1420 réponses à ce sujet

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I never said it would be easy, but I'm not going to allow for killing innocents out of expedience.

Be ready to lose the non-innocents and less-innocents charged with protecting them.

Mages don't choose their powers; templars do choose their role. And I see, if they're to exist at all, their primary role to be protecting mages from demons, not killing mages to preempt demonic risk.

The high road's very pretty, but it makes you an easier target. Be ready to lose more Templars (and possibly the responding mages) if you do this.

[Steelcan]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I never said it would be easy, but I'm not going to allow for killing innocents out of expedience.

Be ready to lose the non-innocents and less-innocents charged with protecting them.

Mages don't choose their powers; templars do choose their role. And I see, if they're to exist at all, their primary role to be protecting mages from demons, not killing mages to preempt demonic risk.

The high road's very pretty, but it makes you an easier target. Be ready to lose more Templars (and possibly the responding mages) if you do this.

I'd be more worried about the mages, if they are possesed its over, either the templars get them immediately or someone does later, its only a question of how many people they kill first.

Modifié par Steelcan, 22 octobre 2013 - 04:45 .

[Xilizhra]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I never said it would be easy, but I'm not going to allow for killing innocents out of expedience.

Be ready to lose the non-innocents and less-innocents charged with protecting them.

Mages don't choose their powers; templars do choose their role. And I see, if they're to exist at all, their primary role to be protecting mages from demons, not killing mages to preempt demonic risk.

The high road's very pretty, but it makes you an easier target. Be ready to lose more Templars (and possibly the responding mages) if you do this.

When the alternative is sanctioned genocide, I'll take my chances.

It's even better to be on the alert for warning signs of such things before they actually happen... assuming that there are that many there among the politically-motivated Annulments (the original one, Kirkwall and Darismuid, for instance).

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Xilizhra wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I never said it would be easy, but I'm not going to allow for killing innocents out of expedience.

Be ready to lose the non-innocents and less-innocents charged with protecting them.

Mages don't choose their powers; templars do choose their role. And I see, if they're to exist at all, their primary role to be protecting mages from demons, not killing mages to preempt demonic risk.

The high road's very pretty, but it makes you an easier target. Be ready to lose more Templars (and possibly the responding mages) if you do this.

When the alternative is sanctioned genocide, I'll take my chances.

It's even better to be on the alert for warning signs of such things before they actually happen... assuming that there are that many there among the politically-motivated Annulments (the original one, Kirkwall and Darismuid, for instance).

The original Annulment, if I remember correctly, was not entirely political in motivation. Yes, there was some subversive stuff going on, but the Templars dealt with that in their routine manner. It was when the mages started to turn to blood magic, and an abomination got loose and went on a rampage outside the Circle, that Annulment was established as an option. The other two, I have less material to defend with. Those were political.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

leaguer of one wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I think Anders can do it also

Anders does the force push, not the blood scan.

From the wiki


"If Merrill or Anders are present when Hawke rescues Keran, Hawke can ask them to verify if Keran is possessed. Both of them will state that he is safe"

Again , Anders just shoots magic at the guy. He checked for a reaction, Merrill actually sensed if he was a abonbination not.

Like someone else said, I'll take the actual abominations word for it.  merrill has some rose tinted glasses when it comes to this.  All the demon has to do is call itself a spirit and Merrill would fight to the death to defend it.

So to have the benifit  of sensing abombination you have to be one....That's like saying  to have the benifit  of  sensing zombies you have to be a zombie...

Anders, since he IS possesed, should know what it takes to determine if someone is possessed or make a spirit manifest in a host.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 22 octobre 2013 - 04:54 .

[leaguer of one]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I think Anders can do it also

Anders does the force push, not the blood scan.

From the wiki


"If Merrill or Anders are present when Hawke rescues Keran, Hawke can ask them to verify if Keran is possessed. Both of them will state that he is safe"

Again , Anders just shoots magic at the guy. He checked for a reaction, Merrill actually sensed if he was a abonbination not.

Like someone else said, I'll take the actual abominations word for it.  merrill has some rose tinted glasses when it comes to this.  All the demon has to do is call itself a spirit and Merrill would fight to the death to defend it.

So to have the benifit  of sensing abombination you have to be one....That's like saying  to have the benifit  of  sensing zombies you have to be a zombie...

Anders, since he IS possesed, should know what it takes to determine if someone is possessed or make a spirit manifest in a host.

And that has nothing to do with being an abombination. That's my point.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Of course it does. It means he has experience and first hand knowledge of possession because of Justice.

[leaguer of one]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Of course it does. It means he has experience and first hand knowledge of possession because of Justice.

It's more of a fact that he knows how to find abombinations because the studies and books mages have about them in the circle then him being an abombination. His test was more trail and error then sensing.

[Dabrikishaw]

Spaghetti_Ninja wrote...

A bunch of preachy, matriarchal zealots who would like nothing better than to seriously limit the freedom of one out of three player classes. Gee I wonder why people have problems with them. They are a fantasy version of the medieval Catholic church, complete with their idiot Pope-figure.

[Fredward]

Can I just chuck the "corrupt" label and call it evil instead? An organization that has built it's power on enslaving people for the way they were born, building a private army of addicts and with an expansionist doctrine. Who the **** cares if it's corrupt when its very existence is wrong?

[leaguer of one]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Can I just chuck the "corrupt" label and call it evil instead? An organization that has built it's power on enslaving people for the way they were born, building a private army of addicts and with an expansionist doctrine. Who the **** cares if it's corrupt when its very existence is wrong?

Maybe because there people in it that actually want to do good?

[Dayze]

Could Mages be more capable of knowing if someone's an abomination do to a greater connection to the fade?

Something like Wardens and Darkspawn?

As for the Chantry being corrupt; well.....there are definitely bad people in it, aspects of their religion I suppose are domineering....they do help with the oppression of the elves though don't they and racism does seem to have infiltrated it.

So maybe slightly corrupt but on a whole yeah its fairly moderate considering the scenario it exists under.

[Dayze]

leaguer of one wrote...

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Can I just chuck the "corrupt" label and call it evil instead? An organization that has built it's power on enslaving people for the way they were born, building a private army of addicts and with an expansionist doctrine. Who the **** cares if it's corrupt when its very existence is wrong?

Maybe because there people in it that actually want to do good?

Yeah but doesn't this just fall under the same argument as the corrupt one; just because some people in it are good doesn't mean the organization as a whole is a good one.

Not saying it is evil but just pointing out that just because "some people" within it might want to do good; doesn't make it as a whole good.

[Fredward]

leaguer of one wrote...Maybe because there people in it that actually want to do good?

I'm sure some of Hitler's bureaucrats/soldiers/apathetic-village-folk wanted to do good too. Didn't stop ****sm from being ****ed up.

[leaguer of one]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...Maybe because there people in it that actually want to do good?

I'm sure some of Hitler's bureaucrats/soldiers/apathetic-village-folk wanted to do good too. Didn't stop ****sm from being ****ed up.

Please don't use that card. It's nothing like that.   (This coming from a pro-circle/mage guy.)

It's more like the catholic during the time of the cursades.

[Gold Dragon]

A freindly reminder to keep real world religion out of this, lest we summon the ban-hammer....


As for the Chantry being corrupt, well....  Everything is falling apart.  If the Chantry hadn't been so involved in personal gain for a few individuals, things wouldn't have gotten so far out of hand.  And seen the warning signs in time to actually stop it.....

[Lotion Soronarr]

Why do peoepl think the chantry is corrupt?

1) It is a religion
2) it is organized
3) it has poeple in it (and you don't like many of them).

That is more than enough for some people.

leaguer of one wrote...
It's more of a fact that he knows how to find abombinations because the studies and books mages have about them in the circle then him being an abombination. His test was more trail and error then sensing.

Nope. The whole point of abominations is that there is no method of detecting them. Gregoir sez as much. If there was a simple way to determine if someone is an abomination or not, dont' you think tempalrs would know of it? There would be no need for a RoA.

[Cainhurst Crow]

cjones91 wrote...

Because the Chantry is either ignorant about the abuses going in the Circles or they turn a blind eye to it.Not to mention they have been involved in the destruction of a entire culture(whether you think it was right or not the elves did no deserve to have their entire culture ripped from them) and a bunch of other crap.

If I get the chance I'm taking them down a peg by removing the Chantry's political power and defanging them once and for all.

Why doesn't anyone ever care about tevinter's right for cultural perservation. All those territories with rich tevinter conquered cultures destroyed because of some stupid woman and her "let my people go" complex.

She should have let those slave stay slaves and not trampled all over their already established culture!

[Cainhurst Crow]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

The Chantry never "conquered" Thedas. Andraste's barbarian horde defeated the Imperium in southern Thedas and after her death, her message spread to all nations. The Chantry was formed long after Andraste's Exalted March and spread mostly through peaceful methods.

She destroyed those slave cultures with her freedom-centric bias!

[Lotion Soronarr]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

Can I just chuck the "corrupt" label and call it evil instead? An organization that has built it's power on enslaving people for the way they were born, building a private army of addicts and with an expansionist doctrine. Who the **** cares if it's corrupt when its very existence is wrong?

Why would it's existence be wrong?
Segregating dangerous poepel (not enslaving) is not "wrong". TheDas isn't the Real World, so black-and-white morality generalizations hold no validity whatsoever.

Having a private army is not wrong. Lyrium addiction is not something the Cahntry forces or something it can avoid. It's the inherent property of lyrium and lyrium is NEEDED to have templars. Try again.

Expansionist doctrine? It wants to spread the truth, like pretty much everyone in the world. It's not evil. That you disagree with their truth is irrelevant.


Try again.

It's more like the catholic during the time of the cursades.

The crusades were fully justified, given that they were a response to continued agression. Next.

[SirGladiator]

I think the Chantry is pretty obviously a 'good' group in the game, obviously as with any organization there could be bad people in it (like Petrice, and once she got found out it was over for her) but the vast, vast majority are good people. The Templars and the Mages folks can argue about all day, obviously there's plenty of good and bad in each group, but the Chantry is filled almost entirely with good people doing good things. I think that's been made pretty obvious over the course of the two games.

[Fredward]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Why would it's existence be wrong?
Segregating dangerous poepel (not enslaving) is not "wrong". TheDas isn't the Real World, so black-and-white morality generalizations hold no validity whatsoever.

Having a private army is not wrong. Lyrium addiction is not something the Cahntry forces or something it can avoid. It's the inherent property of lyrium and lyrium is NEEDED to have templars. Try again.

Expansionist doctrine? It wants to spread the truth, like pretty much everyone in the world. It's not evil. That you disagree with their truth is irrelevant.


Try again.

1. It is slavery. Mages are forced into it, it's not a choice. They work for the Chantry with no meaningful recompense (and don't even try and use the "THEY GET A PLACE TO LIVE AND FOOD!" line, so does my ****ing dog). They don't get to leave. They're occasionally used in war. The organization that enslaves them has built their power on that slavery, take it away and their power crumbles. Try again.

Also just as an aside where in the real world does black and white moral generalization hold any validity?

2. The wiki says all templars are addicted to lyrium. The only one we've seen whose had templar training and wasn't addicted was Alistair, also the only one whose implied that taking lyrium is optional. I think it's kinda important to note he was never actually a templar.

But you seem to missing the broader picture here. The Chantry enslaves mages. Mages need keepers. The fact that mages are imprisoned thus justifies the existence of templars, the "necessity" of templars thus justifies the use of lyrium and the Chantry's chokehold on the resource. The Chantry's economic and military power and by extension its political power rests on the back of mages. An awful lot of benefits for an organization that claims to strictly be a protecting force, no? Why sell enchanted weapons and armour? Why use mages in wars when they're so slobberingly dangerous? Why force them to go through the Harrowing when they're going to spend the rest of their lives in a prison anyway?

Needed my ass. The Chantry's only need is enriching itself and maintaing its power.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
Expansionist doctrine? It wants to spread the truth

3. So good to see we agree on something.

[Shadow Fox]

Yup was waiting for someone to bring up ****s.

[Fredward]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...
Yup was waiting for someone to bring up ****s.

-sigh- The **** analogy wasn't meant as me comparing the two. Just that you can have good individuals in a bad organization. Also why is the word **** censored? It's ridiculous.

[Ieldra]

Here's my answer to the OP's question:

Because it is. It is actually no more or less "corrupt" than any other organization concerned with political power, and like other organizations it uses what it deems necessary to ensure its continued power and sovereignity of interpretation of magic and magical events, but as a religious organization people hold it to higher standards.

I think what people don't like is the hypocrisy. If the Grey Wardens use questionable means to achieve their goals, you may or may not like it, but at least they were always honest about it. Meanwhile, the Chantry presents itself as the force for good while using the same means others do.

I don't really blame them for what they do. They do what they consider necessary, and no organization concerned with power can retain clean hands. They just shouldn't act surprised if I do the same in the name of my preferred faction, and if they act self-righteously horrified, that's the moment to point to the enslavement of mages and the templars' lyrium addiction and the monopoly on the lyrium trade.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 22 octobre 2013 - 09:03 .