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[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
http://dragonage.wik...ht_of_Annulment

The seekers don't have the authority to enact one.

That also says that if there is no acess to Chantry leadership, then that someone like a Knight Commander can call for it. The Seekers should have the same authority.
If the Grand Cleric of Rivain was aware of what was happening and allowed it, then she was unworthy of her position and they couldn't just send word to Antiva while there were Abominations killing Templars and Seekers.

It says Knight Commanders can invoke but not carry out the action immediately.

[dragonflight288]

MisterJB wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
http://dragonage.wik...ht_of_Annulment

The seekers don't have the authority to enact one.

That also says that if there is no acess to Chantry leadership, then that someone like a Knight Commander can call for it. The Seekers should have the same authority.
If the Grand Cleric of Rivain was aware of what was happening and allowed it, then she was unworthy of her position and they couldn't just send word to Antiva while there were Abominations killing Templars and Seekers.

The Grand Cleric was in reach though.

[wcholcombe]

In the entry it says the chantry sent the seekers out after the rebellion.
In Asunder, the mages holed up where they vote for independence recieve the news that the Circle has been annulled prior to their vote. The chapter where Lambert gets the templars to agree to leave the circle happens after the chapter where the mages vote.

So thereby I would say the circle was ROA'd prior to the Templars leaving the chantry. The question of who granted the ROA is not specified. It only states that the mages were winning until the Templars declared a ROA. However, it also doesn't sound like the Templars were planning on doing anything other than bringing the mages in line with how a circle was supposed to function when the mages fought back and the ROA was declared.

[Hellion Rex]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Actually, there's a small chance it could be in Antiva. It's sort of in a nebulous area on the map considered there are no clear borders.

Just looked at the Rivain page. Ayesleigh is listed as a city.

Yes it is. But I did consider the DA Wiki might be wrong. In the Fourth Blight it is said "Antiva was freed from darkspawn at the Battle of Ayesleigh" but that could also be because Garahel killed Andoral during the battle.

Ayesleigh is listed under the major cities section of Rivain.

[The Hierophant]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Not really as there's no mention of the Seekers needing a Grand Cleric's permission for an RoA.

http://dragonage.wik...ht_of_Annulment

The seekers don't have the authority to enact one.

Thanks for the correction.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Why are we even presuming the Grand Cleric of Rivian knew what was going on? The Circle would have every reason imaginable to keep such information from her.

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...
Kirkwall: Incorrect. Meredith specifically justifies it as "the people will demand blood." Her justification has nothing to do with abominations or blood magic.

Mages from the Circle were constantly becoming Abominations; the First-Enchanter was a blood mage and an Abomination commited a terrorist attack. That's grounds for Annulment.

Rivain: Incorrect. The mages were in contact with their families, and were continuing practicing the long-honored and widely supported traditions of their homeland inside the circle itself, and weren't exactly out among the populace, lording themselves over them. The only people their practices annoyed, was the Seeker who discovered they were visiting family members, and the big-wigs in Val Reyeaux.

The practices of the Seers involves allowing yourself to be possessed; which makes you an Abomination; and the World of Thedas page 80 makes it absolutely clear, without a shadow of a doubt, that Seers rule the communities of Rivain. I can copy it word by word if you want.
Therefore, Abominations ruling over man.
It doesn't matter if the locals enjoy this nonsense or not, these are two big no-nos to the Chantry.
If the local tradition involved sacrifing a virgin each week to appease the sun god, should we just go along with it?
Again those are grounds for Annulment.

Given that the available lore on Rivain indicates that it is extremely community oriented and there is considerable focus on the general welfare of the people, I'd stop clinging to literalistic dogma here.  Yes, the Circle of Rivain was technically in violation of rules.  However, by ALL appearances, it was working well to the benefit of Rivain as a whole.  The silly argument of "the people were going along with it doesn't mean it wasn't a bad practice" is a stupid one.  We have a fair amount of info on Rivain and NONE of it even hints that the people are routinely terrorized by demons or blood mages or rampaging abominations.  All evidence points to Rivain's system being peaceful and acceptable to everyone.

The irony here is that the act of Annulling the Circle may well have created the rebellion it was ostensibly aiming to prevent.

[MisterJB]

Jaison1986 wrote...
It's never said if they were blood mages neither, so we might never know. But they weren't abominations. Otherwise they would be just rampaging the nearby villages. Their only crime was to try an different life style that didn't followed the chantry rules. They were never a harm to society. The only harm was caused by the Chantry itself.

As evidenced by Anders, spirits are just as dangerous as demons. Given the fact that mages do not need to be possessed in order to be alive or feel emotions, I'd say we should draw the line at "Let's place alien beings that can be corrupted by human emotions into the heads of people that can set others on fire with their mind."
There is no way no Seer ever did not go on a rampage. Those people are not converting to the Qun by accident.

Also, the mages of Rivain were rulling Rivain. It doesn't seem convenient to you that one of the few countries that are accepting of magic happens to be ruled by mages?

[Reaverwind]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why are we even presuming the Grand Cleric of Rivian knew what was going on? The Circle would have every reason imaginable to keep such information from her.

I rather suspect she didn't, and did in fact authorize the RoA once she did.

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

That depends on exactly when after the Circles' uprising that Lambert also seceded from the CHantry. And wether or not the Templars annuling Dairmuid was still loyal to the Chantry or not. Given the letter says that the Chantry sent the Templars, I'd say it would sound like they are Chantry authorized.....

Authorized to investigate perhaps.  I agree that it makes no sense for the Chantry, under Divine Justinia, to have authorized Annulment.  It's a complete reversal of Justinia's characterization.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

eluvianix wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Actually, there's a small chance it could be in Antiva. It's sort of in a nebulous area on the map considered there are no clear borders.

Just looked at the Rivain page. Ayesleigh is listed as a city.

Yes it is. But I did consider the DA Wiki might be wrong. In the Fourth Blight it is said "Antiva was freed from darkspawn at the Battle of Ayesleigh" but that could also be because Garahel killed Andoral during the battle.

Ayesleigh is listed under the major cities section of Rivain.

Where? The Dragon Age Wiki? The thing that I just considered might be wrong? I'm not saying I believe it's definitely in Antiva but there's no clear indicator to where Antiva ends and Rivain begins. The fact that Ayseleigh is in Rivain doesn't appear to be sourced, so it would appear to be an estimate on where it would fall in the border.

[wcholcombe]

On the ROA in DAO, it looked like it was up to Gregoire whether or not the ROA was declared. I may not be remembering it correctly, but I don't recall him saying anything about getting approval from the Grand Cleric.

 I  imagine, that there are plenty of templars at this circle who were fine with what was going on. The question would be whether they were forced into going along with the seeker or if he simply removed them from the circle. Alla whatever Lambert did to the Knight Commander at the White Spire for being too lenient.

Modifié par wcholcombe, 24 octobre 2013 - 08:07 .

[Silfren]

Reaverwind wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Also, given the fact that the Qun is more popular on Rivain than anywhere in Thedas and that there are Andrastians there as well, I'm going to say that not everyone is fond of the idea of Abominations ruling over the population.

edit: ninja'ed

If this is the case, then it was an illegal Annulment.

The Circle is actively creating Abominations, and refused to stop the practice. That right there is grounds for Annulment.

Again, without the authority given from a Grand Cleric or the Divine, it's illegal.

The Codex does say the Chantry called the RoA.

Does it?  I thought it said only the Chantry ordered an investigation.

[The Hierophant]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why are we even presuming the Grand Cleric of Rivian knew what was going on? The Circle would have every reason imaginable to keep such information from her.

I find it unlikely that all the Templar in Dairsmiud ignored their duties. Someone at some point had to have mentioned the Circle's state to the GC.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 24 octobre 2013 - 08:05 .

[Silfren]

wcholcombe wrote...

On the ROA in DAO, it looked like it was up to Gregoire whether or not the ROA was declared. I may not be remembering it correctly, but I don't recall him saying anything about getting approval from the Grand Cleric.

Also, it is extremely possible that the circle in question is just as isolated as the Circle in Ferelden. I also imagine, that there are plenty of templars at this circle who were fine with what was going on. The question would be whether they were forced into going along with the seeker or if he simply removed them from the circle. Alla whatever Lambert did to the Knight Commander at the White Spire for being too lenient.

He does. He says explicitly that he sent word to Denerim calling for the Right of Annulment. 

[Reaverwind]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Actually, there's a small chance it could be in Antiva. It's sort of in a nebulous area on the map considered there are no clear borders.

Just looked at the Rivain page. Ayesleigh is listed as a city.

Yes it is. But I did consider the DA Wiki might be wrong. In the Fourth Blight it is said "Antiva was freed from darkspawn at the Battle of Ayesleigh" but that could also be because Garahel killed Andoral during the battle.

Ayesleigh is listed under the major cities section of Rivain.

Where? The Dragon Age Wiki? The thing that I just considered might be wrong? I'm not saying I believe it's definitely in Antiva but there's no clear indicator to where Antiva ends and Rivain begins. The fact that Ayseleigh is in Rivain doesn't appear to be sourced, so it would appear to be an estimate on where it would fall in the border.

Actually, the entry states that Rivain was freed from the Darkspawn at the Battle of Ayesleigh. You probably confused it with the entry above, where it describes the Fourth Blight starting in Antiva.

[wcholcombe]

ok then, as I said I was wrong.

[The Hierophant]

So the Antivan GC probably approved of the RoA?

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...

Also, given the fact that the Qun is more popular on Rivain than anywhere in Thedas and that there are Andrastians there as well, I'm going to say that not everyone is fond of the idea of Abominations ruling over the population.

edit: ninja'ed

It is also quite possible--even very likely--that the Qun in Rivain looks markedly different from the Qun elsewhere, just as the Chantry itself does from other Andrastian states.  Given that the Chantry, free mages, and the Qun all had a presence, and it appeared to be a largely peaceful one, I seriously doubt that people were converting to the Qun en masse in order to escape rogue mages.  If free possessed mages were causing that much of a problem, I maintain that we WOULD have heard about it, because the people themselves would be raising holy hell for the Chantry to do something, or else the Chantry itself would simply have noticed a problem and dealt with it.

[wcholcombe]

We don't know. The account in WOT makes it sound like the Templars didn't come to Annul them and that only happened when they refused to step in line with how the Seekers expected a circle to behave. When the mages fought back a ROA was called. It would make sense to think with a GC so close they would have gone through proper channels, but if they were getting their butts handed to them a seeker may have over stepped his authority in panic.

[MisterJB]

Silfren wrote...
Given that the available lore on Rivain indicates that it is extremely community oriented and there is considerable focus on the general welfare of the people, I'd stop clinging to literalistic dogma here.  Yes, the Circle of Rivain was technically in violation of rules.  However, by ALL appearances, it was working well to the benefit of Rivain as a whole.  The silly argument of "the people were going along with it doesn't mean it wasn't a bad practice" is a stupid one.  We have a fair amount of info on Rivain and NONE of it even hints that the people are routinely terrorized by demons or blood mages or rampaging abominations.  All evidence points to Rivain's system being peaceful and acceptable to everyone.

The irony here is that the act of Annulling the Circle may well have created the rebellion it was ostensibly aiming to prevent.

The extent of the evidence we have are the statements that certain segments of the Rivain population feel attached to their Seers. However, given the fact that Rivain is divided between traditionalists; who like mages; and Andrastians and Qunari; who don't; it's obvious that that love is not universal.

If we assume that there must be reasons for these traditionalists Rivains to like their Seers; then the opposite must also be true. That Andrastian and Qunari Rivain have their reasons for disliking the Seers.

Also, the fact that people accept it doesn't mean it isn't a bad practice. After all, the Dalish are an authoritarian system where supreme executive power is given to someone who possesses an attribute that in no way should make him/her suitable for government: magic. And the elves seem to like it.

Modifié par MisterJB, 24 octobre 2013 - 08:14 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Reaverwind wrote...

Actually, the entry states that Rivain was freed from the Darkspawn at the Battle of Ayesleigh. You probably confused it with the entry above, where it describes the Fourth Blight starting in Antiva.

Actually I was thinking of the section on the Fourth Blight in World of Thedas. It says "Antiva was freed from darkspawn during the infamous battle in 5:24 Exalted at the city of Ayseleigh, where Garahel died striking Andoral's killing blow." But I suppose that's probably a fair indicator that Ayseleigh is in Rivain.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 24 octobre 2013 - 08:18 .

[Silfren]

eluvianix wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Also, given the fact that the Qun is more popular on Rivain than anywhere in Thedas and that there are Andrastians there as well, I'm going to say that not everyone is fond of the idea of Abominations ruling over the population.

edit: ninja'ed

If this is the case, then it was an illegal Annulment.

The Circle is actively creating Abominations, and refused to stop the practice. That right there is grounds for Annulment.

Again, without the authority given from a Grand Cleric or the Divine, it's illegal.

Or a Knight-Commander. They have the authority when the Grand Cleric or Divine cannot be reached.

Edit: Scratch that. The Knight Commanders have the ability to invoke, but not outright perform the act immediately.

Bit of a nitpick: Invoking the Right IS performing the Act of Annulment.  Knight Commanders can't invoke it on their own authority unless something has happened to make going through the proper channels impossible.  In any normal situation, the K-C has to gain permission for the Right from a Grand Cleric (or the Divine) BEFORE invoking Annulment.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

MisterJB wrote...
The extent of the evidence we have are the statements that certain segments of the Rivain population feel attached to their Seers. However, given the fact that Rivain is divided between traditionalists; who like mages; and Andrastians and Qunari; who don't; it's obvious that that love is not universal.

If we assume that there must be reasons for these traditionalists Rivains to like their Seers; then the opposite must also be true. That Andrastian and Qunari Rivain have their reasons for disliking the Seers.

Also, the fact that people accept it doesn't mean it isn't a bad practice. After all, the Dalish are an authoritarian system where supreme executive power is given to someone who possesses an attribute that in no way should make him/her suitable for government: magic. And the elves seem to like it.

I don't think it's fair to try to infer too much about Rivain as a whole when we know so little. The impression I get is that Seers are still extremely popular, even Kont-aar and other Rivaini Qunari settlements have seers.

[MisterJB]

Silfren wrote...
It is also quite possible--even very likely--that the Qun in Rivain looks markedly different from the Qun elsewhere, just as the Chantry itself does from other Andrastian states.  Given that the Chantry, free mages, and the Qun all had a presence, and it appeared to be a largely peaceful one, I seriously doubt that people were converting to the Qun en masse in order to escape rogue mages.  If free possessed mages were causing that much of a problem, I maintain that we WOULD have heard about it, because the people themselves would be raising holy hell for the Chantry to do something, or else the Chantry itself would simply have noticed a problem and dealt with it.

It has been said that the rivains see Abominations as natural disasters. This would mean that, rather than rogue mages being entirely absent, the rivains have simply learned to endure it like others endure thypoons.
Of course, I don't expect you to believe me since I can't locate the source at the moment.

Also, the Qun and the Chantry are very different. The rigidity of the Qun is legendary; I seriously doubt the Qun in Rivain will look any different from the Qun in Seheron. Which would mean any rivain mages would receive the usual treatment and yet, these rivains who are, supposedly, so attached to their Seers seems to accept it.