1420 réponses à ce sujet

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Rivain Chantry is the same as the White Chantry. And the only major differences between the Black and the White Chantry is that the black interprets "Magic is meant to serve man, and never to rule him" differently, and that they allow for men to achieve higher ranks within the Chantry.

And the comming time of crisis won't weaken the Chantry necessarily. Hell, times of crisis are known to see a soaring rise in faithful. "No atheist in a foxhole" and all that. They might struggle to maintain the same military power as they once had, but they can gain influence in other areas.

The Rivain Chantry is not the same as the White Chantry, no; it is more progressive.  The lore is clear enough on this point, due to Rivain's mix of cultures, that I really don't see why you would argue against it.

I think that "only major difference", between the Imperial and Orlesian Chantries is a great deal more significant than you are trying to claim.  The variance in the way each sect interprets that particular line affects the overall doctrine a great deal, and that doctrine bleeds into the culture at large. 

Plus, unless I'm mistaken, there's lore indicating that the Tevinter Chantry actually views Andraste herself differently from the White Chantry.  (And I'm not necessarily referring to the belief that Andraste was an exceptionally powerful mage).

Finally...er, the Chantry IS weakened, full stop.  Per the end of DA2, which takes place at some point after Asunder if I remember correctly, the Chantry is fallen to pieces.  That could indicate a lot of things, but a stronger, more powerful Chantry ain't one of 'em.

Don't even get me started on that "no atheist in a foxhole" crap, which is the most idiotic drivel ever.

Modifié par Silfren, 31 octobre 2013 - 07:21 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Rivain CHantry is trying its ahrdest to convert the entirety of Rivian, and the second it found out about Darsimund it ordered its annulment. Doesn't sound very "progressive" even though it is at least trying to stamp out degenerate and horrid practices.

I was talking more about the difference on paper, not practice. But come to think of it, I seem to recall that the Black Chantry also claims that Andraste wasn't actually the Bride of the Maker, but just a powerful mage. Might ahve mixed it up though. Which of course would mean there are a major difference. But then again, the WHite Chantry is trying its hardest to bring down the Black Chantry.

And Varric says it is fallen to pieces. As we know he likes his embelishment, and it might simply be a reference to the mages and Templars leaving.

And have you EVER been in an actual foxhole? If not then shut your mouth about it.

[dragonflight288]

we know nothing about Rivain except that it followed its own traditions, it was mostly peaceful between the mages, Chantry and the Qun who live in the area, and the only time bad stuff happened was the result of extremist factions forcing violence on another faction, because they didn't really follow the "correct" way of doing things according to that group's ideology.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Rivain CHantry is trying its ahrdest to convert the entirety of Rivian, and the second it found out about Darsimund it ordered its annulment. Doesn't sound very "progressive" even though it is at least trying to stamp out degenerate and horrid practices.

I was talking more about the difference on paper, not practice. But come to think of it, I seem to recall that the Black Chantry also claims that Andraste wasn't actually the Bride of the Maker, but just a powerful mage. Might ahve mixed it up though. Which of course would mean there are a major difference. But then again, the WHite Chantry is trying its hardest to bring down the Black Chantry.

And Varric says it is fallen to pieces. As we know he likes his embelishment, and it might simply be a reference to the mages and Templars leaving.

And have you EVER been in an actual foxhole? If not then shut your mouth about it.

In the bold, what you were referring to is correct. It was first found in a gifted book that you can give to Wynne.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Rivaini Chantry is not a separate entity from the White Chantry, but the it's more progressive for practical reasons in Rivain. Rivain is actually noteworthy for being the only nation in the history of Thedas that appears to have anything approaching religious tolerance for minority communities. No other nation state that we know about, whether human, elven or dwarven has had religious minorities that weren't banned or persecuted.

As for the Qunari I don't they could ever consider another society as capable as their own. They seem to believe specifically in the tenants of the Qun being necessary for the nation that must be. In the event of them encountering another society they respect or find capable, at best they'd believe they have things that are worth incorporating into the rule of the Qun

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 31 octobre 2013 - 07:08 .

[Silfren]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Rivain CHantry is trying its ahrdest to convert the entirety of Rivian, and the second it found out about Darsimund it ordered its annulment. Doesn't sound very "progressive" even though it is at least trying to stamp out degenerate and horrid practices.

Things aren't quite as clear as you suggest, sorry.  The Rivain Chantry sent people to investigate, but there is ZERO reason to believe that the Chantry ordered the annulment.  Moreover, I find it more than a little bizarre anyway that the Chantry could somehow not have known about Dairsmuid and needed an investigation all of a sudden.  I'm well aware of what the lore says on that point, I just don't think it makes a damn bit of sense.

And have you EVER been in an actual foxhole? If not then shut your mouth about it.

I don't think I'll be shutting my mouth about anything.  Yes, I have been in foxholes, metaphorically speaking, and I have known many people in foxholes both metaphorical and literal.  It's bullsh*t.  Devastation on the scale referred to here is just as likely to destroy faith as bolster it, and I'd personally wager it's far MORE likely.  Regardless, the notion is a stupid one with no basis in reality.  Only religionists who cannot believe--or refuse to believe--that people can get along without faith, ever assert it as unassailable fact, despite the fact that there are many, MANY individuals around who prove them wrong.

Modifié par Silfren, 31 octobre 2013 - 07:31 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

And the comming time of crisis won't weaken the Chantry necessarily. Hell, times of crisis are known to see a soaring rise in faithful. "No atheist in a foxhole" and all that. They might struggle to maintain the same military power as they once had, but they can gain influence in other areas.

I'd always thought that line was a joke saying that an athiest in a foxhole would pray anyway just because it was Godzilla Threshold time.

[Silfren]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The Rivain CHantry is trying its ahrdest to convert the entirety of Rivian, and the second it found out about Darsimund it ordered its annulment. Doesn't sound very "progressive" even though it is at least trying to stamp out degenerate and horrid practices.

I was talking more about the difference on paper, not practice. But come to think of it, I seem to recall that the Black Chantry also claims that Andraste wasn't actually the Bride of the Maker, but just a powerful mage. Might ahve mixed it up though. Which of course would mean there are a major difference. But then again, the WHite Chantry is trying its hardest to bring down the Black Chantry.

And Varric says it is fallen to pieces. As we know he likes his embelishment, and it might simply be a reference to the mages and Templars leaving.

And have you EVER been in an actual foxhole? If not then shut your mouth about it.

In the bold, what you were referring to is correct. It was first found in a gifted book that you can give to Wynne.

Regarding the bolded portion, I can't remember precisely: that's in a book, yes, but does it refer to Tevinter belief specifically?  I do seem to remember reading that Tevinter perceives Andraste differently from the Orlesian Chantry, but I was of the understanding that Tevinter DID see her as a prophet of the Maker.

ETA:  I just checked and yes, the codex for the book in question says nothing about that being a Tevinter belief. 

Modifié par Silfren, 31 octobre 2013 - 08:02 .

[The Hierophant]

Rivain Chantry progressive? Weren't they responsible for the genocide of countless converts?

[Silfren]

The Hierophant wrote...

Rivain Chantry progressive? Weren't they responsible for the genocide of countless converts?

Completely OT, where is your signature quote from?

As to the rest, as I said upthread, I don't think the Chantry ordered the annulment.  That's not really made clear.  I also do NOT believe that the Rivain Chantry was somehow unaware until just recently of the practices of Rivaini mages. 

[The Hierophant]

Silfren wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Rivain Chantry progressive? Weren't they responsible for the genocide of countless converts?

Completely OT, where is your signature quote from?

Steven Erikson's Malazan book of the Fallen.

As to the rest, as I said upthread, I don't think the Chantry ordered the annulment.  That's not really made clear.  I also do NOT believe that the Rivain Chantry was somehow unaware until just recently of the practices of Rivaini mages. 

The Rivaini Chantry branch condoned the breach of Chantry law in regards to Dairsmuid's Circle due to cultural tradition. Even though The Rivaini Chantry knew it seems Val Royeaux was kept in the dark.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 31 octobre 2013 - 07:55 .

[Silfren]

The Hierophant wrote...

Silfren wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Rivain Chantry progressive? Weren't they responsible for the genocide of countless converts?

Completely OT, where is your signature quote from?

Steven Erikson's Malazan book of the Fallen.

It sounds intriguing.  I'll have to put that title in my wish list.

The Hierophant wrote...

As to the rest, as I said upthread, I don't think the Chantry ordered the annulment.  That's not really made clear.  I also do NOT believe that the Rivain Chantry was somehow unaware until just recently of the practices of Rivaini mages. 

The Rivaini Chantry branch condoned the breach of Chantry law in regards to Dairsmuid's Circle due to cultural tradition. Even though The Rivaini Chantry knew it seems Val Royeaux was kept in the dark.

Hey, tell them that.  *points up*  I'm not the one suggesting that the Rivaini Chantry totally didn't know what the Rivaini seers were doing and decided rather suddenly to Annul the lot of them.

ETA: this is a pretty random aside but I find it interesting that Rivain is supposed to be loosely modeled upon Moorish Spain, while it's capital city's name is decidedly Irish.

Modifié par Silfren, 31 octobre 2013 - 08:11 .

[The Hierophant]

Silfren wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Silfren wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Rivain Chantry progressive? Weren't they responsible for the genocide of countless converts?

Completely OT, where is your signature quote from?

Steven Erikson's Malazan book of the Fallen.

It sounds intriguing.  I'll have to put that title in my wish list.

Good you won't regret it. We need more MBoTF readers on this forum.

Silfren wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

As to the rest, as I said upthread, I don't think the Chantry ordered the annulment.  That's not really made clear.  I also do NOT believe that the Rivain Chantry was somehow unaware until just recently of the practices of Rivaini mages. 

The Rivaini Chantry branch condoned the breach of Chantry law in regards to Dairsmuid's Circle due to cultural tradition. Even though The Rivaini Chantry knew it seems Val Royeaux was kept in the dark.

Hey, tell them that.  *points up*  I'm not the one suggesting that the Rivaini Chantry totally didn't know what the Rivaini seers were doing and decided rather suddenly to Annul the lot of them.

I can't blame them for that belief as i still don't know if Ayesleigh is in Antivan or Rivaini territory.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 31 octobre 2013 - 08:15 .

[Silfren]

The Hierophant wrote...

Silfren wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Silfren wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Rivain Chantry progressive? Weren't they responsible for the genocide of countless converts?

Completely OT, where is your signature quote from?

Steven Erikson's Malazan book of the Fallen.

It sounds intriguing.  I'll have to put that title in my wish list.

Good you won't regret it. We need more MBoTF readers on this forum.

Saw it at a decent price from on Amazon so I went ahead and bought the first title as an ebook; I'll start it as soon as I'm done with the Robin Hobb series I'm reading.  I'm seeing that the series is compared with Glen Cook's Black Company and GRRM's A Song of Ice and Fire.  I've read most of ASoIaF but only heard of Cook's series.  Do you have an opinion on how it Erikson's series compares to Martin's?

Modifié par Silfren, 31 octobre 2013 - 08:49 .

[dragonflight288]

The Rivaini Chantry branch condoned the breach of Chantry law in regards to Dairsmuid's Circle due to cultural tradition. Even though The Rivaini Chantry knew it seems Val Royeaux was kept in the dark.

Ultimately though, there is nothing that suggests that the Seers went to the Grand Cleric of Rivain to authorize the Right of Annulment in the first place. And we know from the codex on annulments that you need the Divine or the Grand Cleric to authorize one.

[TheButterflyEffect]

Because it forces too many things on people. It isn't a choice, like religion should be - it's forced.

[The Hierophant]

dragonflight288 wrote...

The Rivaini Chantry branch condoned the breach of Chantry law in regards to Dairsmuid's Circle due to cultural tradition. Even though The Rivaini Chantry knew it seems Val Royeaux was kept in the dark.

Ultimately though, there is nothing that suggests that the Seers went to the Grand Cleric of Rivain to authorize the Right of Annulment in the first place. And we know from the codex on annulments that you need the Divine or the Grand Cleric to authorize one.

If they're not allied with the Chantry when it happened then it's illegal regardless of the technicalities.

Though if they were given permission by Antiva's GC then that opens up a can of worms, while we don't know the organization's code of conduct in regards to the chain of command when dealing with a GC who's compromised or knowingly breaks their rules.

[dragonflight288]

The Hierophant wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

The Rivaini Chantry branch condoned the breach of Chantry law in regards to Dairsmuid's Circle due to cultural tradition. Even though The Rivaini Chantry knew it seems Val Royeaux was kept in the dark.

Ultimately though, there is nothing that suggests that the Seers went to the Grand Cleric of Rivain to authorize the Right of Annulment in the first place. And we know from the codex on annulments that you need the Divine or the Grand Cleric to authorize one.

If they're not allied with the Chantry when it happened then it's illegal regardless of the technicalities.

Though if they were given permission by Antiva's GC then that opens up a can of worms, while we don't know the organization's code of conduct in regards to the chain of command when dealing with a GC who's compromised or knowingly breaks their rules.

That's true. And if the Annulment was illegal, all that does in the end is provide a cause for pro-mages to rally around, which they have, over templar abuses.

I just wish the devs gave us more information on that Annulment.

[The Hierophant]

dragonflight288 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

The Rivaini Chantry branch condoned the breach of Chantry law in regards to Dairsmuid's Circle due to cultural tradition. Even though The Rivaini Chantry knew it seems Val Royeaux was kept in the dark.

Ultimately though, there is nothing that suggests that the Seers went to the Grand Cleric of Rivain to authorize the Right of Annulment in the first place. And we know from the codex on annulments that you need the Divine or the Grand Cleric to authorize one.

If they're not allied with the Chantry when it happened then it's illegal regardless of the technicalities.

Though if they were given permission by Antiva's GC then that opens up a can of worms, while we don't know the organization's code of conduct in regards to the chain of command when dealing with a GC who's compromised or knowingly breaks their rules.

That's true. And if the Annulment was illegal, all that does in the end is provide a cause for pro-mages to rally around, which they have, over templar abuses.

I just wish the devs gave us more information on that Annulment.

Indeed.

[MisterJB]

I wonder if Rivain's Circle had more people living in it than Redcliff...

[The Hierophant]

Nah, the First Enchanter in the letter said it was a small circle.

[cjones91]

MisterJB wrote...

I wonder if Rivain's Circle had more people living in it than Redcliff...

What is that supposed to mean?Are you trying to imply that the slaughter of men,women,and children in the hundreds is somehow less important than the people who died at Redcliff?

[Silfren]

dragonflight288 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

The Rivaini Chantry branch condoned the breach of Chantry law in regards to Dairsmuid's Circle due to cultural tradition. Even though The Rivaini Chantry knew it seems Val Royeaux was kept in the dark.

Ultimately though, there is nothing that suggests that the Seers went to the Grand Cleric of Rivain to authorize the Right of Annulment in the first place. And we know from the codex on annulments that you need the Divine or the Grand Cleric to authorize one.

If they're not allied with the Chantry when it happened then it's illegal regardless of the technicalities.

Though if they were given permission by Antiva's GC then that opens up a can of worms, while we don't know the organization's code of conduct in regards to the chain of command when dealing with a GC who's compromised or knowingly breaks their rules.

That's true. And if the Annulment was illegal, all that does in the end is provide a cause for pro-mages to rally around, which they have, over templar abuses.

I just wish the devs gave us more information on that Annulment.

I expect that we'll hear a lot about it in Inquisition, honestly.  It  could just be my own preference to see and hear more about Rivain, but I do think that one of the reasons we've been fed lore about the annulment of Dairsmuid's Circle is because it will figure into Inquisition's story.  The mere fact of Rivain's unusually progressive and tolerant culture put it in an...interesting, shall we say, position within the mage/templar conflict.  There's more implications here than just the possibility for mages and pro-mage supporters to rally together due to the injustice.  The mere fact (or just the perception) of the Chantry's heavyhandedness could well start a movement within Rivain either to have its Chantry split away and become independent, or even to oust the Chantry altogether. 

That is one of the things I would like to see happen, really: That this entire conflict causes major doctrinal splits within the Orlesian Chantry and births a number of independent sects.

Modifié par Silfren, 31 octobre 2013 - 11:34 .

[Medhia Nox]

@cjones91: Are you implying it's more important?

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...

I wonder if Rivain's Circle had more people living in it than Redcliff...

Meaning what, exactly???  What difference does it make?

Modifié par Silfren, 31 octobre 2013 - 11:39 .