1420 réponses à ce sujet

[wcholcombe]

eluvianix wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Oooo, that's an interesting point. I am curious as to how the Divine would have reacted to Meredith's pronouncement of Annulment. 

Meredith would've had to answer for making the call but who knows what they could've found in the mage quarters which would've supported her idea that the Circle was beyond redeeming.

I would agree. I don't think that they Divine would have let her commence unless she had actual proof.

Well thanks to the idiocy of Orsino, she would have had her proof. He was a blood mage and had supported and sheltered blood mages.  Seriously, if they wanted Orsino to present the dangers of mage, they should have written him better for the part. I would have been fine with the ending if Orsino had been written to be what he became.

[Silfren]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Silfren wrote...

I don't think you understood Xil's point.  There are hundreds of mages in any given Circle, as I understand things, so Annulment automatically means a wholesale execution of hundreds of people.

Annulment isn't declared over one abomination.

It can be declared if the Circle is deemed irredeemable.  There's a lot of room there for considerable interpretation of what is irredeemable; abominations are NOT the only reason Annulments are or can be called.  The fact that blood magic cannot be detected and there's no way to know is one of the primary justifications given for slaughtering all the mages without an investigation or trial.

[EmperorSahlertz]

There havn't been a single annulment yet, where the Circle havn't proven itself to be irredeemable.. As dodgey as Meredith's was, she was proven correct in her suspecions when Orsino showed himself to be a Blood Mage (nevermind that the Mages continued to torch half the city in open rebellion, which would have called for retribution anyway).

[Hellion Rex]

wcholcombe wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Oooo, that's an interesting point. I am curious as to how the Divine would have reacted to Meredith's pronouncement of Annulment. 

Meredith would've had to answer for making the call but who knows what they could've found in the mage quarters which would've supported her idea that the Circle was beyond redeeming.

I would agree. I don't think that they Divine would have let her commence unless she had actual proof.

Well thanks to the idiocy of Orsino, she would have had her proof. He was a blood mage and had supported and sheltered blood mages.  Seriously, if they wanted Orsino to present the dangers of mage, they should have written him better for the part. I would have been fine with the ending if Orsino had been written to be what he became.

However, at the time, we had no actual proof of Orsino being a blood mage when Meredith called for Annulment. Only when he was cornered and desperate did he actually use it. And beyond Quentin, we know of no blood mages he "sheltered" or had knowledge of.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

There havn't been a single annulment yet, where the Circle havn't proven itself to be irredeemable.. As dodgey as Meredith's was, she was proven correct in her suspecions when Orsino showed himself to be a Blood Mage (nevermind that the Mages continued to torch half the city in open rebellion, which would have called for retribution anyway).

But Orsino being a blood mage should not condemn the whole Circle. And the mages only tried to protect themselves after Meredith called for Annulment unjustly.

[Silfren]

wcholcombe wrote...

Also, the right of annulment has only been around for 600 or so years, and we have no record of when or how often it has been used.  Or the reasons for its use, except for the 2 or possibly 3 recent uses of it.  The circle/templars existed for 200-300 or so years prior to the creation of the Right of Annulment.

On the contrary, we DO know exactly how many times Annulment has been performed.  It was, in fact, spelled out in the post directly above yours that I quoted.  At the time of that codex in Origins, it had been performed 17 times.  Adding in Ferelden, and Rivain, and Kirkwall, it brings the total to 20, in 700 years.

[Hellion Rex]

Silfren wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Silfren wrote...

I don't think you understood Xil's point.  There are hundreds of mages in any given Circle, as I understand things, so Annulment automatically means a wholesale execution of hundreds of people.

Annulment isn't declared over one abomination.

It can be declared if the Circle is deemed irredeemable.  There's a lot of room there for considerable interpretation of what is irredeemable; abominations are NOT the only reason Annulments are or can be called.  The fact that blood magic cannot be detected and there's no way to know is one of the primary justifications given for slaughtering all the mages without an investigation or trial.

Hang on. I thought abominations were pretty much the go to reason for an attempt to annul the Circle. I know Dairsmuid is an exception though.

[wcholcombe]

eluvianix wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Oooo, that's an interesting point. I am curious as to how the Divine would have reacted to Meredith's pronouncement of Annulment. 

Meredith would've had to answer for making the call but who knows what they could've found in the mage quarters which would've supported her idea that the Circle was beyond redeeming.

I would agree. I don't think that they Divine would have let her commence unless she had actual proof.

Well thanks to the idiocy of Orsino, she would have had her proof. He was a blood mage and had supported and sheltered blood mages.  Seriously, if they wanted Orsino to present the dangers of mage, they should have written him better for the part. I would have been fine with the ending if Orsino had been written to be what he became.

However, at the time, we had no actual proof of Orsino being a blood mage when Meredith called for Annulment. Only when he was cornered and desperate did he actually use it. And beyond Quentin, we know of no blood mages he "sheltered" or had knowledge of.

That is completely true.  I am just pointing out that that would be plenty of evidence for Meredith to present to the divine after the fact.

[Silfren]

eluvianix wrote...

Silfren wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

Yes, but those are largely limited to the circles and the Divine. Not every city, village, or fort has one.

Which is beside the point, which is that the technology does indeed exist, so claims that there is no means for widespread, fast communications are simply false.  

The technology is clearly available.  It should be used.  Just like there is also magic-nullifying technology, which means that there ARE potential means for exploring Circle alternatives.  The problem seems most likely to be that the Chantry insists on monopolizing the technology, than anything else.

I agree. However, in regards to the magic nullifying technology, are you referring to the Qunari arvaarad's control rod things?

Actually I was referring to the mage origin quest in DA:O.  The door warded against magic.  

[Hellion Rex]

Silfren wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Silfren wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

Yes, but those are largely limited to the circles and the Divine. Not every city, village, or fort has one.

Which is beside the point, which is that the technology does indeed exist, so claims that there is no means for widespread, fast communications are simply false.  

The technology is clearly available.  It should be used.  Just like there is also magic-nullifying technology, which means that there ARE potential means for exploring Circle alternatives.  The problem seems most likely to be that the Chantry insists on monopolizing the technology, than anything else.

I agree. However, in regards to the magic nullifying technology, are you referring to the Qunari arvaarad's control rod things?

Actually I was referring to the mage origin quest in DA:O.  The door warded against magic.  

Oh, gotcha. Nice catch! I didn't even think about that.

[LOLandStuff]

Meredith was always looking for an excuse to get rid of the Circle. It's a wonder she didn't accuse a female mage on her period of blood magic. You can see by how she nearly went hysterical the moment Orsino wanted to talk to the Grand Cleric. Anders gave her what she wanted and Orsino was a broken man by the time he got cornered.

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

There havn't been a single annulment yet, where the Circle havn't proven itself to be irredeemable.. As dodgey as Meredith's was, she was proven correct in her suspecions when Orsino showed himself to be a Blood Mage (nevermind that the Mages continued to torch half the city in open rebellion, which would have called for retribution anyway).

There have been 17 Annulments in 700 years, and only the first one gives any specifics in the lore.

Then we had the near (or actual) Annulment in Ferelden, the Annulment in Kirkwall, and the Annulment in Rivain, all in the space of 10 years.

It seems to be becoming a frequent habit, and its defintion liberally applied.

[dragonflight288]

eluvianix wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Silfren wrote...

I don't think you understood Xil's point.  There are hundreds of mages in any given Circle, as I understand things, so Annulment automatically means a wholesale execution of hundreds of people.

Annulment isn't declared over one abomination.

It can be declared if the Circle is deemed irredeemable.  There's a lot of room there for considerable interpretation of what is irredeemable; abominations are NOT the only reason Annulments are or can be called.  The fact that blood magic cannot be detected and there's no way to know is one of the primary justifications given for slaughtering all the mages without an investigation or trial.

Hang on. I thought abominations were pretty much the go to reason for an attempt to annul the Circle. I know Dairsmuid is an exception though.

Nope. If a Grand Cleric deems a Circle ireedemable, she can call for the Right of Annulment. Knight-Commanders and Seekers technically don't have the authority to order one. They can request it, but only the Grand Cleric or the Divine can call it.

[dragonflight288]

LOLandStuff wrote...

Meredith was always looking for an excuse to get rid of the Circle. It's a wonder she didn't accuse a female mage on her period of blood magic. You can see by how she nearly went hysterical the moment Orsino wanted to talk to the Grand Cleric. Anders gave her what she wanted and Orsino was a broken man by the time he got cornered.

Who says she didn't? She was blaming everything else on blood magic.

[wcholcombe]

Silfren wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

Also, the right of annulment has only been around for 600 or so years, and we have no record of when or how often it has been used.  Or the reasons for its use, except for the 2 or possibly 3 recent uses of it.  The circle/templars existed for 200-300 or so years prior to the creation of the Right of Annulment.

On the contrary, we DO know exactly how many times Annulment has been performed.  It was, in fact, spelled out in the post directly above yours that I quoted.  At the time of that codex in Origins, it had been performed 17 times.  Adding in Ferelden, and Rivain, and Kirkwall, it brings the total to 20, in 700 years.

Yes, that post was made while I was typing mine. I didn't remember the codex spelling out the number.  So roughly since its inception, the ROA has been used basically every 35 years...  Its doubtful that it is spread out like that. I would imagine ROAs get used in bunches as we have seen in the Dragon Age.  And actually, the ROA didn't occur in ferelden in my game, so it would be 19 times.  But that won't affect it too much. Also, what I find interesting in regards to the ROA was that the Lord Seeker in Asunder never used it.  That was open rebellion within a tower.  It could be that he didn't think the Divine would support it, or it could be that he didn't feel it was necessary.  Just another interesting thing about his character.  Supreme hardliner and a  bast@rd, but you can't fault the man for honestly following his convictions.

[Hellion Rex]

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

There havn't been a single annulment yet, where the Circle havn't proven itself to be irredeemable.. As dodgey as Meredith's was, she was proven correct in her suspecions when Orsino showed himself to be a Blood Mage (nevermind that the Mages continued to torch half the city in open rebellion, which would have called for retribution anyway).

There have been 17 Annulments in 700 years, and only the first one gives any specifics in the lore.

Then we had the near (or actual) Annulment in Ferelden, the Annulment in Kirkwall, and the Annulment in Rivain, all in the space of 10 years.

It seems to be becoming a frequent habit, and its defintion liberally applied.

Rivain's Annulement was, in my opinion, a preventive act to stop Rivain from rebelling and escaping as the other Circles had begun to do.

[Evandro_Junior]

We do not know that Orsino is a blood mage but we know that someone within the circle is passing books for a blood mage who lives hidden in the city.

A Letter from the Circle


My dear friend,

I have obtained the books you requested. I'll leave them at our usual hiding spot. Please collect them as soon as possible. I would hate to see them in the wrong hands!

Your last letter was fascinating! You have proven me wrong, once again, by doing the impossible. I shouldn't have doubted your resolve, and I hope you will keep me apprised of further progress.

Your friend and colleague,
O

Modifié par Evandro_Junior, 24 octobre 2013 - 07:05 .

[Hellion Rex]

dragonflight288 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Silfren wrote...

I don't think you understood Xil's point.  There are hundreds of mages in any given Circle, as I understand things, so Annulment automatically means a wholesale execution of hundreds of people.

Annulment isn't declared over one abomination.

It can be declared if the Circle is deemed irredeemable.  There's a lot of room there for considerable interpretation of what is irredeemable; abominations are NOT the only reason Annulments are or can be called.  The fact that blood magic cannot be detected and there's no way to know is one of the primary justifications given for slaughtering all the mages without an investigation or trial.

Hang on. I thought abominations were pretty much the go to reason for an attempt to annul the Circle. I know Dairsmuid is an exception though.

Nope. If a Grand Cleric deems a Circle ireedemable, she can call for the Right of Annulment. Knight-Commanders and Seekers technically don't have the authority to order one. They can request it, but only the Grand Cleric or the Divine can call it.

I get that. But I was referring to the reason for actually trying to call for Annulment.

[Hellion Rex]

wcholcombe wrote...

Silfren wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

Also, the right of annulment has only been around for 600 or so years, and we have no record of when or how often it has been used.  Or the reasons for its use, except for the 2 or possibly 3 recent uses of it.  The circle/templars existed for 200-300 or so years prior to the creation of the Right of Annulment.

On the contrary, we DO know exactly how many times Annulment has been performed.  It was, in fact, spelled out in the post directly above yours that I quoted.  At the time of that codex in Origins, it had been performed 17 times.  Adding in Ferelden, and Rivain, and Kirkwall, it brings the total to 20, in 700 years.

Yes, that post was made while I was typing mine. I didn't remember the codex spelling out the number.  So roughly since its inception, the ROA has been used basically every 35 years...  Its doubtful that it is spread out like that. I would imagine ROAs get used in bunches as we have seen in the Dragon Age.  And actually, the ROA didn't occur in ferelden in my game, so it would be 19 times.  But that won't affect it too much. Also, what I find interesting in regards to the ROA was that the Lord Seeker in Asunder never used it.  That was open rebellion within a tower.  It could be that he didn't think the Divine would support it, or it could be that he didn't feel it was necessary.  Just another interesting thing about his character.  Supreme hardliner and a  bast@rd, but you can't fault the man for honestly following his convictions.

I would consider the fighting at the end Lambert's attempted Annulment.

[Reaverwind]

eluvianix wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

There havn't been a single annulment yet, where the Circle havn't proven itself to be irredeemable.. As dodgey as Meredith's was, she was proven correct in her suspecions when Orsino showed himself to be a Blood Mage (nevermind that the Mages continued to torch half the city in open rebellion, which would have called for retribution anyway).

There have been 17 Annulments in 700 years, and only the first one gives any specifics in the lore.

Then we had the near (or actual) Annulment in Ferelden, the Annulment in Kirkwall, and the Annulment in Rivain, all in the space of 10 years.

It seems to be becoming a frequent habit, and its defintion liberally applied.

Rivain's Annulement was, in my opinion, a preventive act to stop Rivain from rebelling and escaping as the other Circles had begun to do.

I was under the impression it was annulled because word on that circle's questionable practices had finally gotten back to Val Royeaux.

Modifié par Reaverwind, 24 octobre 2013 - 07:08 .

[wcholcombe]

Evandro_Junior wrote...

We do not know that Orsino is a blood mage but we know that someone within the circle is passing books for a blood mage who lives hidden in the city.

A Letter from the Circle


My dear friend,

I have obtained the books you requested. I'll leave them at our usual hiding spot. Please collect them as soon as possible. I would hate to see them in the wrong hands!

Your last letter was fascinating! You have proven me wrong, once again, by doing the impossible. I shouldn't have doubted your resolve, and I hope you will keep me apprised of further progress.

Your friend and colleague,
O

Actually-- Orsino admits it. I don't remember which way it works, but if you sister is still alive in one of the endings he admits to being O and aiding Quentin.  He claims to not have realized how far Quentin was going, but he still never stopped him.  And he turns himself into a Harvester through using blood magic. IE making himself a blood mage.

[Silfren]

wcholcombe wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

Silfren wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

Yes, but those are largely limited to the circles and the Divine. Not every city, village, or fort has one.

Which is beside the point, which is that the technology does indeed exist, so claims that there is no means for widespread, fast communications are simply false.  

The technology is clearly available.  It should be used.  Just like there is also magic-nullifying technology, which means that there ARE potential means for exploring Circle alternatives.  The problem seems most likely to be that the Chantry insists on monopolizing the technology, than anything else.

How available is this technology, really? I think our modern-day minds take a lot of things for granted in these days of mass-production. Imagine a world like Thedas, where they haven't even begun to industrialize. How are these devices produced? How much would it cost? Could your average village even hope to obtain one?

I imagine it requires magic to use sending stones.  Plus, if an abomination wacks an entire tower-which nearly happened in DAO- no one is going to be able to send anything out if they are dead.  Then the other towers still have to get templars to said tower-by horse- and then they have to track down where the thing rampaged to.  The amount of time this would take in the world of Thedas would be months probably before the templars even reached the tower.  If this occurred in some remote village.....good luck.

This is simply an argument for not keeping all your eggs in one basket.  There's an obvious fallacy in locking up all your magic users in one tiny place if you then find yourself in need of magic users, only they've all been wiped out because they were totally contained.  A great many stories have been written using exactly this problem: someone tries to contain a special something all to themselves and not let anyone else have access to it...and then one day, the fact of all that special something being conveniently isolated in one spot is exploited by the bad guy destroying it, and then the good guys find themselves up the sh*t creek due to that short-sighted thinking.

Also, we have lots of fancy communication technology in our world that isn't available to small cities and towns and even large cities.  Just because it exists doesn't mean it is capable of being made available to the masses.

I'd have to be given a good reason for why it can't be made more available, then, and nowhere in DA have we been given one.  We've been shown that the technology does indeed exist, however, which I think means simply that if the technology isn't yet able to be made widely available, then that is only an argument for putting in the research and development to make it more widely available. 

Since the games haven't said a single word on this technology not being capable of being more widespread, I'm not willing to believe yet that it can't be.  My own personal suspicion is that it's more likely that Orlais does not want to make available any technology which gives it a distinct advantage over other nations.

Modifié par Silfren, 24 octobre 2013 - 07:20 .

[dragonflight288]

eluvianix wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

There havn't been a single annulment yet, where the Circle havn't proven itself to be irredeemable.. As dodgey as Meredith's was, she was proven correct in her suspecions when Orsino showed himself to be a Blood Mage (nevermind that the Mages continued to torch half the city in open rebellion, which would have called for retribution anyway).

There have been 17 Annulments in 700 years, and only the first one gives any specifics in the lore.

Then we had the near (or actual) Annulment in Ferelden, the Annulment in Kirkwall, and the Annulment in Rivain, all in the space of 10 years.

It seems to be becoming a frequent habit, and its defintion liberally applied.

Rivain's Annulement was, in my opinion, a preventive act to stop Rivain from rebelling and escaping as the other Circles had begun to do.

If that's the case (I personally don't think so) then what happened was the sanctioned slaughter of hundreds of men, women and children as a preventative measure when it comes to war.

That's a war crime.

[Hellion Rex]

Reaverwind wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

There havn't been a single annulment yet, where the Circle havn't proven itself to be irredeemable.. As dodgey as Meredith's was, she was proven correct in her suspecions when Orsino showed himself to be a Blood Mage (nevermind that the Mages continued to torch half the city in open rebellion, which would have called for retribution anyway).

There have been 17 Annulments in 700 years, and only the first one gives any specifics in the lore.

Then we had the near (or actual) Annulment in Ferelden, the Annulment in Kirkwall, and the Annulment in Rivain, all in the space of 10 years.

It seems to be becoming a frequent habit, and its defintion liberally applied.

Rivain's Annulement was, in my opinion, a preventive act to stop Rivain from rebelling and escaping as the other Circles had begun to do.

I was under the impression it was annulled because word on that circle's questionable practices had finally gotten back to Val Royeaux?

But this all occurred after the events of Asunder. It is just a little reading in between the lines on my part.