1420 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

Darth Brotarian wrote...
Your entire assumption hinges on anders not being the outlier, but the common version. Which I doubt is the case, espeically in rivian where the seers probably went through a different type of training and have a mindset closer to wynne's. After all, anders was already an outlier for being so rebellious, breaking out of the circle multiple times and causing all number of havok. Him becoming one with a spirit is something that probably would never have happened if justice wasn't trapped in kristof's body on the mortal plain. Which in it of itself is a unusual situation.

If we assume the mentality of the mage determines what results from the merging; then the Seers from Rivain should be much closer to Anders than Wynne given their increased freedoms and unwillingness to surrender them.
But I still doubt mentality has anything to do with it. Wynne's doesn't seem to have changed in the sligthest.

Sounds like there is a lot more going on there, then just simple chit chat communication.

Everything we know about possession points to it being irreversible. Besides, I doubt spirits would just take a quick ride on someone's body and then leave, even if they could.
Why catch only a glimpse if you already have a willing meat suit?

[LobselVith8]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I think we need to learn more about the Rivaini Seers in order to make a point about them one way or another. I got the sense though that Wynne and Anders were bonded to their spirits in different fashions.

Funnily enough I've thought that both Wynne and Anders possibly stumbled into the same kind of possession that the seers themselves engage in. 

I'd always figured the Seers practiced voluntary temporary possesion, but that may have been an assumption on my part.

Anders and Wynne behaved extremely differently though, Wynne never lost control over her body or appeared to have a major shift in personality, goals and values. Nor did she somehow violently go rant about the value of Faith or something. If Rivaini Seers are like Anders then I think they are incredibly dangerous, if they are like Wynne then I dobut it. 

I always thought the Rivaini seers could help Anders deal with his symbiosis with Justice, since he often seemed to hypothesize about what it actually meant for his soul to be merged with a spirit.

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...
Your entire assumption hinges on anders not being the outlier, but the common version. Which I doubt is the case, espeically in rivian where the seers probably went through a different type of training and have a mindset closer to wynne's. After all, anders was already an outlier for being so rebellious, breaking out of the circle multiple times and causing all number of havok. Him becoming one with a spirit is something that probably would never have happened if justice wasn't trapped in kristof's body on the mortal plain. Which in it of itself is a unusual situation.

If we assume the mentality of the mage determines what results from the merging; then the Seers from Rivain should be much closer to Anders than Wynne given their increased freedoms and unwillingness to surrender them.
But I still doubt mentality has anything to do with it. Wynne's doesn't seem to have changed in the sligthest.

Sorry, I'm not following your reasoning for Rivaini seers being more like Anders and less like Wynne.  I'm not at all sure how you can be so convinced of that.

[dragonflight288]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Rivani sure does get put on pedestal despite people only knowing bits and pieces about it doesn't it?

Well, it's one of the only places where the Chantry, Qunari and mages in general seem to live in peace with one another and there is next to no lore at all of any bad things happening there that wasn't the result of the actions of the more extreme factions.

[Silfren]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I think we need to learn more about the Rivaini Seers in order to make a point about them one way or another. I got the sense though that Wynne and Anders were bonded to their spirits in different fashions.

Funnily enough I've thought that both Wynne and Anders possibly stumbled into the same kind of possession that the seers themselves engage in. 

I'd always figured the Seers practiced voluntary temporary possesion, but that may have been an assumption on my part.

Anders and Wynne behaved extremely differently though, Wynne never lost control over her body or appeared to have a major shift in personality, goals and values. Nor did she somehow violently go rant about the value of Faith or something. If Rivaini Seers are like Anders then I think they are incredibly dangerous, if they are like Wynne then I dobut it. 

I always thought the Rivaini seers could help Anders deal with his symbiosis with Justice, since he often seemed to hypothesize about what it actually meant for his soul to be merged with a spirit.

I rather doubt we'll see him in DA:I, even for playthroughs that didn't kill him, but it's an interesting thought, no?  I suspect that the Rivaini seers do know quite a lot more about possession than elsewhere in Thedas.

[LobselVith8]

Silfren wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I always thought the Rivaini seers could help Anders deal with his symbiosis with Justice, since he often seemed to hypothesize about what it actually meant for his soul to be merged with a spirit.

I rather doubt we'll see him in DA:I, even for playthroughs that didn't kill him, but it's an interesting thought, no?  I suspect that the Rivaini seers do know quite a lot more about possession than elsewhere in Thedas. 

The seers have a millennia of experience with the practice, so their knowledge seems to be unique - at least in Andrastian lands. It would be nice to think that Anders found some clarity and contentment in the kingdom of Rivain, since he dealt with so much turmoil in Kirkwall after Karl's death. As for Rivain, I'm curious whether the Inquisitor might visit it, given it's multicultural population, it's Qunari population (which makes me wonder how a Tal-Voshoth Inquisitor will respond to them), and the kingdom's response to the Mage-Templar War, given the seers and the annulled Circle.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

Rivani sure does get put on pedestal despite people only knowing bits and pieces about it doesn't it?

Well, it's one of the only places where the Chantry, Qunari and mages in general seem to live in peace with one another and there is next to no lore at all of any bad things happening there that wasn't the result of the actions of the more extreme factions.

Yeah it's actually why I wanted the story to take us there, it sounds interesting because of all the compromises all sides would have to make to get along like nowhere else. And it would be better to know how well it works one way or another. It's actually kind of a shame the Circle at Dairsmuid got annnulled, it sounds like it would have been fascinating to see in practice.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 25 octobre 2013 - 12:11 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Rivani sure does get put on pedestal despite people only knowing bits and pieces about it doesn't it?

I' really want to know more about all of them. Tevinter, Nevarra, Antiva, Rivian, all these places. At least enough to know a basic way people live and stuff.

[dragonflight288]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

Rivani sure does get put on pedestal despite people only knowing bits and pieces about it doesn't it?

Well, it's one of the only places where the Chantry, Qunari and mages in general seem to live in peace with one another and there is next to no lore at all of any bad things happening there that wasn't the result of the actions of the more extreme factions.

Yeah it's actually why I wanted the story to take us there, it sounds interesting because of all the compromises all sides would have to make to get along like nowhere else. And it would be better to know how well it works one way or another. It's actually kind of a shame the Circle at Dairsmuid got annnulled, it sounds like it would have been fascinating to see in practice.

It would've been fascinating, but I highly doubt they had the only Seers there as well, since the Circle there was kept up mostly as a formality as a slight concession to the chantry itself.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

World of Thedas describes it was it as sort of working similar to other circles except less strict, and the Seers are allowed to remain free and train apprentices as long as they help the local templars when needed.

[dragonflight288]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

World of Thedas describes it was it as sort of working similar to other circles except less strict, and the Seers are allowed to remain free and train apprentices as long as they help the local templars when needed.

So that means that the Seeker who threw a fit about the Rivaini's practices, actually went against the established agreement between the Chantry and the Rivaini.

Dang, it would've been great to play a mage Inquisitor whose origin came from the Rivaini Circle. Heck, such an origin would be fun to play in general. It would be so enlightening about the Rivaini practices.

[Silfren]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

World of Thedas describes it was it as sort of working similar to other circles except less strict, and the Seers are allowed to remain free and train apprentices as long as they help the local templars when needed.

So that means that the Seeker who threw a fit about the Rivaini's practices, actually went against the established agreement between the Chantry and the Rivaini.

Dang, it would've been great to play a mage Inquisitor whose origin came from the Rivaini Circle. Heck, such an origin would be fun to play in general. It would be so enlightening about the Rivaini practices.

It IS a shame, isn't it, that Bioware keeps having all these off-screen events happening that ruin great opportunities for the game?

ETA:  Though isn't it true that Vivienne is Rivaini?  I'm aware that she's culturally/nationally Orlesian, but she's a black woman, and that makes her ethnically Rivaini, no?  I doubt that any background options we get will be that varied, but if we were to get to choose background options, and had some story flavor as a result, I would love the option to play as a Rivaini mage if Bioware wrote a story getting around the Annulment.

Modifié par Silfren, 25 octobre 2013 - 12:42 .

[cjones91]

I'm kind of hoping the Human Mage Inquisitor has a Rivaini background since it would motivate them to make sure that kind of abuse of power never happens again.I truly believe the Annullment of the Rivaini Circle was the result of the Seeker overstepping his authority.

[wcholcombe]

The Chantry itself didn't have an agreement. That was just what had occurred. The circle there was basically operating in violation of chantry law if we believe the way we have seen most circles is how the law says they operate.

As for Wynne we do know she was possessed by a spirit and she did lose control of herself in the fade in Asunder when the spirit takes over to fight a demon.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Silfren wrote...

I don't think that Seers can accurately be called abominations.  I would agree that templars and Chantry hard-liners would likely be loathe to make the distinction, but I do NOT think at all that a person who retains control of their mind can be considered to be the same thing as one of those abomination-meatsacks. 

Just because range abominatiosn are mindless, doesn't mean all are.
Take a look at Uldred. He looked completely normal.
And abomination has acess to the mages memories..so it can act perfectly normal.
Thus to say that a Seer retains control of their mind is not something you can prove. At all. Any abomination with brains would act all innocent.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Silfren wrote...
If free possessed mages were causing that much of a problem, I maintain that we WOULD have heard about it, because the people themselves would be raising holy hell for the Chantry to do something, or else the Chantry itself would simply have noticed a problem and dealt with it.

In a real world, yes.
In a game world the only news you hear is the one the develoeprs think of or rememebr putting in.

As I said before, it's wrong to think abomination = it's going ot start slaughtering indescriminately. Less intelligent ones, yes. But we know there are very crafty abominations.
Abominations that remain hidden in plain sight for YEARS, decieveing everyone.

I mean, think for a sedond. If you were an abomination, what would you do?
You'd want to remain undetected and create a strong position for yourself for when you start the mayhem. So getting everyones trust is step n01. Throw money at poeple, since it means nothing to you anyway. Get them to like you. Set yourself up as a hero, a trustworthy person. I can go on, but you get the gist.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Silfren wrote...

I do believe you, actually; I've heard you use this reasoning before.  I still don't see what the problem is; I think it's quite a healthy response, personally.  There is never going to be any foolproof method of negating the risks of magic.  Finding a balance between freedom and security and accepting that this means that sometimes you have to deal with a disaster, this is exactly how I think the situation should be handled, rather than fostering the paranoid belief that if you only do x, y, and z, you can live a life totally free of pain.  THAT is the unhealthy mode of living, and I have seen the results of what it can do to people who follow all the rules and get hurt anyway. 

Yes, allowing yourself to be killed nad jsut shriggin and saying "Meh. It's life". Truly a healthy mode of living.
Oh wait...you're dead so it's not a healthy mode of living. It's mroe of a mode of dying. Unhealthy.

You are saying people should just have to accpet hunderds dying from abominations and no nothing about it.
Because clearly the lives of a few mages are far more important than the lives of thousands of mundanes.

Mundanes should jsut "deal with it"?
How abotu mages just "deal with" being locked up?

[cjones91]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Silfren wrote...

I do believe you, actually; I've heard you use this reasoning before.  I still don't see what the problem is; I think it's quite a healthy response, personally.  There is never going to be any foolproof method of negating the risks of magic.  Finding a balance between freedom and security and accepting that this means that sometimes you have to deal with a disaster, this is exactly how I think the situation should be handled, rather than fostering the paranoid belief that if you only do x, y, and z, you can live a life totally free of pain.  THAT is the unhealthy mode of living, and I have seen the results of what it can do to people who follow all the rules and get hurt anyway. 

Yes, allowing yourself to be killed nad jsut shriggin and saying "Meh. It's life". Truly a healthy mode of living.
Oh wait...you're dead so it's not a healthy mode of living. It's mroe of a mode of dying. Unhealthy.

You are saying people should just have to accpet hunderds dying from abominations and no nothing about it.
Because clearly the lives of a few mages are far more important than the lives of thousands of mundanes.

Mundanes should jsut "deal with it"?
How abotu mages just "deal with" being locked up?

That is not what she implied.Silfren said that you can't always prevent a disaster even if you do everything right and sometimes abomination attacks will happen.

As for the last part of your post.....I have a suggestion:Let's lock up everyone including mages because clearly they are all dangerous.Sounds ridiculus does'nt it?So is expecting every mage to deal with being locked up for simply existing.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

cjones91 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Yes, allowing yourself to be killed nad jsut shriggin and saying "Meh. It's life". Truly a healthy mode of living.
Oh wait...you're dead so it's not a healthy mode of living. It's mroe of a mode of dying. Unhealthy.

You are saying people should just have to accpet hunderds dying from abominations and no nothing about it.
Because clearly the lives of a few mages are far more important than the lives of thousands of mundanes.

Mundanes should jsut "deal with it"?
How abotu mages just "deal with" being locked up?

That is not what she implied.Silfren said that you can't always prevent a disaster even if you do everything right and sometimes abomination attacks will happen.

As for the last part of your post.....I have a suggestion:Let's lock up everyone including mages because clearly they are all dangerous.Sounds ridiculus does'nt it?So is expecting every mage to deal with being locked up for simply existing.

Locking up all mages sounds less ridiculous than locking everyone up. Especially since mages are a minority and the only ones capable of going abomination. So even assuming the mage wasn't inclined to abuse his/her powers there's more reason to lock mages up than anyone else, and its a good deal more practical than 1984ing the population with medieval technology levels.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 25 octobre 2013 - 03:00 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Yes, some Abominations can and will always happen. But when you can actually prevent some of them, save human lives, wouldn't you? Or would you just let these people die and just go "meh", even though you knew you could have done something to save them?
Should the Netherlands not build levees to try and mitigate the damages of flood? Should they leave their people to die, just because SOME floods will always happen?

[Medhia Nox]

@cjones91: But we should be fair about the large disparity between an insane mundane with a sword and an insane mage with a fireball.

The argument isn't that mundane people aren't dangerous - the argument is that mages have all the weaknesses of regular people, they're not extraordinary "people" - they're just gifted with powers they didn't achieve.

There is literally nothing extraordinary about a mage in Thedas - not a single thing the mage did accomplished the power they have.

If mages in Thedas were somehow "better" people - then sure, ignore the fact that they also have outlandish powers.

====

Look at wealthy nobles throughout history who abused their subjects.

They're largely despised for abusing what they were gifted with at birth. And people expect them to act "like nobles" due to the advantage they have.

When in reality - rich people are just as flawed as the poor.

Moreso even - because their perspective is so wrong about what life is like for the majority.

The same holds true for Thedas mages.

NOTE: I'm not talking about the forumites who perceive mages as special snowflakes born with the "right" perspective on their powers (not that I think most pro-mages have the right perspective at all).

I'm talking about how mages should be written if any reference to how human being "usually" act is supposed to be taken into account (and it should be taken into account in any story that is of anything but the worst quality)

[cjones91]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Silfren wrote...

I do believe you, actually; I've heard you use this reasoning before.  I still don't see what the problem is; I think it's quite a healthy response, personally.  There is never going to be any foolproof method of negating the risks of magic.  Finding a balance between freedom and security and accepting that this means that sometimes you have to deal with a disaster, this is exactly how I think the situation should be handled, rather than fostering the paranoid belief that if you only do x, y, and z, you can live a life totally free of pain.  THAT is the unhealthy mode of living, and I have seen the results of what it can do to people who follow all the rules and get hurt anyway. 

Yes, allowing yourself to be killed nad jsut shriggin and saying "Meh. It's life". Truly a healthy mode of living.
Oh wait...you're dead so it's not a healthy mode of living. It's mroe of a mode of dying. Unhealthy.

You are saying people should just have to accpet hunderds dying from abominations and no nothing about it.
Because clearly the lives of a few mages are far more important than the lives of thousands of mundanes.

Mundanes should jsut "deal with it"?
How abotu mages just "deal with" being locked up?

That is not what she implied.Silfren said that you can't always prevent a disaster even if you do everything right and sometimes abomination attacks will happen.

As for the last part of your post.....I have a suggestion:Let's lock up everyone including mages because clearly they are all dangerous.Sounds ridiculus does'nt it?So is expecting every mage to deal with being locked up for simply existing.

Locking up all mages sounds less ridiculous than locking everyone up. Especially since mages are a minority and the only ones capable of going abomination. So even assuming the mage wasn't inclined to abuse his/her powers there's more reason to lock mages up than anyone else, and its a good deal more practical than 1984ing the population with medieval technology levels.

Non mages can become abominations as well,such as the ones in Asunder.

[Hellion Rex]

cjones91 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Silfren wrote...

I do believe you, actually; I've heard you use this reasoning before.  I still don't see what the problem is; I think it's quite a healthy response, personally.  There is never going to be any foolproof method of negating the risks of magic.  Finding a balance between freedom and security and accepting that this means that sometimes you have to deal with a disaster, this is exactly how I think the situation should be handled, rather than fostering the paranoid belief that if you only do x, y, and z, you can live a life totally free of pain.  THAT is the unhealthy mode of living, and I have seen the results of what it can do to people who follow all the rules and get hurt anyway. 

Yes, allowing yourself to be killed nad jsut shriggin and saying "Meh. It's life". Truly a healthy mode of living.
Oh wait...you're dead so it's not a healthy mode of living. It's mroe of a mode of dying. Unhealthy.

You are saying people should just have to accpet hunderds dying from abominations and no nothing about it.
Because clearly the lives of a few mages are far more important than the lives of thousands of mundanes.

Mundanes should jsut "deal with it"?
How abotu mages just "deal with" being locked up?

That is not what she implied.Silfren said that you can't always prevent a disaster even if you do everything right and sometimes abomination attacks will happen.

As for the last part of your post.....I have a suggestion:Let's lock up everyone including mages because clearly they are all dangerous.Sounds ridiculus does'nt it?So is expecting every mage to deal with being locked up for simply existing.

Locking up all mages sounds less ridiculous than locking everyone up. Especially since mages are a minority and the only ones capable of going abomination. So even assuming the mage wasn't inclined to abuse his/her powers there's more reason to lock mages up than anyone else, and its a good deal more practical than 1984ing the population with medieval technology levels.

Non mages can become abominations as well,such as the ones in Asunder.

As well the pride demon abomination who possessed a ruler in Dragon Age Legends.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

cjones91 wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

That is not what she implied.Silfren said that you can't always prevent a disaster even if you do everything right and sometimes abomination attacks will happen.

As for the last part of your post.....I have a suggestion:Let's lock up everyone including mages because clearly they are all dangerous.Sounds ridiculus does'nt it?So is expecting every mage to deal with being locked up for simply existing.

Locking up all mages sounds less ridiculous than locking everyone up. Especially since mages are a minority and the only ones capable of going abomination. So even assuming the mage wasn't inclined to abuse his/her powers there's more reason to lock mages up than anyone else, and its a good deal more practical than 1984ing the population with medieval technology levels.

Non mages can become abominations as well,such as the ones in Asunder.

Bearing in mind that I've never read Asunder, I can tell you categorically that the things in it were either possessed mages or not abominations. That's literally in the setting's definition of abomination.

eluvianix wrote...

As well the pride demon abomination who possessed a ruler in Dragon Age Legends.

Is that game even canon? Also, previous point stands either way.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 25 octobre 2013 - 03:06 .