1420 réponses à ce sujet

[dragonflight288]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The Annulment at Dairsmuid entry in World of Thedas describes it happening after the other Circles rose up.

But did it happen before or after the templars and seeker left the Chantry? That's the heart of it.

OK I haven't read Asunder but I had thought Lambert annulled the Nevarran Accord immediantely after the incident at the White Spire?

At the very end, he wrote to the Divine and declared it void. In that same chapter, we get the news of the annulment of Dairsmuid.

It's not clear which happened first.

[The Hierophant]

dragonflight288 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Also, given the fact that the Qun is more popular on Rivain than anywhere in Thedas and that there are Andrastians there as well, I'm going to say that not everyone is fond of the idea of Abominations ruling over the population.

edit: ninja'ed

If this is the case, then it was an illegal Annulment.

Only if they weren't under borders from the Divine, as the Rivaini branch of the Chantry has failed to do their job.

Any annulment needs the authority of the Grand Cleric. Without that authority, it's illegal.

Rivain's Chantry is comprimised, i doubt their authority is valid anyway.

[EmperorSahlertz]

That depends on exactly when after the Circles' uprising that Lambert also seceded from the CHantry. And wether or not the Templars annuling Dairmuid was still loyal to the Chantry or not. Given the letter says that the Chantry sent the Templars, I'd say it would sound like they are Chantry authorized.....

[dragonflight288]

eluvianix wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Also, given the fact that the Qun is more popular on Rivain than anywhere in Thedas and that there are Andrastians there as well, I'm going to say that not everyone is fond of the idea of Abominations ruling over the population.

edit: ninja'ed

If this is the case, then it was an illegal Annulment.

The Circle is actively creating Abominations, and refused to stop the practice. That right there is grounds for Annulment.

Again, without the authority given from a Grand Cleric or the Divine, it's illegal.

Or a Knight-Commander. They have the authority when the Grand Cleric or Divine cannot be reached.

And the Grand Cleric of Rivain was in reach. so was the Divine, since the chantry sent the Seekers out in the first place.

[Jaison1986]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Also, given the fact that the Qun is more popular on Rivain than anywhere in Thedas and that there are Andrastians there as well, I'm going to say that not everyone is fond of the idea of Abominations ruling over the population.

edit: ninja'ed

If this is the case, then it was an illegal Annulment.

The Circle is actively creating Abominations, and refused to stop the practice. That right there is grounds for Annulment.

That's unreasonable. They weren't abominations as far as we know. They were spirit healers. As they communed with spirits, not demons.

[dragonflight288]

The Hierophant wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Also, given the fact that the Qun is more popular on Rivain than anywhere in Thedas and that there are Andrastians there as well, I'm going to say that not everyone is fond of the idea of Abominations ruling over the population.

edit: ninja'ed

If this is the case, then it was an illegal Annulment.

Only if they weren't under borders from the Divine, as the Rivaini branch of the Chantry has failed to do their job.

Any annulment needs the authority of the Grand Cleric. Without that authority, it's illegal.

Rivain's Chantry is comprimised, i doubt their authority is valid anyway.

We could go back and forth on this forever.

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

There havn't been a single annulment yet, where the Circle havn't proven itself to be irredeemable.. As dodgey as Meredith's was, she was proven correct in her suspecions when Orsino showed himself to be a Blood Mage (nevermind that the Mages continued to torch half the city in open rebellion, which would have called for retribution anyway).

There have been 17 Annulments in 700 years, and only the first one gives any specifics in the lore.

Then we had the near (or actual) Annulment in Ferelden, the Annulment in Kirkwall, and the Annulment in Rivain, all in the space of 10 years.

It seems to be becoming a frequent habit, and its defintion liberally applied.

I can't say I blame the Templars for believing the Ferelden Circle lost. Had it not been for the God Emperor of Mankind.. .err.. I mean the Grey Warden, and his godlike skillset, then the Circle would have been lost for sure.
Kirkwall was the most dodgey of the recent Annulments, but still a case could be made for it being invoked. The Circle had previously tried to overthrow the Knight Commander, and the First Enchanter was a Blood Mage. Even though the last one was an unknown at that time, Meredith had her suspecions, and Orsino tried to hinder any and all investigations into the matter. Even so, Orsino still harbored a Blood Mage, maybe several.
Dairsmund was a giant cluster ****. The Templars initially tried to force the Circle to conform, evidently with minemal loss of life. But since the mages resisted forcefully, the Tempalrs felt the Annulment was needed, since again the Circle was in open rebellion.

Given that the First Enchanter indicates that the templars thought a little bloodshed would bring the mages in line, I don't think they could be said to be at fault for resisting forcefully.  "A little bloodshed" does NOT imply that the templars tried to do things peacefully or with diplomacy, and it's hardly excusable if they tried to do it with "minimal loss of life" if they nevertheless thought it would be a good idea to start by drawing blood in the first place.

[MisterJB]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...
OK I haven't read Asunder but I had thought Lambert annulled the Nevarran Accord immediately after the incident at the White Spire?

No, he only did it after the mageas voted to end the Circle.

They started it.

[Hellion Rex]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The Annulment at Dairsmuid entry in World of Thedas describes it happening after the other Circles rose up.

But did it happen before or after the templars and seeker left the Chantry? That's the heart of it.

OK I haven't read Asunder but I had thought Lambert annulled the Nevarran Accord immediately after the incident at the White Spire?

Pretty much.

[Reaverwind]

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Also, given the fact that the Qun is more popular on Rivain than anywhere in Thedas and that there are Andrastians there as well, I'm going to say that not everyone is fond of the idea of Abominations ruling over the population.

edit: ninja'ed

If this is the case, then it was an illegal Annulment.

The Circle is actively creating Abominations, and refused to stop the practice. That right there is grounds for Annulment.

Again, without the authority given from a Grand Cleric or the Divine, it's illegal.

The Codex does say the Chantry called the RoA.

[The Hierophant]

Jaison1986 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Also, given the fact that the Qun is more popular on Rivain than anywhere in Thedas and that there are Andrastians there as well, I'm going to say that not everyone is fond of the idea of Abominations ruling over the population.

edit: ninja'ed

If this is the case, then it was an illegal Annulment.

The Circle is actively creating Abominations, and refused to stop the practice. That right there is grounds for Annulment.

That's unreasonable. They weren't abominations as far as we know. They were spirit healers. As they communed with spirits, not demons.

Seers are not spirit healers.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

MisterJB wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...
OK I haven't read Asunder but I had thought Lambert annulled the Nevarran Accord immediately after the incident at the White Spire?

No, he only did it after the mageas voted to end the Circle.

They started it.

Well my point is whenever he did it, it was before news of the uprisings reached Rivain.

[Hellion Rex]

Hang on! Just reread the entry. It says that the Chantry in Ayesleigh sent Seekers. Ayesleigh is a Rivaini city.

Modifié par eluvianix, 24 octobre 2013 - 07:43 .

[MisterJB]

Jaison1986 wrote...
That's unreasonable. They weren't abominations as far as we know. They were spirit healers. As they communed with spirits, not demons.

No, they weren't. Spirits Healers ask spirits for help but never allow them inside their bodies.
The Seers activelly seek to be possessed by spirits.

There's a world of difference there. It's the different between DAI Anders "I hate Chantry oversight as much as the next mage but splitting completely will just lead to a massacre." and DA2 Anders "There can be no peace...There is no one I would not kill to see mages free...I would drown us all in blood to see you safe."

Modifié par MisterJB, 24 octobre 2013 - 07:44 .

[The Hierophant]

dragonflight288 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Also, given the fact that the Qun is more popular on Rivain than anywhere in Thedas and that there are Andrastians there as well, I'm going to say that not everyone is fond of the idea of Abominations ruling over the population.

edit: ninja'ed

If this is the case, then it was an illegal Annulment.

Only if they weren't under borders from the Divine, as the Rivaini branch of the Chantry has failed to do their job.

Any annulment needs the authority of the Grand Cleric. Without that authority, it's illegal.

Rivain's Chantry is comprimised, i doubt their authority is valid anyway.

We could go back and forth on this forever.

Not really as there's no mention of the Seekers needing a Grand Cleric's permission for an RoA. 

Modifié par The Hierophant, 24 octobre 2013 - 07:46 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Actually, there's a small chance it could be in Antiva. It's sort of in a nebulous area on the map considered there are no clear borders.

[The Hierophant]

eluvianix wrote...

Hang on! Just reread the entry. It says that the Chantry in Ayesleigh sent Seekers. Ayesleigh is a Rivaini city.

For real which page?

[Hellion Rex]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Actually, there's a small chance it could be in Antiva. It's sort of in a nebulous area on the map considered there are no clear borders.

Just looked at the Rivain page. Ayesleigh is listed as a city.

[dragonflight288]

Not really as there's no mention of the Seekers needing a Grand Cleric's permission for an RoA.

http://dragonage.wik...ht_of_Annulment

The seekers don't have the authority to enact one.

[Hellion Rex]

The Hierophant wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Hang on! Just reread the entry. It says that the Chantry in Ayesleigh sent Seekers. Ayesleigh is a Rivaini city.

For real which page?

I am looking at the Wiki. It is in Rivella's letter before her death.

[Jaison1986]

MisterJB wrote...

Jaison1986 wrote...
That's unreasonable. They weren't abominations as far as we know. They were spirit healers. As they communed with spirits, not demons.

No, they weren't. Spirits Healers ask spirits for help but never allow them inside their bodies.
The Seers activelly seek to be possessed by spirits.

There's a world of difference there. It's the different between DAI Anders "I hate Chantry oversight as much as the next mage but splitting completely will just lead to a massacre." and DA2 Anders "There can be no peace...There is no one I would not kill to see mages free...I would drown us all in blood to see you safe."

It's never said if they were blood mages neither, so we might never know. But they weren't abominations. Otherwise they would be just rampaging the nearby villages. Their only crime was to try an different life style that didn't followed the chantry rules. They were never a harm to society. The only harm was caused by the Chantry itself.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Jaison1986 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Also, given the fact that the Qun is more popular on Rivain than anywhere in Thedas and that there are Andrastians there as well, I'm going to say that not everyone is fond of the idea of Abominations ruling over the population.

edit: ninja'ed

If this is the case, then it was an illegal Annulment.

The Circle is actively creating Abominations, and refused to stop the practice. That right there is grounds for Annulment.

That's unreasonable. They weren't abominations as far as we know. They were spirit healers. As they communed with spirits, not demons.

Spirit Healers aren't possessed. Spirit Healers are just amges with a rare conenction to spirits of the Fade. A Seer is a female mage who is literally possessed by a spirit. Ergo an Abomination.

[MisterJB]

dragonflight288 wrote...
http://dragonage.wik...ht_of_Annulment

The seekers don't have the authority to enact one.

That also says that if there is no acess to Chantry leadership, then that someone like a Knight Commander can call for it. The Seekers should have the same authority.
If the Grand Cleric of Rivain was aware of what was happening and allowed it, then she was unworthy of her position and they couldn't just send word to Antiva while there were Abominations killing Templars and Seekers.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

eluvianix wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Actually, there's a small chance it could be in Antiva. It's sort of in a nebulous area on the map considered there are no clear borders.

Just looked at the Rivain page. Ayesleigh is listed as a city.

Yes it is. But I did consider the DA Wiki might be wrong. In the Fourth Blight it is said "Antiva was freed from darkspawn at the Battle of Ayesleigh" but that could also be because Garahel killed Andoral in the battle too.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 24 octobre 2013 - 07:54 .