1420 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

cjones91 wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

A) The chant is a collection of canticles some written by Andraste some by her followers.
All the canticle of Shartan says is that Shartan and the elves aided Andraste-it is an historical account. It has no bearing on the religious meaning of the Chant.

. It is not corruption in a religious organization to consider the strength of your faith to be a factor in promotions.

C). Yall are again mistaking individual corruption for systemic corruption. Being harsh on mages isn't corrupt, its a belief system.

The problem is most of this is just off of perspective. Those who follow the chant probably view the dalish as corrupt because they shelter and protect mages in their tribes.

Don't like them fine, disagree with their methods OK. But to insinuate corruption implies an active intent to mislead and misuse the chantey to better yourself in direct contrasts to the teachings and intents of the chantry.

Sorry,but it's highly suspicious that the Chantry basically erase the text that detailed the elves had helped their prophet.If they did'nt have something to hide then why remove the Canticles of Shartan?

Because they got pissed when the dalish attacked val royeux.  Basically it was fine you damn elves don't belong in our religious txt.

So it's totally okay if someone rewrote all of the history books in his/her country because that country had a conflict with another country?That does'nt make it right in any way.

Does the Chantry say that Shartan never existed? No, they don't. Do they claim his role wasn't important? Not to my knowledge. All the CHantry has done, is remove a cantlicle from THEIR OWN GODDAMN TEXT, whihch glorified Elves. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess, that after the Elves sacking Val Royaux, pillaging, burning and raping their way through the Chantry's holy headquarters, that the Chantry lost a bit of sympathy for these Elves. They since then havn't really felt the need to promote the story of the Elves...

[cjones91]

wcholcombe wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

A) The chant is a collection of canticles some written by Andraste some by her followers.
All the canticle of Shartan says is that Shartan and the elves aided Andraste-it is an historical account. It has no bearing on the religious meaning of the Chant.

. It is not corruption in a religious organization to consider the strength of your faith to be a factor in promotions.

C). Yall are again mistaking individual corruption for systemic corruption. Being harsh on mages isn't corrupt, its a belief system.

The problem is most of this is just off of perspective. Those who follow the chant probably view the dalish as corrupt because they shelter and protect mages in their tribes.

Don't like them fine, disagree with their methods OK. But to insinuate corruption implies an active intent to mislead and misuse the chantey to better yourself in direct contrasts to the teachings and intents of the chantry.

Sorry,but it's highly suspicious that the Chantry basically erase the text that detailed the elves had helped their prophet.If they did'nt have something to hide then why remove the Canticles of Shartan?

Because they got pissed when the dalish attacked val royeux.  Basically it was fine you damn elves don't belong in our religious txt.

So it's totally okay if someone rewrote all of the history books in his/her country because that country had a conflict with another country?That does'nt make it right in any way.

A)  they didn't rewrite it.  That would mean they wrote it as the elves aided the Magisters.
They omitted it.
C) They are a religious group, they are well within their rights to remove the canticle.

No they aren't.Just like how politicians can't rewrite history books neither can the Chantry do something that amounts commiting to heresy by removing a part of the Chant.

Modifié par cjones91, 28 octobre 2013 - 02:41 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Does the Chantry say that Shartan never existed? No, they don't. Do they claim his role wasn't important? Not to my knowledge. All the CHantry has done, is remove a cantlicle from THEIR OWN GODDAMN TEXT, whihch glorified Elves. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess, that after the Elves sacking Val Royaux, pillaging, burning and raping their way through the Chantry's holy headquarters, that the Chantry lost a bit of sympathy for these Elves. They since then havn't really felt the need to promote the story of the Elves...

As I've repeatedly pointed out, they derive much of their legitimacy and their law from the idea that it isn't their text, it's the Maker's. If this is true, then they can't remove any of it. If it isn't, where does that legitimacy come from?

[dragonflight288]

A) they didn't rewrite it. That would mean they wrote it as the elves aided the Magisters.
They omitted it.
C) They are a religious group, they are well within their rights to remove the canticle.

A & B: They omitted a large section of the Chant of Light itself, the very thing that they preach actively that "it must be sung from all corners of the world" before the Maker returns. They took it out entirely because it had become politically inconvenient to them after the war with the Dales.

How on earth can that possibly be called anything other than corruption?

I offer you a challenge. You say it is not corruption, then give me what it is. In one word only. One word that describes what it is, if not corrupt.

C. Whether they have the right or not is not in question, but their motivations behind it.

Although it would be ironic if they finally got to all corners of the world, and the Maker didn't come until they started preaching the Chant of Light with all the Dissonent Verses included.

[cjones91]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

A) The chant is a collection of canticles some written by Andraste some by her followers.
All the canticle of Shartan says is that Shartan and the elves aided Andraste-it is an historical account. It has no bearing on the religious meaning of the Chant.

. It is not corruption in a religious organization to consider the strength of your faith to be a factor in promotions.

C). Yall are again mistaking individual corruption for systemic corruption. Being harsh on mages isn't corrupt, its a belief system.

The problem is most of this is just off of perspective. Those who follow the chant probably view the dalish as corrupt because they shelter and protect mages in their tribes.

Don't like them fine, disagree with their methods OK. But to insinuate corruption implies an active intent to mislead and misuse the chantey to better yourself in direct contrasts to the teachings and intents of the chantry.

Sorry,but it's highly suspicious that the Chantry basically erase the text that detailed the elves had helped their prophet.If they did'nt have something to hide then why remove the Canticles of Shartan?

Because they got pissed when the dalish attacked val royeux.  Basically it was fine you damn elves don't belong in our religious txt.

So it's totally okay if someone rewrote all of the history books in his/her country because that country had a conflict with another country?That does'nt make it right in any way.

Does the Chantry say that Shartan never existed? No, they don't. Do they claim his role wasn't important? Not to my knowledge. All the CHantry has done, is remove a cantlicle from THEIR OWN GODDAMN TEXT, whihch glorified Elves. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess, that after the Elves sacking Val Royaux, pillaging, burning and raping their way through the Chantry's holy headquarters, that the Chantry lost a bit of sympathy for these Elves. They since then havn't really felt the need to promote the story of the Elves...

It's not their text since the Chant was created way before the Chantry even existed,therefore they don't have the right to alter a religous script just because they were in a hissy fit.Although now I'm starting to believe the Chantry did it to absolve themselves of any guilt because they enslaved their prophet's allies.

Modifié par cjones91, 28 octobre 2013 - 02:40 .

[Bleachrude]

It was NEVER the maker's.

Only the canticle of Andraste was seen as the will of the maker. The proto-chantry believed that if the chant was spread to all 4 corners of thedas, the maker would hear it and be moved and thus return to his children.

Both the black and white divine believe this as do their followers. The Chant itself is a creation of mortal believers (except for the cnaticle of andraste).

[wcholcombe]

dragonflight288 wrote...

A) they didn't rewrite it. That would mean they wrote it as the elves aided the Magisters.
They omitted it.
C) They are a religious group, they are well within their rights to remove the canticle.

A & B: They omitted a large section of the Chant of Light itself, the very thing that they preach actively that "it must be sung from all corners of the world" before the Maker returns. They took it out entirely because it had become politically inconvenient to them after the war with the Dales.

How on earth can that possibly be called anything other than corruption?

I offer you a challenge. You say it is not corruption, then give me what it is. In one word only. One word that describes what it is, if not corrupt.

C. Whether they have the right or not is not in question, but their motivations behind it.

Although it would be ironic if they finally got to all corners of the world, and the Maker didn't come until they started preaching the Chant of Light with all the Dissonent Verses included.

Simple.  It is pettyness.  It isn't politically inconvenient.  How could it be?  What is Wolf Blitzer or Larry King going to call them to the carpet?  No, politically they could leave it in and say see what we get for helping the dalish?  No, they removed canticle of Shartan out of spite or punishment.  Again misguided and juvenile but not corrupt.

[dragonflight288]

wcholcombe wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

A) they didn't rewrite it. That would mean they wrote it as the elves aided the Magisters.
They omitted it.
C) They are a religious group, they are well within their rights to remove the canticle.

A & B: They omitted a large section of the Chant of Light itself, the very thing that they preach actively that "it must be sung from all corners of the world" before the Maker returns. They took it out entirely because it had become politically inconvenient to them after the war with the Dales.

How on earth can that possibly be called anything other than corruption?

I offer you a challenge. You say it is not corruption, then give me what it is. In one word only. One word that describes what it is, if not corrupt.

C. Whether they have the right or not is not in question, but their motivations behind it.

Although it would be ironic if they finally got to all corners of the world, and the Maker didn't come until they started preaching the Chant of Light with all the Dissonent Verses included.

Simple.  It is pettyness.  It isn't politically inconvenient.  How could it be?  What is Wolf Blitzer or Larry King going to call them to the carpet?  No, politically they could leave it in and say see what we get for helping the dalish?  No, they removed canticle of Shartan out of spite or punishment.  Again misguided and juvenile but not corrupt.

Pettyness? You're saying that the Chantry as a large-scale organization, who were the ones who set up elves to live in alienages in cities, who removed the Canticle of Shartan around the time it became politically inconvenient for them to have anything positive about elves in their scriptures because of the war with the Dales, did so out of pettyness?

EDIT: Let's say you're right and I'm wrong, but in the end, how is pettyness any better than corruption? What that would ultimately mean is that the Chantry as an institution is childish and thereby should not be in charge of teaching morality because acts of pettyness rarely are acts of morality. Next to never. Also, when the Chantry is petty instead of corrupt, all it means is that a bunch of immature children will take their ball and go home because things don't to their way, and then ask mom and dad to go and kill the kids who dared disagree with them.

Rivain had the veil sundered in an exalted march, an act of genocide, which the Chantry vehemently denied doing despite being the guilty party. That is genocide, murder, and covering the evidence. If that is an act of pettyness and not corruption, then the Chantry doesn't deserve to have ANY followers at all.

Modifié par dragonflight288, 28 octobre 2013 - 03:50 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Bleachrude wrote...

It was NEVER the maker's.

Only the canticle of Andraste was seen as the will of the maker. The proto-chantry believed that if the chant was spread to all 4 corners of thedas, the maker would hear it and be moved and thus return to his children.

Both the black and white divine believe this as do their followers. The Chant itself is a creation of mortal believers (except for the cnaticle of andraste).

They draw legitimacy and portions of their law from the idea that this isn't the case, though. They use a loose interpretation of the Canticle of Transfigurations to justify banning blood magic, and despite the fact that it's not the Canticle of Andraste the Divine who wrote the Sermon that introduced this theory described that Canticle as "the word of our Prophet." The idea is that the Chant is automatically better than any reasoning she could use. (Though the reasoning she used to interpret the passages she found lends credence to this idea.)

[Silfren]

wcholcombe wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

A) they didn't rewrite it. That would mean they wrote it as the elves aided the Magisters.
They omitted it.
C) They are a religious group, they are well within their rights to remove the canticle.

A & B: They omitted a large section of the Chant of Light itself, the very thing that they preach actively that "it must be sung from all corners of the world" before the Maker returns. They took it out entirely because it had become politically inconvenient to them after the war with the Dales.

How on earth can that possibly be called anything other than corruption?

I offer you a challenge. You say it is not corruption, then give me what it is. In one word only. One word that describes what it is, if not corrupt.

C. Whether they have the right or not is not in question, but their motivations behind it.

Although it would be ironic if they finally got to all corners of the world, and the Maker didn't come until they started preaching the Chant of Light with all the Dissonent Verses included.

Simple.  It is pettyness.  It isn't politically inconvenient.  How could it be?  What is Wolf Blitzer or Larry King going to call them to the carpet?  No, politically they could leave it in and say see what we get for helping the dalish?  No, they removed canticle of Shartan out of spite or punishment.  Again misguided and juvenile but not corrupt.

To say that something is misguided and juvenile and petty but NOT corrupt is laughable.  To me it just looks like someone is twisting themselves into knots to avoid the "corrupt" label, the irony being that in order to do that they have to go out of their way to concede this negative attribute and that negative one.  "Yes, okay, he's a rapist and a murderer and a thief to boot....but you have absolutely no justification for calling him a liar, damnit!"

[Plaintiff]

Silfren wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

A) they didn't rewrite it. That would mean they wrote it as the elves aided the Magisters.
They omitted it.
C) They are a religious group, they are well within their rights to remove the canticle.

A & B: They omitted a large section of the Chant of Light itself, the very thing that they preach actively that "it must be sung from all corners of the world" before the Maker returns. They took it out entirely because it had become politically inconvenient to them after the war with the Dales.

How on earth can that possibly be called anything other than corruption?

I offer you a challenge. You say it is not corruption, then give me what it is. In one word only. One word that describes what it is, if not corrupt.

C. Whether they have the right or not is not in question, but their motivations behind it.

Although it would be ironic if they finally got to all corners of the world, and the Maker didn't come until they started preaching the Chant of Light with all the Dissonent Verses included.

Simple.  It is pettyness.  It isn't politically inconvenient.  How could it be?  What is Wolf Blitzer or Larry King going to call them to the carpet?  No, politically they could leave it in and say see what we get for helping the dalish?  No, they removed canticle of Shartan out of spite or punishment.  Again misguided and juvenile but not corrupt.

To say that something is misguided and juvenile and petty but NOT corrupt is laughable.  To me it just looks like someone is twisting themselves into knots to avoid the "corrupt" label, the irony being that in order to do that they have to go out of their way to concede this negative attribute and that negative one.  "Yes, okay, he's a rapist and a murderer and a thief to boot....but you have absolutely no justification for calling him a liar, damnit!"

He's not a LIAR, Silfren. He just twisted the truth out of juvenile spite and pettiness.

[Silfren]

Plaintiff wrote...

Silfren wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

A) they didn't rewrite it. That would mean they wrote it as the elves aided the Magisters.
They omitted it.
C) They are a religious group, they are well within their rights to remove the canticle.

A & B: They omitted a large section of the Chant of Light itself, the very thing that they preach actively that "it must be sung from all corners of the world" before the Maker returns. They took it out entirely because it had become politically inconvenient to them after the war with the Dales.

How on earth can that possibly be called anything other than corruption?

I offer you a challenge. You say it is not corruption, then give me what it is. In one word only. One word that describes what it is, if not corrupt.

C. Whether they have the right or not is not in question, but their motivations behind it.

Although it would be ironic if they finally got to all corners of the world, and the Maker didn't come until they started preaching the Chant of Light with all the Dissonent Verses included.

Simple.  It is pettyness.  It isn't politically inconvenient.  How could it be?  What is Wolf Blitzer or Larry King going to call them to the carpet?  No, politically they could leave it in and say see what we get for helping the dalish?  No, they removed canticle of Shartan out of spite or punishment.  Again misguided and juvenile but not corrupt.

To say that something is misguided and juvenile and petty but NOT corrupt is laughable.  To me it just looks like someone is twisting themselves into knots to avoid the "corrupt" label, the irony being that in order to do that they have to go out of their way to concede this negative attribute and that negative one.  "Yes, okay, he's a rapist and a murderer and a thief to boot....but you have absolutely no justification for calling him a liar, damnit!"

He's not a LIAR, Silfren. He just twisted the truth out of juvenile spite and pettiness.

Funny how most people can agree when politicians get called out for corruption, but if anyone dares suggest the same of a religious entity, some people will go to desperate length to deny it. 

See how that works, this thing about religious bias, ya'll who keep holding it up as the reason people see corruption where it allegedly doesn't exist?  We can do it too---your own refusal to see corruption that is obvious to the rest of us looks an awful lot like bias to me. 

[dragonflight288]

Silfren wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Silfren wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

A) they didn't rewrite it. That would mean they wrote it as the elves aided the Magisters.
They omitted it.
C) They are a religious group, they are well within their rights to remove the canticle.

A & B: They omitted a large section of the Chant of Light itself, the very thing that they preach actively that "it must be sung from all corners of the world" before the Maker returns. They took it out entirely because it had become politically inconvenient to them after the war with the Dales.

How on earth can that possibly be called anything other than corruption?

I offer you a challenge. You say it is not corruption, then give me what it is. In one word only. One word that describes what it is, if not corrupt.

C. Whether they have the right or not is not in question, but their motivations behind it.

Although it would be ironic if they finally got to all corners of the world, and the Maker didn't come until they started preaching the Chant of Light with all the Dissonent Verses included.

Simple.  It is pettyness.  It isn't politically inconvenient.  How could it be?  What is Wolf Blitzer or Larry King going to call them to the carpet?  No, politically they could leave it in and say see what we get for helping the dalish?  No, they removed canticle of Shartan out of spite or punishment.  Again misguided and juvenile but not corrupt.

To say that something is misguided and juvenile and petty but NOT corrupt is laughable.  To me it just looks like someone is twisting themselves into knots to avoid the "corrupt" label, the irony being that in order to do that they have to go out of their way to concede this negative attribute and that negative one.  "Yes, okay, he's a rapist and a murderer and a thief to boot....but you have absolutely no justification for calling him a liar, damnit!"

He's not a LIAR, Silfren. He just twisted the truth out of juvenile spite and pettiness.

Funny how most people can agree when politicians get called out for corruption, but if anyone dares suggest the same of a religious entity, some people will go to desperate length to deny it. 

See how that works, this thing about religious bias, ya'll who keep holding it up as the reason people see corruption where it allegedly doesn't exist?  We can do it too---your own refusal to see corruption that is obvious to the rest of us looks an awful lot like bias to me. 

I think Plaintiff is agreeing with you, and thought you called wcholcomb a liar.

[Br3admax]

So yeah, I don't like the Chantry so much, so I don't like it. Boo, Chantry.

[Silfren]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Silfren wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

A) they didn't rewrite it. That would mean they wrote it as the elves aided the Magisters.
They omitted it.
C) They are a religious group, they are well within their rights to remove the canticle.

A & B: They omitted a large section of the Chant of Light itself, the very thing that they preach actively that "it must be sung from all corners of the world" before the Maker returns. They took it out entirely because it had become politically inconvenient to them after the war with the Dales.

How on earth can that possibly be called anything other than corruption?

I offer you a challenge. You say it is not corruption, then give me what it is. In one word only. One word that describes what it is, if not corrupt.

C. Whether they have the right or not is not in question, but their motivations behind it.

Although it would be ironic if they finally got to all corners of the world, and the Maker didn't come until they started preaching the Chant of Light with all the Dissonent Verses included.

Simple.  It is pettyness.  It isn't politically inconvenient.  How could it be?  What is Wolf Blitzer or Larry King going to call them to the carpet?  No, politically they could leave it in and say see what we get for helping the dalish?  No, they removed canticle of Shartan out of spite or punishment.  Again misguided and juvenile but not corrupt.

To say that something is misguided and juvenile and petty but NOT corrupt is laughable.  To me it just looks like someone is twisting themselves into knots to avoid the "corrupt" label, the irony being that in order to do that they have to go out of their way to concede this negative attribute and that negative one.  "Yes, okay, he's a rapist and a murderer and a thief to boot....but you have absolutely no justification for calling him a liar, damnit!"

He's not a LIAR, Silfren. He just twisted the truth out of juvenile spite and pettiness.

Funny how most people can agree when politicians get called out for corruption, but if anyone dares suggest the same of a religious entity, some people will go to desperate length to deny it. 

See how that works, this thing about religious bias, ya'll who keep holding it up as the reason people see corruption where it allegedly doesn't exist?  We can do it too---your own refusal to see corruption that is obvious to the rest of us looks an awful lot like bias to me. 

I think Plaintiff is agreeing with you, and thought you called wcholcomb a liar.

Oh, I wasn't directing that at Plaintiff.  Re: liars, he was referencing what I said about being a murder, rapist, and thief, but NOT a liar damnit!

Modifié par Silfren, 28 octobre 2013 - 03:51 .

[dragonflight288]

Oh, I know that. I wasn't referring to Plaintiff at all, but agreeing with him.

Oh, I misread the inflection then.

[dragonflight288]

I was going through old threads in the DA2 section, and came across this. This is a link to a wall-of-text I wrote to a question about mages and templars, and I went over, in length, the corruption of the Chantry.

By the way, I edited later on in the thread a few mistakes I made in that wall of text, so if you see them, please understand that I caught them and corrected them later in the thread, and didn't really edit them in the original.

[BioWareMod02]

Careful with the quote pyramids, guys

[EmperorSahlertz]

Silfren wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

A) they didn't rewrite it. That would mean they wrote it as the elves aided the Magisters.
They omitted it.
C) They are a religious group, they are well within their rights to remove the canticle.

A & B: They omitted a large section of the Chant of Light itself, the very thing that they preach actively that "it must be sung from all corners of the world" before the Maker returns. They took it out entirely because it had become politically inconvenient to them after the war with the Dales.

How on earth can that possibly be called anything other than corruption?

I offer you a challenge. You say it is not corruption, then give me what it is. In one word only. One word that describes what it is, if not corrupt.

C. Whether they have the right or not is not in question, but their motivations behind it.

Although it would be ironic if they finally got to all corners of the world, and the Maker didn't come until they started preaching the Chant of Light with all the Dissonent Verses included.

Simple.  It is pettyness.  It isn't politically inconvenient.  How could it be?  What is Wolf Blitzer or Larry King going to call them to the carpet?  No, politically they could leave it in and say see what we get for helping the dalish?  No, they removed canticle of Shartan out of spite or punishment.  Again misguided and juvenile but not corrupt.

To say that something is misguided and juvenile and petty but NOT corrupt is laughable.  To me it just looks like someone is twisting themselves into knots to avoid the "corrupt" label, the irony being that in order to do that they have to go out of their way to concede this negative attribute and that negative one.  "Yes, okay, he's a rapist and a murderer and a thief to boot....but you have absolutely no justification for calling him a liar, damnit!"

Childlike and petty behavior is now a sign of corruption! Hear it here first! Your source of ridiculous statements pulled directly out the ****! BSN!

And yes. No one is arguing that the Chantry aren't having some less than amicable traits. But corruption on an oganizational level, is not one of them. That is why we take issue with people, who obviously doesn't even grasp the actual meaning of the word "corruption", desparately tries to pin it on the Chantry.
I would also take issue if you tried to pin "rapist" on to a man who was just a "murderer". It wouldn't be just. YOU would be the liar in this case.

[Lotion Soronarr]

dragonflight288 wrote...
A & B: They omitted a large section of the Chant of Light itself, the very thing that they preach actively that "it must be sung from all corners of the world" before the Maker returns. They took it out entirely because it had become politically inconvenient to them after the war with the Dales.

How on earth can that possibly be called anything other than corruption?

I
offer you a challenge. You say it is not corruption, then give me what
it is. In one word only. One word that describes what it is, if not
corrupt.

I think you misunderstand the Chant of Light.

Removing a canticle is no more of an affront than removing a letter of st. Bernard from the Bible.
Because the core of the Chant of light is importnat.
Not the individual bits that were are added to it later.

The bit with Shartan can harldy be the original bit of the Makers religion, given that it is just a historical tale, and not the original message given to Andraste.

Removing later additions is not corruption.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
I've already answered this. The Chantry represents Andraste as the author.

You think Andraste wrote the canticle of Shartan?
Extreemly unlikely.

So it's totally okay to alter the Bible because you don't like what's in it?

Depends entirely on what you are altering.

Psalm 258 ,added in 1358 by st. Gregoir? Yeah, not a big deal.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
I've already answered this. The Chantry represents Andraste as the author.

You think Andraste wrote the canticle of Shartan?
Extreemly unlikely.

What you don't think Andraste rose from her Ashes for just a few minutes to write about how Shartan helped her out and tried to save her from death, but ended up dying himself? I mean, obviously that MUST be the case, right?

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

So it's totally okay to alter the Bible because you don't like what's in it?

Depends entirely on what you are altering.

Psalm 258 ,added in 1358 by st. Gregoir? Yeah, not a big deal.

CORRUPTION! How dare they... The entire message of christianity have been compromised by this affront! RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!

[Jaison1986]

dragonflight288 wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

A) they didn't rewrite it. That would mean they wrote it as the elves aided the Magisters.
They omitted it.
C) They are a religious group, they are well within their rights to remove the canticle.

A & B: They omitted a large section of the Chant of Light itself, the very thing that they preach actively that "it must be sung from all corners of the world" before the Maker returns. They took it out entirely because it had become politically inconvenient to them after the war with the Dales.

How on earth can that possibly be called anything other than corruption?

I offer you a challenge. You say it is not corruption, then give me what it is. In one word only. One word that describes what it is, if not corrupt.

C. Whether they have the right or not is not in question, but their motivations behind it.

Although it would be ironic if they finally got to all corners of the world, and the Maker didn't come until they started preaching the Chant of Light with all the Dissonent Verses included.

Simple.  It is pettyness.  It isn't politically inconvenient.  How could it be?  What is Wolf Blitzer or Larry King going to call them to the carpet?  No, politically they could leave it in and say see what we get for helping the dalish?  No, they removed canticle of Shartan out of spite or punishment.  Again misguided and juvenile but not corrupt.

Pettyness? You're saying that the Chantry as a large-scale organization, who were the ones who set up elves to live in alienages in cities, who removed the Canticle of Shartan around the time it became politically inconvenient for them to have anything positive about elves in their scriptures because of the war with the Dales, did so out of pettyness?

EDIT: Let's say you're right and I'm wrong, but in the end, how is pettyness any better than corruption? What that would ultimately mean is that the Chantry as an institution is childish and thereby should not be in charge of teaching morality because acts of pettyness rarely are acts of morality. Next to never. Also, when the Chantry is petty instead of corrupt, all it means is that a bunch of immature children will take their ball and go home because things don't to their way, and then ask mom and dad to go and kill the kids who dared disagree with them.

Rivain had the veil sundered in an exalted march, an act of genocide, which the Chantry vehemently denied doing despite being the guilty party. That is genocide, murder, and covering the evidence. If that is an act of pettyness and not corruption, then the Chantry doesn't deserve to have ANY followers at all.

This gotta be one of the most accurate descriptions of the Chantry I had ever heard.

[wcholcombe]

Simple. To say the Chantry is organizationally corrupt would mean to say that as an institution it has this secret agenda that all its members buy into. That it is all some hidden scheme to control the world and this and that. The opposite is in fact the case, the Chantry does have corrupt members, but it by far has more that hold to the meanings and beliefs of what the faith truly means and stands for.

Contrary to what people on here think-in large part because of the focus of the games-the chantry does far far more than just keep track of mages.

While the Chantry has plenty of negatives, it also has a large number of positives. It as an institution is not corrupt. The problem is that it has members who are.

Seriously you think that when the divine had to flee Val Royeux she wasn't wanting some payback against those damned pointed eared bastards?

Sure she was. Her way to do it was to remove a 6 line verse from the chant of light. Then they basically decided to make sure the dalish would never again be a threat by scattering them to the winds in alienages---ala what Rome did to Carthage.

Again, there is no political invconvenience to the Canticle of Shartan because the dalish have little to no political influence. Personally if I had it in for the Dalish I would have left it in and used it along with what later happened as an example of why you shouldn't help the elves.

[Killdren88]

I compare the Chantry to the Catholic Church back in the dark ages. They had the largest political authority in Europe at the time. You couldn't be a king without their blessing, and like the Chantry they twisted and distorted their founder's words for their own political needs and justification for doing horrible things.