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[Jedi Master of Orion]

Well we don't know exactly what the full entirety of the Canticle of Shartan entailed, it's possible there's political reasons for decanonizing it as well. It could be they didn't want to emphasize elven contributions to Andraste's March or they didn't want an elven hero as part of Andrastian culture or perhaps it makes a specific reference to the Dales. So far all we know is that the gist of it is "And the elves were there also helping Andraste."

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 21 octobre 2013 - 11:47 .

[Br3admax]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Well we don't know exactly what the full entirety of the Canticle of Shartan entailed, it's possible there's political reasons for decanonizing it as well. It could be they didn't want to emphasize elven contributions to Andraste's March or they didn't want an elven hero as part of Andrastian culture or perhaps it makes a specific reference to the Dales. So far all we know is that the gist of it is "And the elves were there also helping Andraste."

This makes almost no sense to me. Especially the part where they write verses, and then wait ages to remove it. 

Modifié par Br3ad, 21 octobre 2013 - 11:58 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Well the war with the elves caused anti-elven sentiment to become more widespread that didn't exist when the verses were written.

[The Elder King]

The Chantry has a good side and a bad side, as every other organizations, groups or societies. in Thedas. How much good or bad depends on people's opinions and values.
From all the organizations, cultures and groups we've seen so far, I haven't seen one without huge flaws. I'd prefer the Wardens, because they're generally neutral and focused on the Blight (though they could be rather extremistic in accomplishing their goals, and the FW wants to expand their political influence), though Inquisition might change that.

[cjones91]

Because the Chantry is either ignorant about the abuses going in the Circles or they turn a blind eye to it.Not to mention they have been involved in the destruction of a entire culture(whether you think it was right or not the elves did no deserve to have their entire culture ripped from them) and a bunch of other crap.

If I get the chance I'm taking them down a peg by removing the Chantry's political power and defanging them once and for all.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

They are pro slavery keeping the elves as second class citizens, constant imprisonment with the Circle and they're drug dealers giving the Templars lyrium that slowly drives them insane.

So yeah if I knew nothing else about the Chantry that would be enough to make me dislike them.

Modifié par ISpeakTheTruth, 22 octobre 2013 - 12:15 .

[Si-Shen]

All religious organizations, especially in the time period the game takes place are out to control the world. Honestly, if those "few corrupt" are not the majority, why is it so easy to find evidence to convict yet they do nothing? Because they want it, they just need someone to take the fall when it goes bad.

[WillPF363]

Somewhere on the last page someone (I think the OP) said we've never seen someone be killed by the Chantry for being non-believers. That's not true, Seamus Dumas and the Qunari envoys in DA2 were all murdered for that very reason, on the orders of a Chantry priestess. And Elthina was at least guilty of turning a blind eye to Petrice's scheming.

Also the Chantry maintains a lucrative monopoly over the lyrium trade. They also get to decide when circle mages can be used for war, something that gives them tremendous power. And they're not shy about committing mass murder in the form of the Rite of Annulment- see Kirkwall and the circle in Rivain.

[cjones91]

Foshizzlin wrote...

The Chantry has corrupt members, but lolswag keyboard warrior Atheists in their teens love saying any religion/institution is corrupt, wrong, and that they should "fight the power".

I agree the Chantry has faults, but it's got some great individuals in it and has done a lot of good for many people. Some people have logical criticisms, but at least on BSN most of the hate that I've seen comes from typical "DUDE RELIGION IS STUPID YOU'RE IGNORANT FIGHT THE POWER MAAAAN" types.

I hate the Chantry because of how it treats Mages and how it treats those who don't follow its beliefs, and because of the Templars, whom I despise almost universally.

Or...or it's because the Chantry has rubbed alot of people the wrong way.

[cjones91]

Foshizzlin wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Foshizzlin wrote...

The Chantry has corrupt members, but lolswag keyboard warrior Atheists in their teens love saying any religion/institution is corrupt, wrong, and that they should "fight the power".

I agree the Chantry has faults, but it's got some great individuals in it and has done a lot of good for many people. Some people have logical criticisms, but at least on BSN most of the hate that I've seen comes from typical "DUDE RELIGION IS STUPID YOU'RE IGNORANT FIGHT THE POWER MAAAAN" types.

I hate the Chantry because of how it treats Mages and how it treats those who don't follow its beliefs, and because of the Templars, whom I despise almost universally.

Or...or it's because the Chantry has rubbed alot of people the wrong way.

Which is why any time a Chantry thread is made you get a dozen or so "Religion in the real world and Dragon Age's is all corrupt and evil" types. Have your opinions on religion, that's fine, but I wish the majority of criticism for the Chantry didn't come from a hatred of religion in the real world. It just makes people sound like dumb keyboard warriors.

I don't really hate religion but I do hate the fanatics that twist a particular religion to commit atrocities.Many people feel the Chantry has done just that.

[wolfhowwl]

Foshizzlin wrote...

The Chantry has corrupt members, but keyboard warrior Atheists in their teens love saying any religion/institution is corrupt, wrong, and that you're an ignorant bigot for ever agreeing with them.

I agree the Chantry has faults, but it's got some great individuals in it and has done a lot of good for many people. Some people have logical criticisms, but at least on BSN most of the hate that I've seen comes from typical "DUDE RELIGION IS STUPID YOU'RE IGNORANT WIPE OUT THE CHANTRY FIGHT THE POWER MAAAAN" types. Most of these types ironically love the Qunari, though.

I hate the Chantry because of how it treats Mages and how it treats those who don't follow its beliefs, and because of the Templars, whom I despise almost universally. But it isn't as corrupt or evil as people say it is.

*tips fedora*

[cjones91]

wolfhowwl wrote...

Foshizzlin wrote...

The Chantry has corrupt members, but keyboard warrior Atheists in their teens love saying any religion/institution is corrupt, wrong, and that you're an ignorant bigot for ever agreeing with them.

I agree the Chantry has faults, but it's got some great individuals in it and has done a lot of good for many people. Some people have logical criticisms, but at least on BSN most of the hate that I've seen comes from typical "DUDE RELIGION IS STUPID YOU'RE IGNORANT WIPE OUT THE CHANTRY FIGHT THE POWER MAAAAN" types. Most of these types ironically love the Qunari, though.

I hate the Chantry because of how it treats Mages and how it treats those who don't follow its beliefs, and because of the Templars, whom I despise almost universally. But it isn't as corrupt or evil as people say it is.

*tips fedora*

I guess bashing atheists is a thing around here....

[wcholcombe]

WillPF363 wrote...

Somewhere on the last page someone (I think the OP) said we've never seen someone be killed by the Chantry for being non-believers. That's not true, Seamus Dumas and the Qunari envoys in DA2 were all murdered for that very reason, on the orders of a Chantry priestess. And Elthina was at least guilty of turning a blind eye to Petrice's scheming.

Also the Chantry maintains a lucrative monopoly over the lyrium trade. They also get to decide when circle mages can be used for war, something that gives them tremendous power. And they're not shy about committing mass murder in the form of the Rite of Annulment- see Kirkwall and the circle in Rivain.

Acrually the dwarves control the lyrium trade.  The chantry is their largest but by no means only customer.

[Either.Ardrey]

Because people seem incapable of separating individuals from the groups they fall under. It would be like saying I hate all athletes because I met several who were total dudebros, or all actors because I know of many who are to wealth hogs, or that all Christians are bad, drooling, superstitious idiots because of what the media shows of Westboro and Bill O'Reilly, despite knowing that there are those out there who aren't.

It's not the Chantry that's corrupt, it's certain individuals within them that abuse their position for their own petty goals and gain. For every Petrice, there's also a Sebastian. No organization can weed out all corrupt individuals within their ranks, so why should we expect the Chantry to have done any different?

Modifié par Either.Ardrey, 22 octobre 2013 - 12:40 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

WillPF363 wrote...

Somewhere on the last page someone (I think the OP) said we've never seen someone be killed by the Chantry for being non-believers. That's not true, Seamus Dumas and the Qunari envoys in DA2 were all murdered for that very reason, on the orders of a Chantry priestess. And Elthina was at least guilty of turning a blind eye to Petrice's scheming.

Uh no, they were killed in order to provoke a conflcit between the Qunari and Kirkwall on the orders of a Chantry priestess  who had gone rouge. Their deaths were a means to an end to acheive Petrice's goal.

[LobselVith8]

wcholcombe wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

When the Chantry uses religion to dominate and subjugate people in the name of the Maker, some people are going to take issue with it. 

Ok, but I haven't yet seen someone killed because they didn't believe in the Maker. I haven't seen anyone with a sword to their throat being told to convert or die.

Entire towns of Qunari converts were killed by Andrastian forces, and modern Dalish are threatened to convert, as we know with the Sabrae clan.

wcholcombe wrote...

I have heard by those who defend the Dalish, that they didn't allow the chantry into the dales.  You know what, it is possible that there were dalish who were interested in the chantry.  Unlikely...yes, but no more so than a priest of the chantry who is a dwarf opening a chantry in Orzammar. 

I thought you didn't want to address the fall of the Dales?

[Either.Ardrey]

wcholcombe wrote...

WillPF363 wrote...

Somewhere on the last page someone (I think the OP) said we've never seen someone be killed by the Chantry for being non-believers. That's not true, Seamus Dumas and the Qunari envoys in DA2 were all murdered for that very reason, on the orders of a Chantry priestess. And Elthina was at least guilty of turning a blind eye to Petrice's scheming.

Also the Chantry maintains a lucrative monopoly over the lyrium trade. They also get to decide when circle mages can be used for war, something that gives them tremendous power. And they're not shy about committing mass murder in the form of the Rite of Annulment- see Kirkwall and the circle in Rivain.

Acrually the dwarves control the lyrium trade.  The chantry is their largest but by no means only customer.

And Seamus was killed by a few individuals who happened to be within the Chantry, not the Chantry itself. Legitimate Chantry followers wouldn't condone this sort of action, just like the Bible wouldn't have condoned the Crusades, or the Qur'an wouldn't condone the Taliban's jihaad against us "infidels". It all comes down to corrupt individuals twisting and corrupting source material out of context to fit their agenda and duping others into enacting and believing it.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

LobselVith8 wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

When the Chantry uses religion to dominate and subjugate people in the name of the Maker, some people are going to take issue with it. 

Ok, but I haven't yet seen someone killed because they didn't believe in the Maker. I haven't seen anyone with a sword to their throat being told to convert or die.

Entire towns of Qunari converts were killed by Andrastian forces, and modern Dalish are threatened to convert, as we know with the Sabrae clan.

During the Qunari Wars. It didn't just come out of nowhere. Killing enemy civilians in a war is wrong, but it's not quite the same as coming across a community minding it's own business and demanding they convert or die.

[Reznore57]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

During the Qunari Wars. It didn't just come out of nowhere. Killing enemy civilians in a war is wrong, but it's not quite the same as coming across a community minding it's own business and demanding they convert or die.

Well the chantry already conquered all of Thedas...the only place they have problem with is Rivain.
Do you think they were kind to all the Old Gods worshipper back then ?
They killed them all .
It's a bit naive to think the Chantry wasn't involved in massacre .
Nowadays they just don't really need to , they more or less won.
Humans /elves not worshipping the maker are forced to live on the fringe of human society.
It's not really different than the whole Tal Vashoth business.