1420 réponses à ce sujet

[Silfren]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I think we need to learn more about the Rivaini Seers in order to make a point about them one way or another. I got the sense though that Wynne and Anders were bonded to their spirits in different fashions.

Funnily enough I've thought that both Wynne and Anders possibly stumbled into the same kind of possession that the seers themselves engage in.

[The Hierophant]

Silfren wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I think we need to learn more about the Rivaini Seers in order to make a point about them one way or another. I got the sense though that Wynne and Anders were bonded to their spirits in different fashions.

Funnily enough I've thought that both Wynne and Anders possibly stumbled into the same kind of possession that the seers themselves engage in.

That's troubling.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Hierophant wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Well Kont-aar must have a seer too because that's apparently who wrote the codex entries we read about Qunari and Saarebas in Dragon Age 2. And the village that Genetivi found refuge in was in the north of Rivain. I don't think the "true" Qunari have any legal authority over anywhere in Rivain, even the qunari villages. Genetivi also refers to the ox men of Par Vollen as the "allies" of the leaders of Kont-aar, not their superiors.

Thanks for the clarification, but shouldn't the seer's existence in Kont-aar muddle their relations to Par Vollen?

Maybe. It's hard to say because we don't know the nuance of their relationship. The Qunari don't seem to mind as much if the bas endanger themselves with mages, though. Perhaps they don't consider it their responsiblity. And since the Arishok can still consider a Mage Hawke Basalit-an and Sten doesn't attack Morrigan, Wynne or Mage Wardens on sight, then perhaps the Qunari can respect Rivaini Seers who believe there is wisdom in the Qun, even if they don't follow it "properly."

[MisterJB]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...
The "mainstream" Qunari don't control Rivain though. The locals developed their own version blended with their own traditions and wouldn't necessarily follow everything the Par Vollen Qunari do.  And in Rivain I think the Rivaini reverence for seers superceds the Qunari fear of mages. I believe that's part of why they aren't considered true Qunari by the Ariqun. They've adopted the "ordered" tenants of the Qun but that doesn't necessarily mean they also adopted to the saarebas treatment for mages.

But in the comics we saw the North of Rivain and we saw armed ox-(wo)men "patrolling" the streets as well as teaching at "temples".
While they might not hold full control over the qunari rivain; even talking to an unbound Saarebas means death for the one who commited that mistake (see DA2 Arvaraad); I doubt they would be willing to tolerate mages leading communities regardless of how tenuous their influence might be.

[wcholcombe]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Well Kont-aar must have a seer too because that's apparently who wrote the codex entries we read about Qunari and Saarebas in Dragon Age 2. And the village that Genetivi found refuge in was in the north of Rivain. I don't think the "true" Qunari have any legal authority over anywhere in Rivain, even the qunari villages. Genetivi also refers to the ox men of Par Vollen as the "allies" of the leaders of Kont-aar, not their superiors.

Thanks for the clarification, but shouldn't the seer's existence in Kont-aar muddle their relations to Par Vollen?

Maybe. It's hard to say because we don't know the nuance of their relationship. The Qunari don't seem to mind as much if the bas endanger themselves with mages, though. Perhaps they don't consider it their responsiblity. And since the Arishok can still consider a Mage Hawke Basalit-an and Sten doesn't attack Morrigan, Wynne or Mage Wardens on sight, then perhaps the Qunari can respect Rivaini Seers who believe there is wisdom in the Qun, even if they don't follow it "properly."

Doubtful.  The Qunari aren't considered the most accepting of people.  Allister is considered Baslit-an but that doesn't prevent Arishok/Sten from telling him to stay in his room and trying to kill him when Allister tries to leave the island.  In DA2, Hawke wasn't Qunari and therefore it wasn't the Arishok's duty to slap him in chains.  They weren't in Qunari land and he wasn't seeking to convert Hawke.  Sten doesn't attack any of the mages in DAO because that wasn't his mission and he wasn't seeking to convert them.

The Rivaini Seers are not Qunari.  They are playing at following the Qun. When the Qunari convert Rivaini, you can be guarunteed that the Seers will be made into saarebas.  It is one of the primary tennents of the Qun.

[MisterJB]

Silfren wrote...
I think you're taking the natural disaster thing way too literally.  I think the only thing the Rivaini mean by it is that sometimes disasters happen no matter how well you prepare for them, and then they simply have to be dealt with.

That doesn't seem likely considering the rivaini don't even abide by the most basic rules of preventing magical accidents.

You can't say there are risks with no benefits: by your own words our information is incomplete.  I think it's obvious the Seers know something we don't.  I certainly don't believe that they're just somehow completely unaware of the danger of abominations.  I think the fact that they are willing to take the risk--don't forget, it's a risk to the seers themselves, too--strongly implies that they know what the hell they're doing.

It doesn't imply anything. People do stupid things all the time without knowing what they're doing.
Yes, there might be some benefit but from studying Wynne and Anders, I see only risks.

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...

Silfren wrote...
I think you're taking the natural disaster thing way too literally.  I think the only thing the Rivaini mean by it is that sometimes disasters happen no matter how well you prepare for them, and then they simply have to be dealt with.

That doesn't seem likely considering the rivaini don't even abide by the most basic rules of preventing magical accidents.

You don't know that.  It's much more likely, since they embrace possession, that they simply know how to deal with it.  But just because they don't do something you think they should hardly means they don't have their own safety regulations.

It doesn't imply anything. People do stupid things all the time without knowing what they're doing.

We're talking about trained mages, not people randomly thinking "wonder what'll happen if I do this."  It's a generations' old tradition that the general populace accepts.  There is every reason to believe that the Rivaini seers know what they're doing. 

Modifié par Silfren, 24 octobre 2013 - 09:55 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Rivaini isn't technically considered Qunari lands either. Qunari wouldn't consider it their mission to chain up the bas Saarebas there either. At least not yet. Qunari would not let their respect for a Basalit-an prevent them from fulfilling any Demands of the Qun, but until then they seem to treat them with a fair amount of civlity, at least for a foreigner.

Either way perhaps it's something the devs should clear up then, because the close relationship between the Qunari and the Rivaini has been long established. As has the relationship between Rivaini and Seers.

There are purportedly mages in the Ben-Hassrath, it's possible in a Qunari invasion some Rivaini Seers might be incorporated into them.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 24 octobre 2013 - 09:57 .

[MisterJB]

Silfren wrote...
You don't know that.  It's much more likely, since they embrace possession, that they simply know how to deal with it.  But just because they don't do something you think they should hardly means they don't have their own safety regulations.

It seems to me not being possessed would be the most rudimentary way of avoiding possession.

If you are activelly encouraging possession, you are already placing everyone at a risk that could be easily avoided without harm to no one because regardless of what methods they use to "deal" with possession, there is no possible way they'll be as effective as not being possessed in the first place.
It's neglectful.

We're talking about trained mages,

Anders was a trained mage.

not people randomly thinking "wonder what'll happen if I do this."  It's a generations' old tradition that the general populace accepts.  There is every reason to believe that the Rivaini seers know what they're doing. 

The Rite of Tranquility is a generation's old tradition but everyone admits their understanding of it is lacking.
Just because the Seers are capable of doing something, it doesn't mean they understand everything about it.
If their knowledge is so extensive, maybe Isabela could have warned Anders of how spirits can be easily warped by the emotions of the human host.

[wcholcombe]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Rivaini isn't technically considered Qunari lands either. Qunari wouldn't consider it their mission to chain up the bas Saarebas there either. At least not yet. Qunari would not let their respect for a Basalit-an prevent them from fulfilling any Demands of the Qun, but until then they seem to treat them with a fair amount of civlity, at least for a foreigner.

Either way perhaps it's something the devs should clear up then, because the close relationship between the Qunari and the Rivaini has been long established. As has the relationship between Rivaini and Seers.

There are purportedly mages in the Ben-Hassrath, it's possible in a Qunari invasion some Rivaini Seers might be incorporated into them.

That is my whole point.  Rivaini isn't Qunari land and they probably consider those who follow the Qun to be children playing a game.  When Rivaini is converted to the Qun, the Seers will be put in chains as Saarebas.  Or they will be killed.  Any mages in the Ben-Hassrath are Saarebas.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Maybe, maybe not. But I'm talking more about the relationship they have now. Rivaini diplomats are the only people to ever be allowed to visit Par Vollen.

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...

Silfren wrote...
You don't know that.  It's much more likely, since they embrace possession, that they simply know how to deal with it.  But just because they don't do something you think they should hardly means they don't have their own safety regulations.

It seems to me not being possessed would be the most rudimentary way of avoiding possession.

Smart ass.  If you think possession is too inherently dangerous to practice, fine, but since we already know that the seers aren't trying to avoid possession, snarky comments like this aren't helpful to the discussion.

Anders was a trained mage.

I don't see what this has to do with the price of tea in China.  He was not an abomination, either, in my view.  Possessed, yes, but in a fundamentally different way than those meatsack abominations we see running about.  He and Justice merged in some strange fashion, and Anders went a little batsh*t, yes, but his mind was generally still intact (by which I mean he wasn't a gibbering, drooling, slackjaw).  
But most importantly, he was trained in traditional Circle ways, which is clearly quite a bit different from the seer traditions, and he was dealing with a great deal of unmanaged anger.  He's an example of what COULD happen, but his own background cannot be compared with those of Rivaini seers we already know to have different traditions of training than the rest of Thedas.

The Rite of Tranquility is a generation's old tradition but everyone admits their understanding of it is lacking.
Just because the Seers are capable of doing something, it doesn't mean they understand everything about it.
If their knowledge is so extensive, maybe Isabela could have warned Anders of how spirits can be easily warped by the emotions of the human host.

Again I don't see what this has to do with anything.  Anders was possessed well before Isabela came along to Hawke's crew of misfits. 

Modifié par Silfren, 24 octobre 2013 - 10:21 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Silfren wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I think we need to learn more about the Rivaini Seers in order to make a point about them one way or another. I got the sense though that Wynne and Anders were bonded to their spirits in different fashions.

Funnily enough I've thought that both Wynne and Anders possibly stumbled into the same kind of possession that the seers themselves engage in.

I'd always figured the Seers practiced voluntary temporary possesion, but that may have been an assumption on my part.


Anders and Wynne behaved extremely differently though, Wynne never lost control over her body or appeared to have a major shift in personality, goals and values. Nor did she somehow violently go rant about the value of Faith or something. If Rivaini Seers are like Anders then I think they are incredibly dangerous, if they are like Wynne then I dobut it.

[Br3admax]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Not sure if there is such a thing as temporary possession.

Wynne never lost control over her body or appeared to have a major shift in personality, goals and values. Nor did she somehow violently go rant about the value of Faith or something.

Something that has always puzzled me about Wynne is her reaction to the defiling the ashes. Sure, you can write it off due to her being a faithful woman. But the spirit possessing her being on of faith has always made me raise an eyebrow.

Possession doesn't work this way either. There are plenty of other times that faith can be tested to much larger extremes than this, and not even a bat an eyelash. 

[Silfren]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I think we need to learn more about the Rivaini Seers in order to make a point about them one way or another. I got the sense though that Wynne and Anders were bonded to their spirits in different fashions.

Funnily enough I've thought that both Wynne and Anders possibly stumbled into the same kind of possession that the seers themselves engage in.

I'd always figured the Seers practiced voluntary temporary possesion, but that may have been an assumption on my part.


Anders and Wynne behaved extremely differently though, Wynne never lost control over her body or appeared to have a major shift in personality, goals and values. Nor did she somehow violently go rant about the value of Faith or something. If Rivaini Seers are like Anders then I think they are incredibly dangerous, if they are like Wynne then I dobut it.

I do think that the only real difference between Wynne and Anders is that she was even-tempered and given to acceptance, whereas Anders undeniably had a great deal of anger toward the Chantry.  It appears to make all the difference--we do see one, possibly two, examples in Asunder of Wynne being on the verge of losing control. 

I personally do think the available evidence points to the Rivaini mages knowing what they're doing and having a controlled system, so I would guess that part of the training to become a seer involves maintaining control of your emotional state.

[Silfren]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Not sure if there is such a thing as temporary possession.

Wynne never lost control over her body or appeared to have a major shift in personality, goals and values. Nor did she somehow violently go rant about the value of Faith or something.

Something that has always puzzled me about Wynne is her reaction to the defiling the ashes. Sure, you can write it off due to her being a faithful woman. But the spirit possessing her being on of faith has always made me raise an eyebrow.

To be fair, Wynne only THINKS it is a spirit of faith; it's never de facto confirmed.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I think we need to learn more about the Rivaini Seers in order to make a point about them one way or another. I got the sense though that Wynne and Anders were bonded to their spirits in different fashions.

Funnily enough I've thought that both Wynne and Anders possibly stumbled into the same kind of possession that the seers themselves engage in.

I'd always figured the Seers practiced voluntary temporary possesion, but that may have been an assumption on my part.


Anders and Wynne behaved extremely differently though, Wynne never lost control over her body or appeared to have a major shift in personality, goals and values. Nor did she somehow violently go rant about the value of Faith or something. If Rivaini Seers are like Anders then I think they are incredibly dangerous, if they are like Wynne then I dobut it.

To be honest we don't know wynne before but i find that she attacks you because you destroyed urn or screws you in camp because of that strange.She isn't religious person not to such degree and her spirit is faith coincidence?

[MisterJB]

Silfren wrote...
Smart ass.  If you think possession is too inherently dangerous to practice, fine, but since we already know that the seers aren't trying to avoid possession, snarky comments like this aren't helpful to the discussion.

If they are not even interested in keeping mages from being possessed, then they obviously lack even the most basic of security measures which would match the idea of mages being natural disasters.
This because not being possessed is the most basic security measure to avoid magical incidents.

I would also argue isolation is another basic security measure but that would take us into an entirely different direction.

I don't see what this has to do with the price of tea in China.  He was not an abomination, either, in my view.  Possessed, yes, but in a fundamentally different way than those meatsack abominations we see running about.  He and Justice merged in some strange fashion, and Anders went a little batsh*t, yes, but his mind was generally still intact (by which I mean he wasn't a gibbering, drooling, slackjaw).  
But most importantly, he was trained in traditional Circle ways, which is clearly quite a bit different from the seer traditions, and he was dealing with a great deal of unmanaged anger.  He's an example of what COULD happen, but his own background cannot be compared with those of Rivaini seers we already know to have different traditions of training than the rest of Thedas.

Anders did not went a little bat****. He completely lost his mind to the point he was having blanks and his personality was radically altered by the possession.
Yes, his training may have differed from that of the Seers but he was trained and he and Justice ended up corrupting each other and became remarkably dangerous. And this I do not believe was an example of what can happen, but of what will always happen.
Not that every mage possessed by a spirit will become a terrorist but every person has emotions and every spirit has a single minded focus on a single one. Regardless of how well trained that mage might be, these fundamental truths will not change.

And yes, Wynne's possession seemed to differ in that, unlike with Anders, her personality never merged with the Spirit.

It remains to be known just what type of possession the Seers practice.

Modifié par MisterJB, 24 octobre 2013 - 10:37 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

MisterJB wrote...

Anders did not went a little bat****. He completely lost his mind to the point he was having blanks and his personality was radically altered by the possession.
Yes, his training may have differed from that of the Seers but he was trained and he and Justice ended up corrupting each other and became remarkably dangerous. And this I do not believe was an example of what can happen, but of what will always happen.
Not that every mage possessed by a spirit will become a terrorist but every person has emotions and every spirit has a single minded focus on a single one. Regardless of how well trained that mage might be, these fundamental truths will not change.

And yes, Wynne's possession seemed to differ in that, unlike with Anders, her personality never merged with the Spirit.

It remains to be known just what type of possession the Seers practice.

1. I doubt justice did any of the corrupting. I'm willing to bet it went like this. Anders corrupts justice and turns him to the dark side, justice reflects that corruption onto anders. All of it comes from anders and just gets sent back at him in a feedback loop.

2. If it always happened, there would not have been a situation where all these diverse applications of magic and communications of the fade take place. Becoming a abomination is something that is a constant risk, but saying that every single instance of possession leads to abominations seems as stupid as saying all instances of becoming a templar make you discriminate and abuse mages. The rivian seers would not be in any state to have practiced this art if they all turned abomination, because the whole society would have ended up overrun by deomic influence long ago. Spirit warriros and Spirit healers would not exist as well, if all possessions led to abominations. Ruling out training, personality, experience, will, and every other factor and jsut putting it in the same terms as being a fact is foolish.

It's ridiculous.

[dragonflight288]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I think we need to learn more about the Rivaini Seers in order to make a point about them one way or another. I got the sense though that Wynne and Anders were bonded to their spirits in different fashions.

Funnily enough I've thought that both Wynne and Anders possibly stumbled into the same kind of possession that the seers themselves engage in.

I'd always figured the Seers practiced voluntary temporary possesion, but that may have been an assumption on my part.


Anders and Wynne behaved extremely differently though, Wynne never lost control over her body or appeared to have a major shift in personality, goals and values. Nor did she somehow violently go rant about the value of Faith or something. If Rivaini Seers are like Anders then I think they are incredibly dangerous, if they are like Wynne then I dobut it.

There are many possibilities for their behavior. One, Wynne may simply be more mature and in greater control of her emotions, unlike Anders who never really came to terms with his emotions. Even in Awakening, he hid how he was feeling behind a wall of humor.

It could be the type of spirit that possessed them. Justice as a virtue (not the spirit) doesn't care for patience, waiting for the right time, whether you're a mage, templar, elf, dwarf, noble or farmer. All it cares about is if you're innocent, or if you're guilty.

Faith, as a viture and not the spirit, is believing in things felt but remain unseen. It is a very poweful virtue that far exceeds logic and reason, often followed through despite all evidence to the contrary. Someone may have faith in some form of divinity, but others may place more faith in the material things of the world, and believe it holds a higher value than what relgion, whether the chantry or a real life one, may teach.

As spirits, Justice merged with Anders, a mage. Naturally, Anders would sympathize with the mages more often, and given that he never really came to terms with his emotions (and a year in solitary confinement most certainly would drive most people completely insane, or make them lose nearly all empathy) those emotions may have easily affected Justice negatively, and Justice's not caring about right or wrong, who is who, in turn affected Andes negatively as well, so that sometimes they have a hard time distinguishing the difference between who is guilty and innocent of crimes. Real or imagined. (Alrik and Ela)

Faith, is a complete unknown, so I can't say much.

[dragonflight288]

The Hierophant wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Not really as there's no mention of the Seekers needing a Grand Cleric's permission for an RoA.

http://dragonage.wik...ht_of_Annulment

The seekers don't have the authority to enact one.

Thanks for the correction.

No problem.

[MisterJB]

Darth Brotarian wrote...
2. If it always happened, there would not have been a situation where all these diverse applications of magic and communications of the fade take place. Becoming a abomination is something that is a constant risk, but saying that every single instance of possession leads to abominations seems as stupid as saying all instances of becoming a templar make you discriminate and abuse mages. The rivian seers would not be in any state to have practiced this art if they all turned abomination, because the whole society would have ended up overrun by deomic influence long ago. Spirit warriros and Spirit healers would not exist as well, if all possessions led to abominations. Ruling out training, personality, experience, will, and every other factor and jsut putting it in the same terms as being a fact is foolish.

It's ridiculous.

There is a difference between communicating with the Fade and letting a piece of it inside of you. Spirit Warriors and Healers make contact with spirits but never actually become possessed unlike what happened with Anders.
And, assuming that Ander's brand of spirit possession; as opposed to Wynne's; is the most common one, then it becomes obvious that all mages that would go through it would be fundamentally changed by the merging of minds.
This because all persons have emotions that would affect the spirit and because all spirits focus on one to the neglect of all others and because they are, ultimately, alien minds.
As I said in the post you quoted, this does not mean all mages possessed by spirits would become terrorists or even malevolent as we commonly understand it, but they would all be changed. This wouldn't necessarely mean life in Rivain would become unsustainable; only heavily spirit influenced. Which it already must be given that the rulers are possessed mages.

[Cainhurst Crow]

MisterJB wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...
2. If it always happened, there would not have been a situation where all these diverse applications of magic and communications of the fade take place. Becoming a abomination is something that is a constant risk, but saying that every single instance of possession leads to abominations seems as stupid as saying all instances of becoming a templar make you discriminate and abuse mages. The rivian seers would not be in any state to have practiced this art if they all turned abomination, because the whole society would have ended up overrun by deomic influence long ago. Spirit warriros and Spirit healers would not exist as well, if all possessions led to abominations. Ruling out training, personality, experience, will, and every other factor and jsut putting it in the same terms as being a fact is foolish.

It's ridiculous.

There is a difference between communicating with the Fade and letting a piece of it inside of you. Spirit Warriors and Healers make contact with spirits but never actually become possessed unlike what happened with Anders.
And, assuming that Ander's brand of spirit possession; as opposed to Wynne's; is the most common one, then it becomes obvious that all mages that would go through it would be fundamentally changed by the merging of minds.
This because all persons have emotions that would affect the spirit and because all spirits focus on one to the neglect of all others and because they are, ultimately, alien minds.
As I said in the post you quoted, this does not mean all mages possessed by spirits would become terrorists or even malevolent as we commonly understand it, but they would all be changed. This wouldn't necessarely mean life in Rivain would become unsustainable; only heavily spirit influenced. Which it already must be given that the rulers are possessed mages.

Your entire assumption hinges on anders not being the outlier, but the common version. Which I doubt is the case, espeically in rivian where the seers probably went through a different type of training and have a mindset closer to wynne's. After all, anders was already an outlier for being so rebellious, breaking out of the circle multiple times and causing all number of havok. Him becoming one with a spirit is something that probably would never have happened if justice wasn't trapped in kristof's body on the mortal plain. Which in it of itself is a unusual situation.

And as far as spirit warriors  go.

Dragon Age Wiki wrote...

Although spirit warriors employ magical abilities, they are not mages; instead, they flirt with inhabitants of the Fade who agree to augment mortal abilities in exchange for a glimpse of the physical world. Naturally, the Chantry's templars rarely acknowledge that distinction.

Sounds like there is a lot more going on there, then just simple chit chat communication.