1420 réponses à ce sujet

[Medhia Nox]

@Silfren: Well, as someone who employs that type of conversation, I can say it's an attempt to illicit thought instead of just telling someone what to think.

Telling someone what to think is almost always instantly rejected.

I think trying to illicit thought, has a slightly higher level of success. Kinda like a bastardized Socratic method.

[Silfren]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Silfren: Well, as someone who employs that type of conversation, I can say it's an attempt to illicit thought instead of just telling someone what to think.

Telling someone what to think is almost always instantly rejected.

I think trying to illicit thought, has a slightly higher level of success. Kinda like a bastardized Socratic method.

And yet it's quite possible to illicit thought without vague posts that leave people wondering why you can't just make your point and let the conversation start without people being forced to ask for clarification--then again I have never been a a fan of the Socatic method, but that's just me.  Anyway, I edited my post to get rid of the unnecessary snark.

I'd argue that telling people what to think isn't usually rejected at all, instantly or otherwise, judging by how many people will accept what they're told at face value, but that may be my simple nitpicking of what it means to tell people what to think:  people rarely will say "and this is what you must think about the issue," but they do often present their thoughts on a matter as authoritative, which then goes unchallenged by many...and so it amounts to the same thing.

Modifié par Silfren, 31 octobre 2013 - 11:50 .

[cjones91]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@cjones91: Are you implying it's more important?

No I'm not,loss of life is bad no matter how much blood is spilled.

[Jaison1986]

Isn't this a little strange? Rivain aways seem to be the biggest victim of the Chantry cruelty. Not only with the annulement of the Circle. They also commited mass genocide against Rivain citizens when they refused to leave the Qun and worship the maker during the storm age. Leave the Rivains alone!

[MisterJB]

The Hierophant wrote...

Nah, the First Enchanter in the letter said it was a small circle.

Well, most certainly less than all the people killed by the darkspawn in over a thousand years.
And what about the Black Marsh? How many people do you figure lived there?

Modifié par MisterJB, 31 octobre 2013 - 11:53 .

[dragonflight288]

Jaison1986 wrote...

Isn't this a little strange? Rivain aways seem to be the biggest victim of the Chantry cruelty. Not only with the annulement of the Circle. They also commited mass genocide against Rivain citizens when they refused to leave the Qun and worship the maker during the storm age. Leave the Rivains alone!

We will when the Chantry and Qunari do.

[cjones91]

MisterJB wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Nah, the First Enchanter in the letter said it was a small circle.

Well, most certainly less than all the people killed by the darkspawn in over a thousand years.

Innocent people still died...

[MisterJB]

Nobody react to what I'm about to say. I think he might be using magic.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

People seem to love to overuse the word genocide here. There is such a thing as a series of horrible massacres that don't amount to genocide.

Frankly I think the only time I'd say the word was clearly unambiguously warranted was describing the fate of the Dwarven Empire during the First Blight.

Rivain is a place that strikes me as struggling with issues that come with a population that is divided along sectarian lines. Sometimes it erupts into violence and massacres other times the groups find a way to coexist peacefully in ways that might not happen in other places. In this way it reminds me a lot of Lebanon.

The massacre of Qunari in Rivain after the war ended was not perpetrated just by the Chantry, Rivaini nationalists were also responsible.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 01 novembre 2013 - 12:01 .

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

Nah, the First Enchanter in the letter said it was a small circle.

Well, most certainly less than all the people killed by the darkspawn in over a thousand years.
And what about the Black Marsh? How many people do you figure lived there?

....Is your point supposed to be that what happened in Rivain isn't a big deal because of all the other bad things that have happened in Thedas's history?

[cjones91]

MisterJB wrote...



Nobody react to what I'm about to say. I think he might be using magic.

What's your point?The darkspawn have killed mages and mundanes so I don't understand what you're implying with that image of Corpheus.

Modifié par cjones91, 01 novembre 2013 - 12:03 .

[MisterJB]

I'm conducting a census.

[cjones91]

MisterJB wrote...

I'm conducting a census.

About what?

[Silfren]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

People seem to love to overuse the word genocide here. There is such a thing as a series of horrible massacres that don't amount to genocide.

Frankly I think the only time I'd say the word was clearly unambiguously warranted was describing the fate of the Dwarven Empire during the First Blight.

Rivain is a place that strikes me as struggling with issues that come with a population that is divided along sectarian lines. Sometimes it erupts into violence and massacres other times the groups find a way to coexist peacefully in ways that might not happen in other places. In this way it reminds me a lot of Lebanon.

The massacre of Qunari in Rivain after the war ended was not perpetrated just by the Chantry, Rivaini nationalists were also responsible.

I'll grant that the word is often used technically inaccurately, as it was in the post just now I think you are referring to.  But the point is that mass murder was committed.  The Chantry DID attempt to eradicate the Qun in Rivain via a purge by the sword, so it's certainly a good question to ask why the Rivaini people seem to be okay with it.

[Silfren]

cjones91 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

I'm conducting a census.

About what?

You could die of old age waiting for him to get to the point.  Just sayin'.

[Jaison1986]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

People seem to love to overuse the word genocide here. There is such a thing as a series of horrible massacres that don't amount to genocide.

Frankly I think the only time I'd say the word was clearly unambiguously warranted was describing the fate of the Dwarven Empire during the First Blight.

Rivain is a place that strikes me as struggling with issues that come with a population that is divided along sectarian lines. Sometimes it erupts into violence and massacres other times the groups find a way to coexist peacefully in ways that might not happen in other places. In this way it reminds me a lot of Lebanon.

The massacre of Qunari in Rivain after the war ended was not perpetrated just by the Chantry, Rivaini nationalists were also responsible.

This comes directly from the wiki:

"After 7:84 Storm: The Chantry and nationalist forces of Rivain, unable to convert its people back to the worship of the Maker, try a purge by the sword, slaughtering countless unarmed people and burying them in mass graves."

The ****s did the same thing to the jews. And they called it genocide. How is this different?

[cjones91]

Silfren wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

I'm conducting a census.

About what?

You could die of old age waiting for him to get to the point.  Just sayin'.

It sure seems like it.....I'm still trying to figure out what Mister JB is arguing here.

[dragonflight288]

Jaison1986 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

People seem to love to overuse the word genocide here. There is such a thing as a series of horrible massacres that don't amount to genocide.

Frankly I think the only time I'd say the word was clearly unambiguously warranted was describing the fate of the Dwarven Empire during the First Blight.

Rivain is a place that strikes me as struggling with issues that come with a population that is divided along sectarian lines. Sometimes it erupts into violence and massacres other times the groups find a way to coexist peacefully in ways that might not happen in other places. In this way it reminds me a lot of Lebanon.

The massacre of Qunari in Rivain after the war ended was not perpetrated just by the Chantry, Rivaini nationalists were also responsible.

This comes directly from the wiki:

"After 7:84 Storm: The Chantry and nationalist forces of Rivain, unable to convert its people back to the worship of the Maker, try a purge by the sword, slaughtering countless unarmed people and burying them in mass graves."

The ****s did the same thing to the jews. And they called it genocide. How is this different?

I think the main difference is that people don't like their favored side being compared to the n-azi's despite how similar their actions are.

[TheButterflyEffect]

Also, Crusades. Fullstop.

Killing people just for being different = automatically blacklisted in my book.

[dragonflight288]

MisterJB wrote...



Nobody react to what I'm about to say. I think he might be using magic.

Okay....I'm not reacting....your point?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Silfren wrote...

I'll grant that the word is often used technically inaccurately, as it was in the post just now I think you are referring to.  But the point is that mass murder was committed.  The Chantry DID attempt to eradicate the Qun in Rivain via a purge by the sword, so it's certainly a good question to ask why the Rivaini people seem to be okay with it.

Because not all Rivaini are Qunari. And some are Andrastian. And some presumably non Andrastians helped with the massacres of Qunari Rivaini. It wasn't just a foreign power coming in to kill Rivaini citizens. The Chantry and Qunari are both part of Rivain itself.

[cjones91]

Jaison1986 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

People seem to love to overuse the word genocide here. There is such a thing as a series of horrible massacres that don't amount to genocide.

Frankly I think the only time I'd say the word was clearly unambiguously warranted was describing the fate of the Dwarven Empire during the First Blight.

Rivain is a place that strikes me as struggling with issues that come with a population that is divided along sectarian lines. Sometimes it erupts into violence and massacres other times the groups find a way to coexist peacefully in ways that might not happen in other places. In this way it reminds me a lot of Lebanon.

The massacre of Qunari in Rivain after the war ended was not perpetrated just by the Chantry, Rivaini nationalists were also responsible.

This comes directly from the wiki:

"After 7:84 Storm: The Chantry and nationalist forces of Rivain, unable to convert its people back to the worship of the Maker, try a purge by the sword, slaughtering countless unarmed people and burying them in mass graves."

The ****s did the same thing to the jews. And they called it genocide. How is this different?

Apparently killing hundred of people is not enough to count as genocide.

Modifié par cjones91, 01 novembre 2013 - 12:12 .

[Silfren]

Jaison1986 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

People seem to love to overuse the word genocide here. There is such a thing as a series of horrible massacres that don't amount to genocide.

Frankly I think the only time I'd say the word was clearly unambiguously warranted was describing the fate of the Dwarven Empire during the First Blight.

Rivain is a place that strikes me as struggling with issues that come with a population that is divided along sectarian lines. Sometimes it erupts into violence and massacres other times the groups find a way to coexist peacefully in ways that might not happen in other places. In this way it reminds me a lot of Lebanon.

The massacre of Qunari in Rivain after the war ended was not perpetrated just by the Chantry, Rivaini nationalists were also responsible.

This comes directly from the wiki:

"After 7:84 Storm: The Chantry and nationalist forces of Rivain, unable to convert its people back to the worship of the Maker, try a purge by the sword, slaughtering countless unarmed people and burying them in mass graves."

The ****s did the same thing to the jews. And they called it genocide. How is this different?

I'm guessing the quibble is over genocide's popular use as a synonym for "mass murder"  not being, strictly speaking, precisely accurate.  Properly used, the intention of the slaughter has to be for the total eradication of an ethnic, national, or racial group, in order for it to be genocide and not "just" mass murder.  At least, that's how I understand it. 

Don't get me wrong, I knew what your point was and didn't feel the need to quibble over it. 

ETA:  Just checked, and actually the definition includes religious groups as well as ethnic, national, and racial, so actually the application of genocide is completely accurate for what the Chantry did to the Rivaini Qunari.

Modifié par Silfren, 01 novembre 2013 - 12:17 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Jaison1986 wrote...

This comes directly from the wiki:

"After 7:84 Storm: The Chantry and nationalist forces of Rivain, unable to convert its people back to the worship of the Maker, try a purge by the sword, slaughtering countless unarmed people and burying them in mass graves."

The ****s did the same thing to the jews. And they called it genocide. How is this different?

cjones91 wrote...

Apparently killing hundred of people is not enough to count as genocide.

Well simply put, no. I don't think it does. The word genocide was first coined in response to the Holocaust. I absolutely don't believe the massacre of hundreds of people should have the same word used to describe it as the Holocaust.

The Third Riech is hardly the only group in history known to have committed atrocities. Not every example of a massacre is genocide.

Genocide is a word that I think should only be reserved when the magnitude of the slaughter becomes such that it needs a new word. Not every example of mass murder of countless innocents has the horrifyingly pervasive scale of the Holocaust.

To use real world examples:

These were massacres.

This was a genocide.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 01 novembre 2013 - 12:30 .

[cjones91]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Jaison1986 wrote...

This comes directly from the wiki:

"After 7:84 Storm: The Chantry and nationalist forces of Rivain, unable to convert its people back to the worship of the Maker, try a purge by the sword, slaughtering countless unarmed people and burying them in mass graves."

The ****s did the same thing to the jews. And they called it genocide. How is this different?

cjones91 wrote...

Apparently killing hundred of people is not enough to count as genocide.

Well simply put, no. I don't think it does. The word genocide was first coined in response to the Holocaust. I absolutely don't believe the massacre of hundreds of people should have the same word used to describe it as the Holocaust.

The Third Riech is hardly the only group in history known to have committed atrocities. Not every example of a massacre is genocide.

Genocide is a word that I think should only be reserved when the magnitude of the slaughter becomes such that it needs a new word. Not every example of mass murder of countless innocents has the horrifyingly pervasive scale of the Holocaust.

But the definition of genocide is the killing of groups of people based on religion,political,racial,genetic,or sexual backgrounds.Killing hundreds of people because they are different still fits under the technical definition.