew the truth about their origins, they wouldn't be resentful for being taken away from their parents? Denied to meet them simply because they belong to an different group of individuals?

[dragonflight288]

Jaison1986 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Wait what? I know an adopted person. I don't think he views his surrogate mother as a "cruel institutional lie".... The Chantry wouldn't have to lie about the origins of the child. They could be perfectly honest.

And don't you think that if the children knew the truth about their origins, they wouldn't be resentful for being taken away from their parents? Denied to meet them simply because they belong to an different group of individuals?

I guess it depends on the circumstances of the orphan. If a person is orphaned because their parents died in a natural disaster or were killed, that orphan in question would have every right to know their parents, may even have known them.

If the child is abandoned by his/her parents, that orphan may in turn seek out the truth, and how they feel on it will change from person to person. Maybe their parents abandoned them because they couldn't support a child, but wanted to keep them. Or maybe the parent in question abandoned them because they didn't even want a child to begin with. That one would be very painful to the child to know they're unwanted, but a surrogate parent would be of immense help there.

But forcibly taking a child away from their parents at birth, and then completely refusing to let them see them, is another issue entirely, and one that the chantry practices.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Jaison1986 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Wait what? I know an adopted person. I don't think he views his surrogate mother as a "cruel institutional lie".... The Chantry wouldn't have to lie about the origins of the child. They could be perfectly honest.

And don't you think that if the children knew the truth about their origins, they wouldn't be resentful for being taken away from their parents? Denied to meet them simply because they belong to an different group of individuals?

What truth should be hidden from them? Why would the Chantry hide the fact that some amge was the child's parent? The Chantry have no reason to hide this fact.

[Medhia Nox]

To know the inherent dangers of having mage parents take care of their mage children.... all you need to do is know some American children and their parents.

Overly permissive halfwits without a single shred of accountability - allowing spoiled self-entitled imbeciles to do whatever immoral thing they want in the name of "childhood".

It's a gross oversimplification - but the person who tries to refute it, is very likely one of those: "Not MY child." types.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 24 octobre 2013 - 02:07 .

[Xilizhra]

Medhia Nox wrote...

To know the inherent dangers of having mage parents take care of their mage children.... all you need to do is know some American children and their parents.

Overly permissive halfwits without a single shred of accountability - allowing spoiled self-entitled imbeciles to do whatever immoral thing they want in the name of "childhood".

It's a gross oversimplification - but the person who tries to refute it, is very likely one of those: "Not MY child." types.

You realize you could use this argument for separating any and all biological families, yes?

[Medhia Nox]

And who says I don't?

The only difference is... when a mundane acts out - they throw a wild party. When a mage child throws a temper tantrum - Redcliff dies.

But - more cries of "equality" will surely cover up that disparity.

[Xilizhra]

Medhia Nox wrote...

And who says I don't?

The only difference is... when a mundane acts out - they throw a wild party. When a mage child throws a temper tantrum - Redcliff dies.

But - more cries of "equality" will surely cover up that disparity.

That wasn't a tantrum, that was trying to save one's dying father with no support or advice from anyone whatsoever.