1420 réponses à ce sujet

[leaguer of one]

eluvianix wrote...

Jeez guys. Real classy. Leave Qistina alone.

Ok...Now you're just making things easier now. That phrase alone will drop a bomb.

[dragonflight288]

Getting back on topic, and away from theories and beliefs about a fictional world......

The Chantry is corrupt at a very real level, but now that it's lost nearly all its military power, maybe the corruption can be contained, maybe even nearly eliminated.

[leaguer of one]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Getting back on topic, and away from theories and beliefs about a fictional world......

The Chantry is corrupt at a very real level, but now that it's lost nearly all its military power, maybe the corruption can be contained, maybe even nearly eliminated.

Maybe some random Inquisitor may go all inquisitor all over the chantry and clean house. You know, a qunari female who is unbias to the sturcture of the chantry and no longer part of the qun....

[dragonflight288]

leaguer of one wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Getting back on topic, and away from theories and beliefs about a fictional world......

The Chantry is corrupt at a very real level, but now that it's lost nearly all its military power, maybe the corruption can be contained, maybe even nearly eliminated.

Maybe some random Inquisitor may go all inquisitor all over the chantry and clean house. You know, a qunari female who is unbias to the sturcture of the chantry and no longer part of the qun....

Maybe. Maybe even an exiled dwarf who has no preconceptions whatsoever about magic, demons, spirits, the qun or any such nonsense, beyond they annoy him equally.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

dragonflight288 wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Getting back on topic, and away from theories and beliefs about a fictional world......

The Chantry is corrupt at a very real level, but now that it's lost nearly all its military power, maybe the corruption can be contained, maybe even nearly eliminated.

Maybe some random Inquisitor may go all inquisitor all over the chantry and clean house. You know, a qunari female who is unbias to the sturcture of the chantry and no longer part of the qun....

Maybe. Maybe even an exiled dwarf who has no preconceptions whatsoever about magic, demons, spirits, the qun or any such nonsense, beyond they annoy him equally.

You don't necessarily have to be an outsider to see that the system is broken. Even some templars can see that much. A human male would be less likely to see this I suppose, but still could if he actually looks.

[dragonflight288]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Getting back on topic, and away from theories and beliefs about a fictional world......

The Chantry is corrupt at a very real level, but now that it's lost nearly all its military power, maybe the corruption can be contained, maybe even nearly eliminated.

Maybe some random Inquisitor may go all inquisitor all over the chantry and clean house. You know, a qunari female who is unbias to the sturcture of the chantry and no longer part of the qun....

Maybe. Maybe even an exiled dwarf who has no preconceptions whatsoever about magic, demons, spirits, the qun or any such nonsense, beyond they annoy him equally.

You don't necessarily have to be an outsider to see that the system is broken. Even some templars can see that much. A human male would be less likely to see this I suppose, but still could if he actually looks.

True. But would a human male/female who is also Andrastian truly be willing to see the faults of the Chantry itself, and not just the Circle's or the Templars?

[leaguer of one]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Getting back on topic, and away from theories and beliefs about a fictional world......

The Chantry is corrupt at a very real level, but now that it's lost nearly all its military power, maybe the corruption can be contained, maybe even nearly eliminated.

Maybe some random Inquisitor may go all inquisitor all over the chantry and clean house. You know, a qunari female who is unbias to the sturcture of the chantry and no longer part of the qun....

Ok, what tenplar do you see taking down their sacred cow?
Maybe. Maybe even an exiled dwarf who has no preconceptions whatsoever about magic, demons, spirits, the qun or any such nonsense, beyond they annoy him equally.

You don't necessarily have to be an outsider to see that the system is broken. Even some templars can see that much. A human male would be less likely to see this I suppose, but still could if he actually looks.

[Bleachrude]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Getting back on topic, and away from theories and beliefs about a fictional world......

The Chantry is corrupt at a very real level, but now that it's lost nearly all its military power, maybe the corruption can be contained, maybe even nearly eliminated.

You keep using the word "corrupt" but I don't think you know what it means.

[Vulpe]

 The biggest complain I can make regarding The Chantry is that as long as it existed, it didn't do anything to make the mages lives easier. They've found a way to contain dangerous or unstable mages by use of The Harrowing and by making them tranquil if they fail it and then they've just stopped.

Ok, I understand that magic is a dangerous tool and that mages need to be supervised so that the crazy ones don't end up killing innocent civilians and mages. Yes, some mages can't control their powers or are suseptible to demon possesion.Because of this The Harrowing and the eventual tranquilisation ( is that a word ? ) is a solution.But still, to take someone emotions and freedom and make them in obedient drones is awful... I might dare to say that it's a fate worse than death.

Ok, that was the only solutin back then.I can understand that.What realy grinds my gears is that after that they didn't do a thing. Have they researched the process of rendering one tranquil to better understand it ? No, they don't know almost anything about it. Have they tried to find other means to leave a mage incapable of casting magic or at least make him somehow resistant/immune to demonic possesions? Did they try at least to improve the tranquil process so that it doesn't render one emotionless?No, they didn't care. They prefered to make mages tranquil so that they could have free manpower and to make profits from their enchanting.

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 27 octobre 2013 - 10:40 .

[KiwiQuiche]

The stink of arrogant self-righteousness will linger around the burn carcass of the Val Royeaux, Level Orlais and create a new religion that isn't so stuck up. Or better yet, focus on crap that actually matters, like dealing with all the poor and half-dead population, rather than building giant temples for some burnt dead woman and a negligent god.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Harrowing was devisded by the mages.
You're thinking Tranquility...which was aslo probably devised by Tevinter.

Either way, just saying "The Chantry should find a new way" doesn't help. It starts from the assumptions that:
1) The Chantry never bothered to look forother ways
2) It is easy to find another way
3) That another way actually exists to begin with

The stink of arrogant self-righteousness will linger around the burn
carcass of the Val Royeaux, Level Orlais and create a new religion that
isn't so stuck up. Or better yet, focus on crap that actually matters,
like dealing with all the poor and half-dead population, rather than
building giant temples for some burnt dead woman and a negligent god.

Arrogance and self-rightousness?
There's no short suply of it out here..Your post included.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 27 octobre 2013 - 10:44 .

[KiwiQuiche]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

The stink of arrogant self-righteousness will linger around the burn
carcass of the Val Royeaux, Level Orlais and create a new religion that
isn't so stuck up. Or better yet, focus on crap that actually matters,
like dealing with all the poor and half-dead population, rather than
building giant temples for some burnt dead woman and a negligent god.

Arrogance and self-rightousness?
There's no short suply of it out here..Your post included.

As is yours
http://puu.sh/3JHUG

Modifié par KiwiQuiche, 27 octobre 2013 - 11:51 .

[Vulpe]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Harrowing was devisded by the mages.
You're thinking Tranquility...which was aslo probably devised by Tevinter.

Either way, just saying "The Chantry should find a new way" doesn't help. It starts from the assumptions that:
1) The Chantry never bothered to look forother ways
2) It is easy to find another way
3) That another way actually exists to begin with

t suply of it out here..Your post included.

Yeah, I've made a few mistakes expresing myself and made a confusion between The Harrowing and Tranquility.That's why I edited my post prior to yours.

Returning on my complain:

I never said that it will be easy. Maybe they've tried for a while but then they've stopped, but that's the problem. They souldn't have. They snucked in their confort zone and stopped. You might ask on what I base my assumption - in Asunder we find out that they know close to nothing about the process of making someone tranquild. They've recently started to investigate because of the orders from Justinia. Prior to that they didn't show any kind of interest. The Chatry's role is to protect everyone and to make their lives easier - eighter mage or non-mage.

Maybe they wouldn't have found anything useful, maybe there is no way. We don't know that because there is little to no research regarding it. I'm not judging them that they didn't found a better solution. I'm judging them becase they didn't tried to by continously working on it.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Harrowing was devisded by the mages.
You're thinking Tranquility...which was aslo probably devised by Tevinter.

Either way, just saying "The Chantry should find a new way" doesn't help. It starts from the assumptions that:
1) The Chantry never bothered to look forother ways
2) It is easy to find another way
3) That another way actually exists to begin with

Note that the new Divine is actively looking. Or was, before the (##*$storm.

[dragonflight288]

Bleachrude wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Getting back on topic, and away from theories and beliefs about a fictional world......

The Chantry is corrupt at a very real level, but now that it's lost nearly all its military power, maybe the corruption can be contained, maybe even nearly eliminated.

You keep using the word "corrupt" but I don't think you know what it means.

Corrupt.

adjective:

1. guilty of dishonest practices, as bribery; lacking integrity; crooked: a corrupt judge. 2. debased in character; depraved; perverted; wicked; evil: a corrupt society. 3. made inferior by errors or alterations, as a text. 4. infected; tainted. 5. decayed; putrid.

verb:

6. to destroy the integrity of; cause to be dishonest, disloyal, etc., especially by bribery. 7. to lower morally; pervert: to corrupt youth. 8. to alter (a language, text, etc.) for the worse; debase. 9. to mar; spoil. 10. to infect; taint.

Proof of chantry corruption-The chantry may have been the second ones to break the Llmarryn Accord, but after the slaughter that sundered the veil, they denied the attack itself, hid the truth, obfuscated the facts so as to appear the more innocent party

Also add in the Disonent Verses, verses from the original Chant of Light that was written by Andraste, which have since been removed by the Chanry itself, not because they claim Andraste wouldn't have wanted them in the Chant (especially since Andraste wrote them) but because they are considered heretical or politically inconvenient to them, such as the Canticle of Shartan, which now got in the way of things when it came down to their stance on elves after the war on the dales.

So there is an alteration of doctrine in order to have the Chant match their beliefs.

Meredith: Promoted not those who deserved to rise in the ranks, but instead those who shared her ideals. This is shown in multiple cases. Thrask calls Kerras 'one of Meredith's cronies', Cullen's codex entry states he was made Knight-Captain because he shared her view on mages, and her refusal to investigate her subordinates actions, which allowed Alrik to engaged in debasing and destructive behavior without fear of consequences.

Meredith also sought to remove Aveline from the guard, and take control of it, in order to consolidate templar authority, for the apparent reason of Aveline not falling in line with Meredith's stance on how the city should be run. Meredith also went out of her way to keep the city from electing a new viscount and let the city run itself, and is thereby guilty of illegally seizing power. With Dumar's death, and without an heir, the one closest in line to taking emergency powers would have been the Senechal, Captain of the Guard or the Magistrate, not the templars.

There was also a templar death-squad going around killing mage sympathizers, whether or not they had committed crimes, like offering a badly beaten cousin some food and a place to rest for the night. No trials, no evidence needed. Only the word of the templar in charge.

Lambert: Illegally ordered Evangeline to murder anyone who may have evidence that tranquility is now curable, and thereby was trying to hide facts from the world that one of the greatest tools of the Chantry could be removed. He outright ignored the orders of the Divine in allowing mages to investigate Rhys, and Wynne/Evangeline both think Lambert was plotting the attack since the meeting with the Divine didn't go his way, and well before Fiona put the motion on the table to vote for independence.

The templars also do not hold trials or prisons for apostates/maleficars, even those who are simply suspected but there is no proof. In the books, a showman was pretending to be a healer as a way to con some coin, and was killed by the templars despite the fact that he wasn't a mage.

What we have here are several examples by the Chantry and its leaders of

1.) promoting and overlooking those of poor character
2.) altering their own texts, through the use of removal of canticles from the Chant that have become inconvenient
3.) outright lying concerning their own actions, thereby being dishonest, even of genocide
4.) lowering their 'moral stance' on templars actions
5.) A complete removal of evidence and the removal of any rights to face the courts and their accuser.
6.) And a complete avoidance of accepting accountability for their own crimes

If these practices were done at all in real life, and was exposed in the news, everyone would be calling their actions corrupt, would be demanding executions, or at the very least, jail time.

Vis-a-vis, the chantry is corrupt.

I think I do know what I'm talking about, and what the word means.

[CroGamer002]

My guess is when organized religion is in question, people automatically think it is very corrupt and rigid.

[dragonflight288]

Ah, but I don't base my judgements on real-life religion. I base my opinions of the chantry on what the Chantry as an organization has done.

[Silfren]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Ah, but I don't base my judgements on real-life religion. I base my opinions of the chantry on what the Chantry as an organization has done.

This.  People keep saying "oh it's just because they obviously are just biased against religion/slamming organized religion is the in thing to do now" and completely ignoring that there is plenty of actual lore pointing to corruption with the Chantry.  I've no doubt that many people do bring their real world bias into play, but to insinuate that that's the only reason is disingenuous: the story we're given provides PLENTY of concrete lore-based reasons to view the Chantry as corrupt without any pre-existing bias at all.

[Bleachrude]

No it doesnt

What we see AT BEST is certain people being corrupt And even there, not sure how Meredith for example, promoting people that believe the same things she does is "corruption". When Meredith bought the lyrium sword, how was that corruption? Is there anything corrupt about a templar buying a weapon? Was the red lyrium even stolen to begin with?

Removing the Chant of Shartan is corruption? How? Given that the Chantry ITSELF was the one that compiled the writings in the first place. You do realize that the verses are simply a collection of writings that the chantry arbitarily deceided in the first place should be seen as sacrosanct?

And given that EVERYONE seems to know about the Disonant verses and even talk about it in public, how exactly is the Chantry at fault here.

Would you say that the Ferelden nobility is corrupt based on Vaughn?

Is Brother Gentivi corrupt? Yet he's as much a part of the chantry as Petrice is but what Petrice does is seen as "typical of the chantry" yet brother gentivi is seen as an outlier.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Bleachrude wrote...

No it doesnt

What we see AT BEST is certain people being corrupt And even there, not sure how Meredith for example, promoting people that believe the same things she does is "corruption". When Meredith bought the lyrium sword, how was that corruption? Is there anything corrupt about a templar buying a weapon? Was the red lyrium even stolen to begin with?

The sword drove her insane. You can make the argument that buying it in itself was not corruption; the things she does afterwards are hard to sell.

Removing the Chant of Shartan is corruption? How? Given that the Chantry ITSELF was the one that compiled the writings in the first place. You do realize that the verses are simply a collection of writings that the chantry arbitarily deceided in the first place should be seen as sacrosanct?

It was my understanding that the writings were supposed to have come down from their Prophet. Either this isn't true and they're thus overemphasizing them, or it is true and they're therefore not allowed to change them. (It is important to note, btw, that altering the Chant was considered horrible heresy when the Tevinters did it.)

[Bleachrude]

You're mixing up two things riverdalewhiteflash.

The Chant which is made up of different verses and one of the verses is the Canticle of Andraste. The canticle by Andraste is seen as inviolate since it is Andraste herself that said these words and ity is seen as the closest that the followers of the maker think are the actual belief of the maker since Andraste is his bride.

The one that got the Tevinter in trouble was the Canticle of Transfiguration which they actually altered. As weird as it sounds, THAT is actual corruption since you're altering the existing work whereas while the canticle of shartan was removed, there's no indication that it was actual altered.

The entire chant is simply a collection of these "canticles" that the proto-chantry (which would've been the chantry in Tevinter) collected and said "these are what we think ae important".

Modifié par Bleachrude, 28 octobre 2013 - 12:52 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Bleachrude wrote...

You're mixing up two things riverdalewhiteflash.

The Chant which is made up of different verses and one of the verses is the Canticle of Andraste. The canticle by Andraste is seen as inviolate since it is Andraste herself that said these words and ity is seen as the closest that the followers of the maker think are the actual belief of the maker since Andraste is his bride.

The one that got the Tevinter in trouble was the Canticle of Transfiguration which they actually altered. As weird as it sounds, THAT is actual corruption since you're altering the existing work whereas while the canticle of shartan was removed, there's no indication that it was actual altered.

The entire chant is simply a collection of these "canticles" that the proto-chantry (which would've been the chantry in Tevinter) collected and said "these are what we think ae important".

Then everything except the Canticle of Andraste is being massively overemphasized. They wrote a religion around the entire Chant, not just that Canticle. Rather than apply logical thought, the Divine who wrote the legal definition of maleficarum did so based on a passage which I believe the priests in front of the Denerim Chantry cited as the Canticle of Transfigurations. (Which said Divine proclaimed the word of the Prophet.) The Chantry's exact doctrine is that when the Chant, not the Canticle specifically, is sung from every corner, the Maker will fix the world. And then, when the political expediency of one of these Canticles is lost, they get to throw it out despite having previously overemphasized it.

Note that I'm not denying that what the Black Chantry did was corrupt. And that they did it for corrupt reasons. I'm just saying that it looks a good deal like what the White Chantry did, de-emphasizing the Canticle of Shartan for similar political reasons.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 28 octobre 2013 - 01:06 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Ah, but I don't base my judgements on real-life religion. I base my opinions of the chantry on what the Chantry as an organization has done.

None of the things you mention, are signs of corruption in the Chantry as an organization though... And what little that could hint towards it, you exaggerate beyond reason.

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Ah, but I don't base my judgements on real-life religion. I base my opinions of the chantry on what the Chantry as an organization has done.

None of the things you mention, are signs of corruption in the Chantry as an organization though... And what little that could hint towards it, you exaggerate beyond reason.

The chantry as an organization removes/changes its own scripture (Canticle of Shartan and other Dissonent Verses) because that part of their scripture has become politically inconvenient. They have increasingly gotten in the practice of promoting those who have more extremist tendencies, and then refuse to punish those people when they break secular laws, and even sometimes their own laws. Their leaders even resort to cold-blooded murder, often without evidence or a trial, to hide evidence that one of their tools of power can now be healed (tranquility.)

Those practices fall into the very definition of corrupt, and I gave every single definition earlier.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Thescripture wasn't changed at all. It was omitted. But even then, that has nothing to do with corruption. Nothing at all. The corruption regarding text from the definition you gave, are regarding unintented change due to alteration. A corruption of data so to speak. Your computer can sometimes accidently corrupt a text file for example. Does that make your entire computer corrupt?
Elthina, Lelianna, Cassandra, the Divine, probably several more, aren't hardliners and they are at the tippy top of Chantry leadership. But even then, promoting an extremist is not a sign of corruption either, so it is irrelevant for the subject matter.
I don't know what happened during the Exalted Marches in the Steel Age, I can't say wether or not anyone was punished for the massacres. If you have data, which must be exclusive to you, then by all means share it with the community. Either way, the massacres in Rivain were a tragedy, still not a sign of corruption of the Chantry as an organization though. It could just as easily be a sign of impatience with the armies in the field, since holding a town and waiting for them to convert back, was not an ideal situation for an army.
Are you talking about the Templars or the Chantry? Because it seems you are confusing the two. And either way, the Templars as an organization may be ruthless but they are pure in their intent. besides it was Adrian who murdered Pharamond and tried to frame Rhys.