1420 réponses à ce sujet

[cjones91]

Killdren88 wrote...

I compare the Chantry to the Catholic Church back in the dark ages. They had the largest political authority in Europe at the time. You couldn't be a king without their blessing, and like the Chantry they twisted and distorted their founder's words for their own political needs and justification for doing horrible things.

Yep,and just like the Roman Catholic Church the Chantry's power base is falling apart.

[leaguer of one]

wcholcombe wrote...

Simple. To say the Chantry is organizationally corrupt would mean to say that as an institution it has this secret agenda that all its members buy into. That it is all some hidden scheme to control the world and this and that. The opposite is in fact the case, the Chantry does have corrupt members, but it by far has more that hold to the meanings and beliefs of what the faith truly means and stands for.

Contrary to what people on here think-in large part because of the focus of the games-the chantry does far far more than just keep track of mages.

While the Chantry has plenty of negatives, it also has a large number of positives. It as an institution is not corrupt. The problem is that it has members who are.

Seriously you think that when the divine had to flee Val Royeux she wasn't wanting some payback against those damned pointed eared bastards?

Sure she was. Her way to do it was to remove a 6 line verse from the chant of light. Then they basically decided to make sure the dalish would never again be a threat by scattering them to the winds in alienages---ala what Rome did to Carthage.

Again, there is no political invconvenience to the Canticle of Shartan because the dalish have little to no political influence. Personally if I had it in for the Dalish I would have left it in and used it along with what later happened as an example of why you shouldn't help the elves.

Wrong. It mean that are many indivisuals that have their own agenda, not as an organisation. Also, the fact that they bend to there benifactors the most. Stop trying to spin this. They are currupt.

[EmperorSahlertz]

So many people with no clue as to what corrupt means..... It's sad...

[Lotion Soronarr]

wcholcombe wrote...
Sure she was. Her way to do it was to remove a 6 line verse from the chant of light. Then they basically decided to make sure the dalish would never again be a threat by scattering them to the winds in alienages---ala what Rome did to Carthage.

The Chantry didn't control the armies that sacked the Dales.

What the Chantry did - to prevent extermination of elves - is demand that elves be given a home in the cities.
Alas, kings and dukes have only paid lip service to that, hence the alianages.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So many people with no clue as to what corrupt means..... It's sad...

The definition of corruption and how people perceive it is always subjective.

[Hellion Rex]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...
Sure she was. Her way to do it was to remove a 6 line verse from the chant of light. Then they basically decided to make sure the dalish would never again be a threat by scattering them to the winds in alienages---ala what Rome did to Carthage.

The Chantry didn't control the armies that sacked the Dales.

What the Chantry did - to prevent extermination of elves - is demand that elves be given a home in the cities.
Alas, kings and dukes have only paid lip service to that, hence the alianages.

Still, the Chantry did set the ball rolling by calling for an Exalted March.

And it is rather unfortunate that the Chantry's hope for elves was pretty much ignored, leaving the City elves to be left as the lowest class citizens.

[EmperorSahlertz]

eluvianix wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...
Sure she was. Her way to do it was to remove a 6 line verse from the chant of light. Then they basically decided to make sure the dalish would never again be a threat by scattering them to the winds in alienages---ala what Rome did to Carthage.

The Chantry didn't control the armies that sacked the Dales.

What the Chantry did - to prevent extermination of elves - is demand that elves be given a home in the cities.
Alas, kings and dukes have only paid lip service to that, hence the alianages.

Still, the Chantry did set the ball rolling by calling for an Exalted March.

And it is rather unfortunate that the Chantry's hope for elves was pretty much ignored, leaving the City elves to be left as the lowest class citizens.

I'd say the Dalish managed to **** that up by themselves perfectly. They shouldn't expect to attack the seat of the Chantry and have it go unanswered.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...
Sure she was. Her way to do it was to remove a 6 line verse from the chant of light. Then they basically decided to make sure the dalish would never again be a threat by scattering them to the winds in alienages---ala what Rome did to Carthage.

The Chantry didn't control the armies that sacked the Dales.

What the Chantry did - to prevent extermination of elves - is demand that elves be given a home in the cities.
Alas, kings and dukes have only paid lip service to that, hence the alianages.

Still, the Chantry did set the ball rolling by calling for an Exalted March.

And it is rather unfortunate that the Chantry's hope for elves was pretty much ignored, leaving the City elves to be left as the lowest class citizens.

I'd say the Dalish managed to **** that up by themselves perfectly. They shouldn't expect to attack the seat of the Chantry and have it go unanswered.

I am not disagreeing. Both sides were at some fault. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...
Sure she was. Her way to do it was to remove a 6 line verse from the chant of light. Then they basically decided to make sure the dalish would never again be a threat by scattering them to the winds in alienages---ala what Rome did to Carthage.

The Chantry didn't control the armies that sacked the Dales.

What the Chantry did - to prevent extermination of elves - is demand that elves be given a home in the cities.
Alas, kings and dukes have only paid lip service to that, hence the alianages.

Still, the Chantry did set the ball rolling by calling for an Exalted March.

And it is rather unfortunate that the Chantry's hope for elves was pretty much ignored, leaving the City elves to be left as the lowest class citizens.

I'd say the Dalish managed to **** that up by themselves perfectly. They shouldn't expect to attack the seat of the Chantry and have it go unanswered.

I am not disagreeing. Both sides were at some fault. 

I don't think the Chantry was involved in the conflict at all, until the Dalish forced their hand. The Orlesians on the other hand, was involved from the start, along with the Dalish. Both of these are at fault, but not the Chantry. if you ask me.

[dragonflight288]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So many people with no clue as to what corrupt means..... It's sad...

Oh? If this is true, then enlighten us, what does 'corrupt' mean?

[Urazz]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

I don't think the Chantry was involved in the conflict at all, until the Dalish forced their hand. The Orlesians on the other hand, was involved from the start, along with the Dalish. Both of these are at fault, but not the Chantry. if you ask me.

Didn't the Chantry essentially send it's followers to try to convert the Dalish?  On top of that, some humans were ignoring that the Dales belonged to the Dalish and were moving into their territory.  The Chantry doesn't get all the blame here but the Dalish were pretty much forced into fighting back for the most part.

[Lotion Soronarr]

They were forced into sacking Val Royaux?

[Hellion Rex]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

They were forced into sacking Val Royaux?

"The taking of the Dales was a struggle with several possible causes. The Dalish claim it was simple racist and religious persecution, saying templars invaded their kingdom when they kicked out Chantry missionaries. The Chantry holds that it was triggered by the elves practicing dark magic and offering human sacrifices to their pagan gods. The human settlements near the Dales believe it was set by a series of Dalish raids on their towns while many historians say that it was due to the Dales refusing to help humanity during the Second Blight. Originally, only the Orlesian Empire went to battle, and the Dalish elves responded with a fury that the Empire couldn't deal with. The elves made serious gains until the other Andrastian nations joined the March."

Modifié par eluvianix, 28 octobre 2013 - 10:35 .

[Lazy Jer]

wcholcombe wrote...

The divine??  To my knowledge she hasn't done anything corrupt, she is trying to reform the chantry which for an organization such as itself is quite the painful process.

My answer: No.  The new gal in the comfy Chantry chair isn't corrupt.  She's very young and appears to want to change things for the better for mages.

The Templars??  Setting aside for the moment that most of them appear to have left the chantry with the nullification of the accords, I haven't seen evidence of them being outright corrupt.  The Lord Seeker does and wants done some very questionable acts, but it isn't like he is accumulating personal power through these acts, he is doing what he believes is in the best interest of Thedas not he himself.  And no, I am in no way a fan of the Lord Seeker, but that doesn't mean he is some power hungry corrupt politician.

My answer:  Some of them are, some of them aren't.  Gregor and Cullen don't strike me as being corrupt, whereas the guy who wrote the Tranquil Solution clearly was.  Organizations are just organizations.  They are rarely corrupt in and of themselves.  It's the people in it that are corrupt or not.

Now Lord Seeker Lambert IS corrupt.  Doing what he thinks is right doesn't exempt him from corruption, in fact it's often a convenient excuse the corrupt give themselves.  The fact that he pretty much decides what he's going to do, Divine, Chantry or rules be hanged, says corruption in my book, as well as the fact that he doesn't seem too keen on listening to people giving him opinions that differ from his own.

The Reverend Mother in Lothering??  Seriously I have seen this example because she is witholding of a blessing if you don't make a donation to the Chantry.  Sorry, people gotta eat.  There isn't anything wrong with expecting you to make a small contribution in exchange for recieving her blessing.  She provides a service and you make a donation in return, I don't see the problem here.

My answer: No comment.  The woman has about two scenes in the entire game, plus she's the Reverend Mother of Lothering.  Have you people seen Lothering, it's not exactly the Los Angeles of it's world.  It's probably the Wamsutter, Wyoming of it's world.  The reverend mother of a town the size of Lothering isn't really representative of the Chantry as a whole.

Meredith??  Because she accepts a bribe in Kirkwall to let you into the city?  As I have said elsewhere, she isn't living it up at the Gallows.  Her room is plain.  The bribe was probably to help support the expense of letting you into the city and feeding you.

My answer:  She didn't accept the bribe, either Merin or Athenril do.  But she is corrupt.  She refuses to cede power to where it belongs after Act 2, she tries to go over Elthina's head to do the Rite of Annulment and she's in possession of a lyrium idol that sings Guns & Roses' "They're Out To Get Me" in her head 24/7.  She's corrupt in a lot of ways, even if she does believe in her cause.

Grand Cleric Elthina?  I don't know of anything she did that was corrupt, other than trying to play peace keeper between the mages and templars and trying to help Sebastian deal with his issues, I can't think of anything she does you could remotely call corupt?

My answer: No.  That being said she was the wrong Grand Cleric to be put in charge of a person like Knight-Commander Meredith.  She didn't exert her authority over her nearly enough.  Nice woman, but way too meek.  I do give her credit, though, for actually sitting down between the Knight Commander and the First Enchanter.  If she was really corrupt she'd just tell Orsino to stop whining and send him to his room without supper.

Because the Chantry has misrepresented Andraste etc etc etc?  If, and I am saying if, the Chantry is not teaching the truth of what happened with Andraste, the 1st blight, Andraste's view on mages or being a mage herself, etc etc.  Do you honestly think anyone today 1,000 years after the fact, consciously is aware of the truth and seeking to cover it up?  Its not like Drakon got together with the founders of the Chantry and the founder of the Imperial Chantry which predates the chantry, and wrote down a journal of how they were going to misconstrue events and kept it around as evidence that the Divine keeps locked up in a chest under her bed.  If the original founders of the Chantry changed historical fact, the current members of the Chantry are ignorant of those changes and are teaching what they beleive to be accurate.  Even if they question some of the authenticity, they aren't actively participating in a coverup.

My answer:  I'd have to really look further into the lore of the Chantry to tell if the ideas are corrupt.  Like I said, the organization is only as corrupt as it's people or it's ideals, and if the ideals were really all that bad then the Chantry would be about as loved as blood magic is right now.

Because we are Pro Dalish?  Ok, if you don't like the Chantry because you think the Dalish were innocently defending themselves when the big bad Chantry called an exalted march and destroyed the dales fine.  We don't know at this time and I doubt we will ever know with 100% accuracy what happened with that war.  However, not liking the chantry because of its past again does not make them corrupt.  The reverend mother teaching the history of the Chantry isn't saying the dalish are blood thirsty barbarians because she is corrupt, it is what she has been taught.  It no more makes the Chantry corrupt than it makes the Dalish corrupt for having a very atagonistic attitude to non dalish.

My answer:  Well first of all anytime a war on that scale is waged no party is 100% pure and innocent, or at least that's very rare.  That being said, elves have more than enough reasons not to like the Chantry.  The Dales weren't just attacked, they were actually taken from the elves and the elves either had to turn into nomads or occupy the crappiest parts of the city.

Now the Chantry may not be directly effecting the poor treatment of the city elves now, that's probably a lot more due to the local governments and the attitudes of the people, but the Chantry isn't doing a lot to help either.  The fact that Shartan is still in the dissonant verses rather then part of the main Chant of Light says a lot.

Again, not saying the Chantry doesn't have problems, just curious where this attitude of the Chantry being the most corrupt thing in Thedas comes from?

  It's not.  Like any major organization it has it's corrupt bits and it's non-corrupt bits.  But the Chantry takes a lot of heat due to it being more or less dead center of the Mage vs. Templar debates.

[CroGamer002]

Killdren88 wrote...

I compare the Chantry to the Catholic Church back in the dark ages. They had the largest political authority in Europe at the time. You couldn't be a king without their blessing, and like the Chantry they twisted and distorted their founder's words for their own political needs and justification for doing horrible things.

1. Dark Ages is nothing but Renascence and 19th century nonsense and all modern historians reject it.

2. You didn't need pope's blessing to be a king, but it improves your throne legitimacy. Especially if you are a self-proclaimed king.

3. Both of those things don't even apply to the Dragon Age lore, as only "dark ages" we seen is when the Blight occurs. As well no such thing as mandatory blessing from the Divine to be legally a king.


Only the part of twisting and distorting the founders word is correct, but I haven't seen the Chantry doing that much as whole. Yes it's often done with Templar's, but not much anywhere else.

[Hellion Rex]

Mesina2 wrote...

Killdren88 wrote...

I compare the Chantry to the Catholic Church back in the dark ages. They had the largest political authority in Europe at the time. You couldn't be a king without their blessing, and like the Chantry they twisted and distorted their founder's words for their own political needs and justification for doing horrible things.

1. Dark Ages is nothing but Renascence and 19th century nonsense and all modern historians reject it.

2. You didn't need pope's blessing to be a king, but it improves your throne legitimacy. Especially if you are a self-proclaimed king.

3. Both of those things don't even apply to the Dragon Age lore, as only "dark ages" we seen is when the Blight occurs. As well no such thing as mandatory blessing from the Divine to be legally a king.


Only the part of twisting and distorting the founders word is correct, but I haven't seen the Chantry doing that much as whole. Yes it's often done with Templar's, but not much anywhere else.

While I do agree that the Chantry is not a Dark Ages version of the Catholic Church, the Dark Ages were still a very real thing. However, it is not far off to say that the Chantry is very allegorical to the medieval Catholic Church.

[CroGamer002]

eluvianix wrote...

While I do agree that the Chantry is not a Dark Ages version of the Catholic Church, the Dark Ages were still a very real thing. However, it is not far off to say that the Chantry is very allegorical to the medieval Catholic Church.

I'd suggest for you and others to take a small trip to /r/AskHistorian on the Dark Ages issue.

Subreddit is run by actual historians, so it's not just some random internet dudes.

You can check this Wikipedia article on it as well.


But yes, the Chantry is very allegorical to the Catholic Church. It's just not as dark as many people believe it is.

[ShadowLordXII]

wcholcombe wrote...

I don't mean to sound like a Chantry defender, but I guess it is just that they seem to be the dog everyone is wanting to kick at the moment, however everyone keeps saying the Chantry is corrupt.

Who and or what are you referring to as being corrupt?

For me, the entire infrastructure is broken/corrupt and this is reflected in nearly every compartment. Such as the few listed below:

1) Encouragement  and silent condonement of discrimination and oppression of elves. Including the ommission of Shartan's role in Andraste's crusade.

2) Knowing and Willing indoctrination of templars through control of the lyrium trade and inducing addiction in templars to use and control them.

3) A clear bias in favoring Orlais such as how they said nothing when Orlais invaded and brutally occupied Ferelden.

4) Right of Anullment and Tranquility without any checks towards it's abuse by the templar order.

5) Condemning any usage of Blood Magic while also using it themselves. Hypocrisy anyone?

I'm not saying that the Qunari or the Imperium is better, but I'm convinced that the Chantry needs to be changed from the ground up. Something that I hope we can do in Inquisition once the facts show how their mess contributed to this mess that everyone's in.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
I've already answered this. The Chantry represents Andraste as the author.

You think Andraste wrote the canticle of Shartan?
Extreemly unlikely.

What you don't think Andraste rose from her Ashes for just a few minutes to write about how Shartan helped her out and tried to save her from death, but ended up dying himself? I mean, obviously that MUST be the case, right?

Let me try this again...

The premise of much of what the Chantry does is that the Chant is a collection of sacred truths handed down from Andraste. If this is true, they have no business dropping bits of it over mere earthly politics. If this is false, they're massively overrepresenting it's importance by... basically their entire religion. If this is true of the Canticle of Andraste and false about the rest of it, then they're massively overrepresenting the importance of the rest of it. The prime example of this would be Transfiguration (from which they drew their prohibition on Blood Magic.) (Edit: The Divine who did this did so on the premise that reading the Chant of Light and basing her arguments on it was superior to mere reasoning due to Andraste providing the Chant. Given the reasoning with which she interpreted the Chant, I almost agree that it's a better idea than using her logic.)

I have said this repeatedly. I don't believe I've seen any counterargument against it.

Edit: You may provide a link to anything in that direction I've missed. If I've erred, I will adknowledge it.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 29 octobre 2013 - 03:49 .

[dragonflight288]

@ ShadowLord

Adding on to number 3 of your list. Not only did the Chantry not say anything about Orlais occupying Ferelden and stay silent while the Orlesians abused the Fereldens horribly, they actively supported them in the war between them, to the point of lending the Orlesians as many mages from the Circle as the Orlesians felt they needed, and denied Fereldens any mages at all.

They only started changing their tune when it became obvious that Ferelden has started winning the war, and they realized their support of Orlais could, and in fact nearly did, get them kicked out of Ferelden.

[NocteAngelus]

I am sorry if this has been mentioned before on this thread I did not feel like reading 51+ pages but, NO ONE EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!!!!!

[Lotion Soronarr]

ShadowLordXII wrote...

For me, the entire infrastructure is broken/corrupt and this is reflected in nearly every compartment. Such as the few listed below:

1) Encouragement  and silent condonement of discrimination and oppression of elves. Including the ommission of Shartan's role in Andraste's crusade.

The Chantry encouranges elven opression? Since when?

2) Knowing and Willing indoctrination of templars through control of the lyrium trade and inducing addiction in templars to use and control them.

That's the only way to create templars and the templars know it. Ther'es nothing the Chantry can do about it, other than not have templars - adn that is not an option.

4) Right of Anullment and Tranquility without any checks towards it's abuse by the templar order.

It requires approval by the Grand Cleric and some evidence.

5) Condemning any usage of Blood Magic while also using it themselves. Hypocrisy anyone?

Not hypocrisy. The plachyetires function fundametnally a differnt purpose.
They are locators. Nothing more, nothing less.
They cannot be used to syphon blood, life or power or mind control.
They are basicly vials of blood with a magic spells that points you in the direction of a person whos' blood fills the vial.

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...
Sure she was. Her way to do it was to remove a 6 line verse from the chant of light. Then they basically decided to make sure the dalish would never again be a threat by scattering them to the winds in alienages---ala what Rome did to Carthage.

The Chantry didn't control the armies that sacked the Dales.

What the Chantry did - to prevent extermination of elves - is demand that elves be given a home in the cities.
Alas, kings and dukes have only paid lip service to that, hence the alianages.

Still, the Chantry did set the ball rolling by calling for an Exalted March.

And it is rather unfortunate that the Chantry's hope for elves was pretty much ignored, leaving the City elves to be left as the lowest class citizens.

I'd say the Dalish managed to **** that up by themselves perfectly. They shouldn't expect to attack the seat of the Chantry and have it go unanswered.

I am not disagreeing. Both sides were at some fault. 

I don't think the Chantry was involved in the conflict at all, until the Dalish forced their hand. The Orlesians on the other hand, was involved from the start, along with the Dalish. Both of these are at fault, but not the Chantry. if you ask me.

The Chantry and Orlais are so closely connected that there is no way that one could be said to act without the other.  People tend to forget that Orlais is not only is the modern day seat of the Chantry, but where the Chantry began.  The very empire of Orlais was built around Emperor Drakon's religious zeal and his intention to spread the Chant of Light to all the corners of the world via imperial conquest.

Modifié par Silfren, 29 octobre 2013 - 08:37 .

[Silfren]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

5) Condemning any usage of Blood Magic while also using it themselves. Hypocrisy anyone?

Not hypocrisy. The plachyetires function fundametnally a differnt purpose.
They are locators. Nothing more, nothing less.
They cannot be used to syphon blood, life or power or mind control.
They are basicly vials of blood with a magic spells that points you in the direction of a person whos' blood fills the vial.

Regardless of what phylacteries are used for, they ARE an example of the Chantry using blood magic for its own purposes while condemning it otherwise. 

That said, you are incorrect.  It is stated in the lore that spells can be cast on a mage if you have their phylactery at hand.  Tracking a mage may be the primary intention, but it is by no means the only thing possible.

Modifié par Silfren, 29 octobre 2013 - 08:51 .

[Boycott Bioware]

Mesina2 wrote...
I'd suggest for you and others to take a small trip to /r/AskHistorian on the Dark Ages issue.

Subreddit is run by actual historians, so it's not just some random internet dudes.

You can check this Wikipedia article on it as well.

But yes, the Chantry is very allegorical to the Catholic Church. It's just not as dark as many people believe it is.

It depends on which historians...surely modern western historians will try to deny Dark Age. Instead of "Dark Age", they prefer to use "Medieval"

Arabs don't shy with "Jahiliyah" Age that is similar to Dark Age

Don't liking the past doesn't make it untrue