1420 réponses à ce sujet

[The Hierophant]

Jaison1986 wrote...

Isn't this a little strange? Rivain aways seem to be the biggest victim of the Chantry cruelty. Not only with the annulement of the Circle. They also commited mass genocide against Rivain citizens when they refused to leave the Qun and worship the maker during the storm age. Leave the Rivains alone!

The genocide was thinly veiled Rivaini on Rivaini violence.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

With that definition killing 2 or 3 would still technically fit the term in that case.

[Silfren]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Jaison1986 wrote...

This comes directly from the wiki:

"After 7:84 Storm: The Chantry and nationalist forces of Rivain, unable to convert its people back to the worship of the Maker, try a purge by the sword, slaughtering countless unarmed people and burying them in mass graves."

The ****s did the same thing to the jews. And they called it genocide. How is this different?

cjones91 wrote...

Apparently killing hundred of people is not enough to count as genocide.

Well simply put, no. I don't think it does. The word genocide was first coined in response to the Holocaust. I absolutely don't believe the massacre of hundreds of people should have the same word used to describe it as the Holocaust.

The Third Riech is hardly the only group in history known to have committed atrocities. Not every example of a massacre is genocide.

Genocide is a word that I think should only be reserved when the magnitude of the slaughter becomes such that it needs a new word. Not every example of mass murder of countless innocents has the horrifyingly pervasive scale of the Holocaust.

Even in real world terms, the word genocide is by no means limited to the holocaust of WW2.  There are plenty of examples that don't approach the same scale, but which are indeed called by the same label.  Simply put, there are no numerical requirements, so far as I can tell, that much be reached before the term is applicable.  You may not like it, but that has no bearing on whether the term can be rightfully applied.

It's worth pointing out, on topic for a change, that the Chantry's use of genocide as a tool to eliminate rival religion is one of the reasons I consider it corrupt.

[Jaison1986]

I don't know. When I saw countless writen in the wiki, to my mind these kind of terms are usually for thousands, not just a few hundreds.

[Silfren]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

With that definition killing 2 or 3 would still technically fit the term in that case.

Regardless, that IS the definition; there is no specified minimum number of executions to reach before the term is accurate. 

I don't think any reasonable person would consider the murder of two or three people genocide, because any attempt to eradicate a group on grounds of religion, ethnicity, nationality, etc., always DOES involve the mass slaughter of a lot of people, but there's nothing to say that the deaths of "mere" hundreds would not somehow qualify. 

Modifié par Silfren, 01 novembre 2013 - 12:42 .

[Silfren]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Silfren wrote...

I'll grant that the word is often used technically inaccurately, as it was in the post just now I think you are referring to.  But the point is that mass murder was committed.  The Chantry DID attempt to eradicate the Qun in Rivain via a purge by the sword, so it's certainly a good question to ask why the Rivaini people seem to be okay with it.

Because not all Rivaini are Qunari. And some are Andrastian. And some presumably non Andrastians helped with the massacres of Qunari Rivaini. It wasn't just a foreign power coming in to kill Rivaini citizens. The Chantry and Qunari are both part of Rivain itself.

Granted, it was Rivaini nationals, too, who may have either been Chantry loyalists or simply anti-Qun.  But I'd kind of expect at least a few Rivaini people to take exception to the slaughter, regardless of their personal feelings toward the Qun.  Watching the Chantry waltz in and "purge by the sword" would scare the ****** out of anyone, and certainly it would send a message as to how the Chantry reacts to modes of thought it doesn't like.  It could well leave a bad taste in certain people's mouths even if they were Chantryists to begin with.

[Steelcan]

That would depend entirely on the perception of the qunari living in Rivain. If they were percieved as a threat or something similar the attack might have been welcomed.

[dragonflight288]

Steelcan wrote...

That would depend entirely on the perception of the qunari living in Rivain. If they were percieved as a threat or something similar the attack might have been welcomed.

Yeah, but there isn't any evidence that suggests that the Qunari who remained behind were a threat. Or if there is, I haven't seen it.

[Steelcan]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

That would depend entirely on the perception of the qunari living in Rivain. If they were percieved as a threat or something similar the attack might have been welcomed.

Yeah, but there isn't any evidence that suggests that the Qunari who remained behind were a threat. Or if there is, I haven't seen it.

The qunari are percieved as a threat across Thedas, whether they are really dangerous to the average person is another matter

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Silfren wrote...
Granted, it was Rivaini nationals, too, who may have either been Chantry loyalists or simply anti-Qun.  But I'd kind of expect at least a few Rivaini people to take exception to the slaughter, regardless of their personal feelings toward the Qun.  Watching the Chantry waltz in and "purge by the sword" would scare the ****** out of anyone, and certainly it would send a message as to how the Chantry reacts to modes of thought it doesn't like.  It could well leave a bad taste in certain people's mouths even if they were Chantryists to begin with.

They didn't just waltz in and purge infidels by the sword. It was factions within Rivain commiting violence on another one, likely for local reasons. It wasn't just the Chantry's massacre if other Rivain also paritcipated. The Chantry's not an alien presence that intruded on the country from outside.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 01 novembre 2013 - 01:05 .

[Silfren]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Granted, it was Rivaini nationals, too, who may have either been Chantry loyalists or simply anti-Qun.  But I'd kind of expect at least a few Rivaini people to take exception to the slaughter, regardless of their personal feelings toward the Qun.  Watching the Chantry waltz in and "purge by the sword" would scare the ****** out of anyone, and certainly it would send a message as to how the Chantry reacts to modes of thought it doesn't like.  It could well leave a bad taste in certain people's mouths even if they were Chantryists to begin with.

They didn't just waltz in and purge infidels by the sword. It was factions within Rivain commiting violence on eachother, likely for local reasons. It wasn't just the Chantry's massacre if other Rivain also paritcipated. The Chantry's not an alien presence that intruded on the country from outside.

What exactly are you arguing against here?  The Chantry tried to eradicate the Qun's presence in Rivain with a purge by the sword, and they had help from Rivaini nationals in doing it.  It wasn't just Rivaini-on-Rivaini violence.

http://dragonage.wik...omerryn_Accords

Modifié par Silfren, 01 novembre 2013 - 01:15 .

[The Hierophant]

Silfren wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Silfren wrote...

I'll grant that the word is often used technically inaccurately, as it was in the post just now I think you are referring to.  But the point is that mass murder was committed.  The Chantry DID attempt to eradicate the Qun in Rivain via a purge by the sword, so it's certainly a good question to ask why the Rivaini people seem to be okay with it.

Because not all Rivaini are Qunari. And some are Andrastian. And some presumably non Andrastians helped with the massacres of Qunari Rivaini. It wasn't just a foreign power coming in to kill Rivaini citizens. The Chantry and Qunari are both part of Rivain itself.

Granted, it was Rivaini nationals, too, who may have either been Chantry loyalists or simply anti-Qun.  But I'd kind of expect at least a few Rivaini people to take exception to the slaughter, regardless of their personal feelings toward the Qun.  Watching the Chantry waltz in and "purge by the sword" would scare the ****** out of anyone, and certainly it would send a message as to how the Chantry reacts to modes of thought it doesn't like.  It could well leave a bad taste in certain people's mouths even if they were Chantryists to begin with.

I think the true intent behind the genocide was the Qunari converts unwillingness to accept local tradition, and customs rather than Chantry beliefs. The Rivaini Chantry's partnership with the nationalists seems suspicious as the Chantry's beliefs conflicts with local customs. The Rivaini branch being so fervent in their devotion to spreading the CoL that they killed the Qunari is also suspicious when you consider Genitivi's disbelief at the religion's lack of influence in Rivain during his visit.

Modifié par The Hierophant, 01 novembre 2013 - 04:41 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Silfren wrote...

What exactly are you arguing against here?  The Chantry tried to eradicate the Qun's presence in Rivain with a purge by the sword, and they had help from Rivaini nationals in doing it.  It wasn't just Rivaini-on-Rivaini violence.

http://dragonage.wik...omerryn_Accords

It was committed by "Rivain Chantry and nationalist forces" according to the codex on the Llomerryn Accord. In both cases, they are factions from Rivain.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 01 novembre 2013 - 01:23 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

wcholcombe wrote...
Again, not saying the Chantry doesn't have problems, just curious where this attitude of the Chantry being the most corrupt thing in Thedas comes from?

As a principle rule I'm just distrustful of organized religion in general.

[addiction21]

Silfren wrote...


What exactly are you arguing against here?  The Chantry tried to eradicate the Qun's presence in Rivain with a purge by the sword, and they had help from Rivaini nationals in doing it.  It wasn't just Rivaini-on-Rivaini violence.

http://dragonage.wik...omerryn_Accords

I see that it explicitly states "the Rivian Chantry" not "The Chantry" not "the Divine" but "Rivian with Rivian nationalists"

[TEWR]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

With that definition killing 2 or 3 would still technically fit the term in that case.

That'd really just be serial killing. I'd say that while all genocide is serial killing, not all serial killing is genocide.

[Silfren]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

With that definition killing 2 or 3 would still technically fit the term in that case.

That'd really just be serial killing. I'd say that while all genocide is serial killing, not all serial killing is genocide.

Well.  Genocide serial-killing style (one at a time, all neat and methodical and single-file like) would take a while.  It isn't very efficient.

Modifié par Silfren, 01 novembre 2013 - 06:03 .

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Because they are like any other religious ideology. Hence they are and will always be corrupt. This is just the reality of life.

Any and all religion preys on the most fundamental emotions / feelings / sensation of humanity.

FEAR

Specifically fear of three main things.

Fear of death. Fear of the unknown. Fear of each other.

Fear of death 

-In the real world it goes like this :- If you do not believe in our deity/deities, their book and their rules you are going to be in hell/ in some form of damnation / be reborn as something lesser ,etc. As such you must submit to our teachings and our deity.
-In Thedas it goes like this :- If you do not believe in the Maker, when you die you will not go to be by his side and you will wander the Void for eternity. As such you must submit to our Chantry teachings and be faithful to the maker.

Fear of the unknown

-In the real world :- Just look at a religion's viewpoint of things they never understand. Like how the Church viewed astronomy up until very recently, how they view evolution, stem cell research, etc
-In Thedas:- Since we do not understand magic and the things related to it like the Veil, demons, spirits, let us just say these are all bad & evil and anyone who possess abilities to manipulate them is by default bad. Instead of actually trying to understand why magic is there, why is there a Veil, why are there creatures like demons & spirits, let us just defer to some verses that say they are all bad. Let us also manipulate the distribution of precious resource (lyrium) instead of understanding it and use it to have a constant supply to addicted enforcers.....

Fear of each other

-In the real world :- Just look at how the religious treat other religious people throughout history. My deity is better than yours. My book is better than yours...The Crusades, the Inquisition..to name a few...
-In Thedas:- Damn those elves and Qunari. They do not believe like we do they are heathens ! Let us demean them, portray them in false light, carry out Exalted Marches against them...

Ah, I could go on but these are the big three on why the Chantry is so corrupt. This is why any religion is corrupt.

Cheers.

To a nonreligious like me, religion, both real and fictitious one...are funny and pathetic at the same time. At first its fun to watch bunch of people being foolish and being mean for an absentee deity / father figure..At first it is ironic and fun..but then it gets boring and irritating...

I guess George Carlin summarized it the best :- "Religion has convinced people that there’s an invisible man…living in
the sky, who watches everything you do every minute of every day. And
the invisible man has a list of ten specific things he doesn’t want you
to do. And if you do any of these things, he will send you to a special
place, of burning and fire and smoke and torture and anguish for you to
live forever, and suffer and burn and scream until the end of time. But he loves you. He loves you and he needs money! "

For Thedas :- "The Chantry has convinced people that there is an invisible Maker...living in the sky, who watches everything you do every minute of every day. And
the invisible Maker has a few things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these things, you will not be welcome to sit by him after you die. But he loves you. He loves you and he needs tithes!"

Modifié par The Sin, 01 novembre 2013 - 06:29 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

What happened in rivain during the purging of the Qunari converts was certainly genocide. But people on BSN is all too happy to use that big buzz word to describe pretty much any and all mass killing. For instance a lot of people are very intent on trying to hamfist the connotation of genocide to the Right of Annulment, even though it is a complete inaccuracy in that case. Basically people are throwing the word around way too often, and doesn't even really understand what the word means.

[In Exile]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

What happened in rivain during the purging of the Qunari converts was certainly genocide. But people on BSN is all too happy to use that big buzz word to describe pretty much any and all mass killing. For instance a lot of people are very intent on trying to hamfist the connotation of genocide to the Right of Annulment, even though it is a complete inaccuracy in that case. Basically people are throwing the word around way too often, and doesn't even really understand what the word means.

No, it isn't. It fits the legal definition. In fact, the Circles as a whole fit the legal definition. There's a checklist, and scale isn't a precondition to genocide. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

"Intent to destroy" is the key component of any genocide. Without it, it becomes "just" mass killings or a purge. Still horrible actions.

Now "intent to destroy" can have several interpretations. But generally during an Annulment, the intentions of the Templars are not to destroy all mages, for the sake of them being mages. But rather to contain a volatile and dangerous situation. Thus the word "purge" is more fitting to an Annulment. Note though that a purge can also be genocide.