1420 réponses à ce sujet

[leaguer of one]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

The Hawke family is not "most" mage children or familes. They are the special snowflake family of the protaganist. And even Bethany prefers circle life.

You're right, the Hawke's were able to raise their children without the Chantry taking them away at birth. That's quite unusual.

Malcolm was a Circle Mage though, so technically the trainning the Hawkes recieved would have been similar to, if not the same, as a Circle Mage.

It's more of a point that if there mages in that family there in no need to take that families mage children. This is only needed for families of non-mages who birth mages.

[Xilizhra]

That doesn't mean that one can't be run well. Just that the current guards need to be reformed a lot.

The guards and the religious superstructure. And the rules.

There's a group of apostate mages that operate with relative autonomy from the Chantry due to bribing the Templars, and one of their apprentices turns to blood magic. The master tries to kill him, the apprentice goes abomination, and if the Warden hadn't stumbled onto the abomination by chance there's no telling how long it would have survived in (and knowing abominations, rampaged through) the wilderness.

Compare that to the Circle system in place that led to a whole bunch of demons and abominations coming through at once. And while abominations can be quite powerful, not all are.

[leaguer of one]

Xilizhra wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

And it wouldn't have happened if he was sent to a circle and got proper training

It would also not have happened if the Circle was so undesirable that his mother especially wanted to keep him out of it... or if he'd gotten proper training outside the Circle.

Who is going to train that child outside of the circle?

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

The Hawke family is not "most" mage children or familes. They are the special snowflake family of the protaganist. And even Bethany prefers circle life.

You're right, the Hawke's were able to raise their children without the Chantry taking them away at birth. That's quite unusual.

Malcolm was a Circle Mage though, so technically the trainning the Hawkes recieved would have been similar to, if not the same, as a Circle Mage.

This is evidence then that Circle mages can raise children without fear, if the children are propery trained should they be mages, and if the parent-mage is also trained. 

Not exactly, considering Malcolm and the Hawke siblings all work under the PC rules, and are thus of unique and unreplicatable character. And it would indeed seem that Malcolm was a haunted man, given the descriptions we recieve of him. So who is to say that he wasn't plagued by demons daily? But he was simply of such character that he could resist them.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 24 octobre 2013 - 03:12 .

[Medhia Nox]

I'm also going to be harsh and say that a simple farmer - or miner - fisherman isn't going to want to deal with everything that comes from having a mage child.

I don't know if people on the BSN aren't exposed to the seedier realities of life - but I know MANY parents that are not up to the task of parenting - and certainly not at all up to the task of parenting a child with special needs (whatever those needs may be).

And for a pre-Industrialization world - a child who isn't going to contribute to the families livelihood immediately - would be considered a liability when compared to the kids that can get out in the fields and farm.

I really think there's too much modern thinking (and I don't mean progressively moral) in BSN threads - and not enough trying to imagine what living in a pre-Industrial agrarian society might be like.

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

The Hawke family is not "most" mage children or familes. They are the special snowflake family of the protaganist. And even Bethany prefers circle life.

You're right, the Hawke's were able to raise their children without the Chantry taking them away at birth. That's quite unusual.

Malcolm was a Circle Mage though, so technically the trainning the Hawkes recieved would have been similar to, if not the same, as a Circle Mage.

This is evidence then that Circle mages can raise children without fear, if the children are propery trained should they be mages, and if the parent-mage is also trained. 

Not exactly, considering Malcolm and the Hawke siblings all work under the PC rules, and are thus of unique and unreplicatable character. And it would indeed seem that Malcolm was a haunted man, given the descriptions we recieve of him. So who is to say that he wasn't plagued by demons daily? But he was simply of such character that he could resist them.

It's not like I have any other examples of a trained mage raising his kids outside of a Circle because the Chantry has a tendency to take the kids. Every other example we've had in the game has been mundanes trying to raise children outside of the Circles because they feared the Circle system too much, or they feared losing their children forever, and the mage child remains untrained and disaster strikes. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

That doesn't mean that one can't be run well. Just that the current guards need to be reformed a lot.

The guards and the religious superstructure. And the rules.

Yes, yes. Moving on.

There's a group of apostate mages that operate with relative autonomy from the Chantry due to bribing the Templars, and one of their apprentices turns to blood magic. The master tries to kill him, the apprentice goes abomination, and if the Warden hadn't stumbled onto the abomination by chance there's no telling how long it would have survived in (and knowing abominations, rampaged through) the wilderness.

Compare that to the Circle system in place that led to a whole bunch of demons and abominations coming through at once. And while abominations can be quite powerful, not all are.

The horde of abominations was trapped in a Tower and the Templars knew where it was. The one in "Have You Seen Me?" was in the wilderness, and had just killed the one person who knew it existed. Also, the one in that quest was boss level. And it still showed no sign of abilities Gaider said are common to abominations, which means that after accounting for gameplay and story segregation it should have been more powerful. (The same goes for most of the abominations in the game, btw.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 24 octobre 2013 - 03:17 .

[leaguer of one]

Xilizhra wrote...

That doesn't mean that one can't be run well. Just that the current guards need to be reformed a lot.

The guards and the religious superstructure. And the rules.

There's a group of apostate mages that operate with relative autonomy from the Chantry due to bribing the Templars, and one of their apprentices turns to blood magic. The master tries to kill him, the apprentice goes abomination, and if the Warden hadn't stumbled onto the abomination by chance there's no telling how long it would have survived in (and knowing abominations, rampaged through) the wilderness.

Compare that to the Circle system in place that led to a whole bunch of demons and abominations coming through at once. And while abominations can be quite powerful, not all are.

1."The guards and the religious superstructure. And the rules."

That not the real issue. the problem is the people not just the rules.Having templars are more understand and flexible wih mages helps hve those rules changed as well as gives the mages more freedom. Having better rules does nothing if the templars don't want to fallow them.

2.All abominations are power ful. The difference with each is by how much from one another. An abomination can only be not as strong , not weak.

[Xilizhra]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

That doesn't mean that one can't be run well. Just that the current guards need to be reformed a lot.

The guards and the religious superstructure. And the rules.

There's a group of apostate mages that operate with relative autonomy from the Chantry due to bribing the Templars, and one of their apprentices turns to blood magic. The master tries to kill him, the apprentice goes abomination, and if the Warden hadn't stumbled onto the abomination by chance there's no telling how long it would have survived in (and knowing abominations, rampaged through) the wilderness.

Compare that to the Circle system in place that led to a whole bunch of demons and abominations coming through at once. And while abominations can be quite powerful, not all are.

The horde of abominations was trapped in a Tower and the Templars knew where it was. The one in "Have You Seen Me?" was in the wilderness, and had just killed the one person who knew it existed. Also, the one in that quest was boss level. And it still showed no sign of abilities Gaider said are common to abominations, which means that after accounting for gameplay and story segregation it should have been more powerful. (The same goes for most of the abominations in the game, btw.)

If they rampage, they'll draw attention. Would it truly have racked up a higher body count than the Annulment? While possible, I find it rather unlikely.

[leaguer of one]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

The Hawke family is not "most" mage children or familes. They are the special snowflake family of the protaganist. And even Bethany prefers circle life.

You're right, the Hawke's were able to raise their children without the Chantry taking them away at birth. That's quite unusual.

Malcolm was a Circle Mage though, so technically the trainning the Hawkes recieved would have been similar to, if not the same, as a Circle Mage.

This is evidence then that Circle mages can raise children without fear, if the children are propery trained should they be mages, and if the parent-mage is also trained. 

Not exactly, considering Malcolm and the Hawke siblings all work under the PC rules, and are thus of unique and unreplicatable character. And it would indeed seem that Malcolm was a haunted man, given the descriptions we recieve of him. So who is to say that he wasn't plagued by demons daily? But he was simply of such character that he could resist them.

There is also Shales former master that proves this too as well as all the tivintor mages and the dalish keepers. There is no need to take mage children from mage families.

Modifié par leaguer of one, 24 octobre 2013 - 03:23 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...

Compare that to the Circle system in place that led to a whole bunch of demons and abominations coming through at once. And while abominations can be quite powerful, not all are.[/quote]

The horde of abominations was trapped in a Tower and the Templars knew where it was. The one in "Have You Seen Me?" was in the wilderness, and had just killed the one person who knew it existed. Also, the one in that quest was boss level. And it still showed no sign of abilities Gaider said are common to abominations, which means that after accounting for gameplay and story segregation it should have been more powerful. (The same goes for most of the abominations in the game, btw.)[/quote]
If they rampage, they'll draw attention. Would it truly have racked up a higher body count than the Annulment? While possible, I find it rather unlikely.
[/quote]

If it ran into a couple of villages while rampaging? Quite possibly.

[Reaverwind]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I'm also going to be harsh and say that a simple farmer - or miner - fisherman isn't going to want to deal with everything that comes from having a mage child.

I don't know if people on the BSN aren't exposed to the seedier realities of life - but I know MANY parents that are not up to the task of parenting - and certainly not at all up to the task of parenting a child with special needs (whatever those needs may be).

And for a pre-Industrialization world - a child who isn't going to contribute to the families livelihood immediately - would be considered a liability when compared to the kids that can get out in the fields and farm.

I really think there's too much modern thinking (and I don't mean progressively moral) in BSN threads - and not enough trying to imagine what living in a pre-Industrial agrarian society might be like.

It might come as a shock to some that fostering was a common practice amongst  the upper classes during the Middle Ages  - it was a way to ensure a child reciceved training which the family itself couldn't provide. So yes, the concept of the family being entirely responsible for the rearing of a child is fairly modern.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

leaguer of one wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

This is evidence then that Circle mages can raise children without fear, if the children are propery trained should they be mages, and if the parent-mage is also trained. 

Not exactly, considering Malcolm and the Hawke siblings all work under the PC rules, and are thus of unique and unreplicatable character. And it would indeed seem that Malcolm was a haunted man, given the descriptions we recieve of him. So who is to say that he wasn't plagued by demons daily? But he was simply of such character that he could resist them.

There is also Shales former master that proves this too as well as all the tivintor mages and the dalish keepers. There is no need to take mage children from families.

The Tevinters do the same thing, (Edit: we have this from Gaider) and I'm pretty sure Shale's former master was Circle trained. The Dalish I think survive because abominations really are rare. The problem is that one will happen eventually.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 24 octobre 2013 - 03:32 .

[Medhia Nox]

We don't know anything about how the Tevinter magisters deal with these things - I would be truly surprised to see anything but the most draconian forms of control to weed out week mages in Tevinter.

The Dalish have extraordinarily small populations of mages which can easily be watched by the entire Clan.

And... I'm not sure what we're learning from Shale's former Master except that his granddaughter is susceptible to desire demons.

[Xilizhra]

The Dalish have extraordinarily small populations of mages which can easily be watched by the entire Clan.

Keep in mind that they're not restricted to only two mages. They may pawn extra mages off to clans who don't have a First, but they don't have to kick out extras. For instance, Zathrian's clan had Aneirin, and Lanaya mentions having to compete with others to become Zathrian's First.

[leaguer of one]

Medhia Nox wrote...

We don't know anything about how the Tevinter magisters deal with these things - I would be truly surprised to see anything but the most draconian forms of control to weed out week mages in Tevinter.

The Dalish have extraordinarily small populations of mages which can easily be watched by the entire Clan.

And... I'm not sure what we're learning from Shale's former Master except that his granddaughter is susceptible to desire demons.

1. The fact Tevinter in not covered with Abomination proves it's not an issue.

2.With the dalish it not about them having limited mages. It's the fact that elves have a low population in general. We don't know how many mages the dalish have. Even then it not a case they are watch there mages out of fear. The fact that they have little issue of it proves that it does not happen as much.

3. We don't know if she was a mage. Even then she is just a child with little training. That desire demon was not mean for anyone of her age to meet and crossed her path due to unforseen events.

[Medhia Nox]

@Xilizhra: I didn't say small populations of mages were enforced - just that we've only been shown small populations, and until shown otherwise - it's all I'm interested in discussing.

I'm curious - did she say what happened to the other mages she competed against? Cause they don't seem to be in the camp (doesn't mean they're not - not every NPC is fleshed out).

Personally - I'd love to find out something sinister happens to failed mages in the Dalish clans, but moreso for a storytelling aspect than anythign else.  

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 24 octobre 2013 - 03:32 .

[Xilizhra]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: I didn't say small populations of mages were enforced - just that we've only been shown small populations, and until shown otherwise - it's all I'm interested in discussing.

I'm curious - did she say what happened to the other mages she competed against? Cause they don't seem to be in the camp (doesn't mean they're not - not every NPC is fleshed out).

She did not, say anything about what happened to those who didn't win, but her tone didn't imply anything bad; certainly nothing like clan exile.

[leaguer of one]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: I didn't say small populations of mages were enforced - just that we've only been shown small populations, and until shown otherwise - it's all I'm interested in discussing.

I'm curious - did she say what happened to the other mages she competed against? Cause they don't seem to be in the camp (doesn't mean they're not - not every NPC is fleshed out).

She did not but guessing from Merrill comments, dalish mages have a history of trading mages who are not keepers.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: I didn't say small populations of mages were enforced - just that we've only been shown small populations, and until shown otherwise - it's all I'm interested in discussing.

I'm curious - did she say what happened to the other mages she competed against? Cause they don't seem to be in the camp (doesn't mean they're not - not every NPC is fleshed out).

She did not, say anything about what happened to those who didn't win, but her tone didn't imply anything bad; certainly nothing like clan exile.

I'm going to take a guess and say they were relegated to taking care of the clan's pet deer.

[Androme]

 No real reason. People hate on the chantry because the chantry represents authority and the ''status-quo''. Most people on these forums are young teenagers in their rebellious years who goes mad whenever they see something representing those two things, very comparable to the deity ''Saradomin'' in the game RuneScape, despite simply wanting to protect people, he's the most hated deity

Modifié par Androme, 24 octobre 2013 - 03:36 .

[Xilizhra]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: I didn't say small populations of mages were enforced - just that we've only been shown small populations, and until shown otherwise - it's all I'm interested in discussing.

I'm curious - did she say what happened to the other mages she competed against? Cause they don't seem to be in the camp (doesn't mean they're not - not every NPC is fleshed out).

She did not, say anything about what happened to those who didn't win, but her tone didn't imply anything bad; certainly nothing like clan exile.

I'm going to take a guess and say they were relegated to taking care of the clan's pet deer.

Halla. And one of them might have been, the other's described as a healer.

[Medhia Nox]

So the Dalish "might" trade mages... like... property?

That's delightful - if true.

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Xilizhra: I didn't say small populations of mages were enforced - just that we've only been shown small populations, and until shown otherwise - it's all I'm interested in discussing.

I'm curious - did she say what happened to the other mages she competed against? Cause they don't seem to be in the camp (doesn't mean they're not - not every NPC is fleshed out).

She did not, say anything about what happened to those who didn't win, but her tone didn't imply anything bad; certainly nothing like clan exile.

I'm going to take a guess and say they were relegated to taking care of the clan's pet deer.

Halla. And one of them might have been, the other's described as a healer.

You are really going to take issue with not referring to fantsasy deer as such?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Androme wrote...

 No real reason. People hate on the chantry because the chantry represents authority and the ''status-quo''. Most people on these forums are young teenagers in their rebellious years who goes mad whenever they see something representing those two things, very comparable to the deity ''Saradomin'' in the game RuneScape, despite simply wanting to protect people, he's the most hated deity

While I haven't actively paid attention in quite some time, isn't Guthix the one who found the antidote to the poison both Saradomin and Zamorak were using to devestating effect on each other's armies?

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 24 octobre 2013 - 03:40 .