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[MisanthropePrime]

A discussion in another on the Dragon Age subreddit started me off on a tangent: does the world need the Grey Wardens as an institution?

Think about the Grey Wardens' job: we think of them as heroes, as soldiers, but really, their job is disaster control, and they have an absolute monopoly on responding to that disaster.

Imagine a world in which one and only one organization was allowed to respond to areas hit by hurricanes, earthquakes, or something more infrequent and devastating like volcanic eruptions. Imagine if something happened to them- something like Ostagar, but in the real world. The Warden and Alistair pulled a million-to-one chance at defeating the Archdemon in Denerim, but do you think the rest of the world should gamble with the lives of their citizens in such a manner?

The Grey Wardens also harbor maleficarum like Avernus and Anders, men who would not have been able to do their horrific deeds had they not been protected by the wardens and given their resources. Having so few men defending the world from a nigh-apocalyptic threat leaves such a wide avenue for abuse it's almost comical.

Let's also remember the right of conscription, a rather terrible prospect. As far as I know, no nations in Thedas have compulsory military service, but the Wardens can waltz in, supersede local authority, pardon convicted murderers and blood mages, and force them to join their ranks. The United States has gone to war for less.

And let's remember that for all the heroes like Duncan, the PC and Riordan, the bulk of the Wardens at Weisshaupt are not heroes, but politicians. Their control of the Anderfels makes them a military dictatorship, and Mistress Woolsey in Awakening does not hide the fact that the First Warden is jockeying for more power abroad, as well. This tendency towards Anders Grey Wardens to put politics over lifesaving is just another reason why the Wardens should be abolished: the heroic individuals were often able to best serve the people from the geographic area they were most familiar with, after all.

If the anti-blight techniques used by the Wardens were instead turned over to the civilian governments of Thedas and in turn incorporated into specialized blight-fighting military units, the Wardens would be rendered obsolete. And, obviously, the wardens in Weisshaupt know this, which is why they operate with such secrecy. The Joining ritual, as I once argued, is entirely inefficient (why maintain a force of tainted soldiers whose life expectancy is shortened by decades, when you could simply rapidly administer the joining when a blight actually occurs? You'd have the exact same mortality rate but at the very least prevent unnecessary loss of life in peacetime), but it's maintained because the Wardens operate extremely similarly to a cult: drugging their initiates, preventing them from contacting their families, controlling their sex lives, forcing them to uproot and live with other cultists... and remember that governments allow the Wardens to basically kidnap whoever they want and force them into this lifestyle.

Now, I understand that at the time the Wardens were created, there was only really one nation-state (Tevinter) and it was doing poorly. There was barely any national government, and so its drastic measures (and the entitlements given to them) made sense at the time. But Thedosian society has evolved in leaps and bounds since then, and almost every nation has a well trained and equipped fighting force of their own. Who's to say a few Ash Warriors or Chevaliers can't kick back an archdemon blood cocktail and do the Warden's job without the secrecy and centralization?

We have a rosy outlook on the Wardens because we played one in Origins, and the ones we saw in Origins are implied to be very different from the bulk of the organization. And even the Warden Commander of Ferelden frequently bucked protocol, in a way showing how inefficient the Wardens as an organization truly are.


TLDR version: The Wardens as an organization are terribly inefficient when it comes to their duty. The bulk of the organization is only concerned with self perpetuation and strengthening its power base. It engages in deplorable practices that ruin lives and place society at risk. National governments and militaries, with access to the Wardens' proprietary technology and training, could do their job far more efficiently with fewer rights violations.

[MisanthropePrime]

MasterScribe wrote...

This is partially why I think the Grey Wardens will be the main antagonists of either DAI or a future game.

I'm pretty sure the Inquisitor has the option of going to war with the Wardens (the Fires Above cinematic shows Cassandra besieging a Warden keep, and knowing what we know about the keep and faction mechanics in DA:I it's safe to assume she's doing so on the Inquisitor's behalf), and, in fact, discussion of that possibility is what prompted
this topic, as someone insisted that there was no reason for anyone to want to fight the Wardens.

[wright1978]

MisanthropePrime wrote...

 The Joining ritual, as I once argued, is entirely inefficient (why maintain a force of tainted soldiers whose life expectancy is shortened by decades, when you could simply rapidly administer the joining when a blight actually occurs? You'd have the exact same mortality rate but at the very least prevent unnecessary loss of life in peacetime), but it's maintained because the Wardens operate extremely similarly to a cult: drugging their initiates, preventing them from contacting their families, controlling their sex lives, forcing them to uproot and live with other cultists... and remember that governments allow the Wardens to basically kidnap whoever they want and force them into this lifestyle.

I agree regarding the joining ritual's inefficiency & their rather cavalier attitude to this. Maybe their mages have been studying ways to avoid people dying during & extending their lives it but it doesn't come across that way. It seems like it's treated as a badge of honour to survive that gauntlet. However given the wardens venture into the deep roads & to combat the darkspawn, the taint does seem rather essential.

[wcholcombe]

I am pretty sure it is a former warden keep. The one shown in the PAX video that is no longer occupied by the wardens.

Seriously an anti Warden thread.....what is this board coming to.

[Wulfram]

Well, the argument for keeping the Wardens is that if you leave things to the various nations then they'll focus on fighting each other as much as the Blight. And indeed that the governments are liable to forget about the darkspawn between blights.

Their right of conscription only exists with the consent of the relevant governments. And I'm not sure what you're referring to with the bit about their sex lives.

But I agree that the level of secrecy seems excessive, and that carrying out the joining on healthy people in times of peace seems unnecessary - you could save it for people who've already caught the taint. Though there might also be an argument for using it on people who'd otherwise have suffered execution by their government - without that finality, the governments would likely be unwilling to let them go.

[Angrywolves]

No the Grey Warden won't be an antagonist .
I guess that guess, I won't call it a theory, came from the trailer.
shrugs.
Disband the wardens ?
No
That's almost heresy to say that.

[Br3admax]

Wulfram wrote...

Well, the argument for keeping the Wardens is that if you leave things to the various nations then they'll focus on fighting each other as much as the Blight. And indeed that the governments are liable to forget about the darkspawn between blights.

Their right of conscription only exists with the consent of the relevant governments. And I'm not sure what you're referring to with the bit about their sex lives.

But I agree that the level of secrecy seems excessive, and that carrying out the joining on healthy people in times of peace seems unnecessary - you could save it for people who've already caught the taint. Though there might also be an argument for using it on people who'd otherwise have suffered execution by their government - without that finality, the governments would likely be unwilling to let them go.

The Grey Wardens still do things during the time in between Blights. They need the Taint to combat the darkspawn. 

[Sir DeLoria]

So what happens when there's another Blight and no Wardens to fight the Archdemon?

[Star fury]

You shouldn't read reddit then. Do you and your buddies from reddit know that there is always a Blight with the darkspawn next door?

National governments and militaries, with access to the Wardens'
proprietary technology and training, could do their job far more
efficiently with fewer rights violations.

LMAO. It is not a XXI century in Thedas. There are no "National governments" and militaries in Thedas, there is a feudalism there. FEUDALISM. There are kingdoms and monarch is the country with feudal levies.

Modifié par Star fury, 22 octobre 2013 - 09:10 .

[Chaos Hammer]

Read A Song of Ice and Flames .... the nights watch is the wardens see what happens when they are politically intwined

[MisanthropePrime]

Wulfram wrote...

Well, the argument for keeping the Wardens is that if you leave things to the various nations then they'll focus on fighting each other as much as the Blight. And indeed that the governments are liable to forget about the darkspawn between blights.

But as it stands the Wardens already rely on these governments to combat the blights, so the governments know when to prioritize fighting the blight. The Wardens don't have a large enough force to fight the blight on their own, anyway.

Their right of conscription only exists with the consent of the relevant governments. And I'm not sure what you're referring to with the bit about their sex lives.

Wrynn implies that Wardens aren't supposed to get any ****** (and I assume dingus, I've never played a female or gay male character) when she chastises you for breaking off a piece of someone's ass.

But I agree that the level of secrecy seems excessive, and that carrying out the joining on healthy people in times of peace seems unnecessary - you could save it for people who've already caught the taint. Though there might also be an argument for using it on people who'd otherwise have suffered execution by their government - without that finality, the governments would likely be unwilling to let them go.

I don't think it's the Wardens' right to pardon people sentenced to execution from their governments. While not all the governments have just legal systems, the wardens are theoretically dedicated to neutrality, so things like Duncan intervening in the city elf, mage and dwarf noble origins seems like they're already interfering in domestic affairs.

[Trikormadenadon]

Wulfram wrote...

Well, the argument for keeping the Wardens is that if you leave things to the various nations then they'll focus on fighting each other as much as the Blight. And indeed that the governments are liable to forget about the darkspawn between blights.

Their right of conscription only exists with the consent of the relevant governments. And I'm not sure what you're referring to with the bit about their sex lives.

But I agree that the level of secrecy seems excessive, and that carrying out the joining on healthy people in times of peace seems unnecessary - you could save it for people who've already caught the taint. Though there might also be an argument for using it on people who'd otherwise have suffered execution by their government - without that finality, the governments would likely be unwilling to let them go.

The reason they continue to do the joining ritual during non blight times is because during those times they go into the Deep Roads to fight the darkspawn. The Wardens are NEVER at a state of peace.

[wcholcombe]

Song of Ice and Fire you mean. Yeah there is a lot of similarities.

And actually the Wardens basically run the Anderfells because they are the only real power there. The king is only interested in what goes on within his walls and does nothing for the populace at large. Thus the wardens have gained power, by taking care of the people in place of the king. However, the 1st Warden is the only one that really has his eye on politics. I doubt there are many politicians in the Grey Wardens.

[Beerfish]

I don't think they can be disbanded but their numbers should be greatly reduced. You only need enough wardens to make a killing blow. The number of quality people and fighters that have died needlessly due to their stupid initiation makes it not worth the trouble.

[MisanthropePrime]

Necanor wrote...

So what happens when there's another Blight and no Wardens to fight the Archdemon?

The individual national governments of Thedas administer the joining ritual to their soldiers and send them to kill some 'spawn? The exact same thing the Wardens do, just without all the cultish woo-woo.

Star fury wrote...

LMAO. It is not a XXI century in Thedas.

Bioware goes on and on about how big they are on "social justice", how they have all genders and sexual orientations treated well. Furthermore, a significant portion of the Ferelden national identity is based on the belief that there exists a corpus of inalienable civil rights afforded to Ferelden citizens (if not the citizens of other nations) so it's not as if the concept is without precedent.

[wcholcombe]

MisanthropePrime wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Well, the argument for keeping the Wardens is that if you leave things to the various nations then they'll focus on fighting each other as much as the Blight. And indeed that the governments are liable to forget about the darkspawn between blights.

But as it stands the Wardens already rely on these governments to combat the blights, so the governments know when to prioritize fighting the blight. The Wardens don't have a large enough force to fight the blight on their own, anyway.

Their right of conscription only exists with the consent of the relevant governments. And I'm not sure what you're referring to with the bit about their sex lives.

Wrynn implies that Wardens aren't supposed to get any ****** (and I assume dingus, I've never played a female or gay male character) when she chastises you for breaking off a piece of someone's ass.

But I agree that the level of secrecy seems excessive, and that carrying out the joining on healthy people in times of peace seems unnecessary - you could save it for people who've already caught the taint. Though there might also be an argument for using it on people who'd otherwise have suffered execution by their government - without that finality, the governments would likely be unwilling to let them go.

I don't think it's the Wardens' right to pardon people sentenced to execution from their governments. While not all the governments have just legal systems, the wardens are theoretically dedicated to neutrality, so things like Duncan intervening in the city elf, mage and dwarf noble origins seems like they're already interfering in domestic affairs.

In "The Calling" it is repeatedly made very obvious that Wardens take no vow of chastity.  Heck some wardens get married to other wardens. 

Also,  as is shown in the Calling, the wardens aren't really pardoning anyone.  If they survive the calling they spend the rest of their life fighting darkspawn and eventually succumbing to an agonizing and slow death in the deep roads.

[MisanthropePrime]

Trikormadenadon wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Well,
the argument for keeping the Wardens is that if you leave things to the
various nations then they'll focus on fighting each other as much as
the Blight. And indeed that the governments are liable to forget about
the darkspawn between blights.

Their right of conscription only
exists with the consent of the relevant governments. And I'm not sure
what you're referring to with the bit about their sex lives.

But I
agree that the level of secrecy seems excessive, and that carrying out
the joining on healthy people in times of peace seems unnecessary - you
could save it for people who've already caught the taint. Though there
might also be an argument for using it on people who'd otherwise have
suffered execution by their government - without that finality, the
governments would likely be unwilling to let them go.

The
reason they continue to do the joining ritual during non blight times
is because during those times they go into the Deep Roads to fight the
darkspawn. The Wardens are NEVER at a state of peace.

Do we know if these deep roads expeditions do anything? It seems like
they're just trying to justify their existence when there's no
archdemon. And I don't see why national governments can't do the same
thing- hell, Orzammar already does it.

wcholcombe wrote...

Song of Ice and Fire you mean. Yeah there is a lot of similarities.

And actually the Wardens basically run the Anderfells because they are the only real power there. The king is only interested in what goes on within his walls and does nothing for the populace at large. Thus the wardens have gained power, by taking care of the people in place of the king. However, the 1st Warden is the only one that really has his eye on politics. I doubt there are many politicians in the Grey Wardens.

Mistress Woolsey says "hi". Also the Warden-Commander and Alistair.

Modifié par MisanthropePrime, 22 octobre 2013 - 09:13 .

[Trikormadenadon]

MisanthropePrime wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Well, the argument for keeping the Wardens is that if you leave things to the various nations then they'll focus on fighting each other as much as the Blight. And indeed that the governments are liable to forget about the darkspawn between blights.

But as it stands the Wardens already rely on these governments to combat the blights, so the governments know when to prioritize fighting the blight. The Wardens don't have a large enough force to fight the blight on their own, anyway.

Their right of conscription only exists with the consent of the relevant governments. And I'm not sure what you're referring to with the bit about their sex lives.

Wrynn implies that Wardens aren't supposed to get any ****** (and I assume dingus, I've never played a female or gay male character) when she chastises you for breaking off a piece of someone's ass.

But I agree that the level of secrecy seems excessive, and that carrying out the joining on healthy people in times of peace seems unnecessary - you could save it for people who've already caught the taint. Though there might also be an argument for using it on people who'd otherwise have suffered execution by their government - without that finality, the governments would likely be unwilling to let them go.

I don't think it's the Wardens' right to pardon people sentenced to execution from their governments. While not all the governments have just legal systems, the wardens are theoretically dedicated to neutrality, so things like Duncan intervening in the city elf, mage and dwarf noble origins seems like they're already interfering in domestic affairs.

If you disband the Wardens then the governments will lose even this reminder when a blight is coming and be completely unprepared when a blight actually happens.

I remember Wynne saying it may not be a good idea due to the short life and the type or life a Warden usually leads but I don't recall anyone saying there was any type of control over a Warden's romantic life.

During the Origin of the city elf, Duncan was there for you to be conscripted into the Wardens. This was the case in all of the Origins stories if I recall correctly. He wasn't interveneing randomly in the nation's affairs, he came for you, and had to invoke the right of conscription in order to save you and have you join the Wardens.

[wcholcombe]

MisanthropePrime wrote...

Necanor wrote...

So what happens when there's another Blight and no Wardens to fight the Archdemon?

The individual national governments of Thedas administer the joining ritual to their soldiers and send them to kill some 'spawn? The exact same thing the Wardens do, just without all the cultish woo-woo.

Star fury wrote...

LMAO. It is not a XXI century in Thedas.

Bioware goes on and on about how big they are on "social justice", how they have all genders and sexual orientations treated well. Furthermore, a significant portion of the Ferelden national identity is based on the belief that there exists a corpus of inalienable civil rights afforded to Ferelden citizens (if not the citizens of other nations) so it's not as if the concept is without precedent.

So you want to just randomly administer teh joining to everyone when a blight occurs as opposed to letting Wardens choose people they think will survive the joining.  And what do you do to all those people who survive the joining after a blight is over?  They have the taint but there is no Wardens for them to join.  The idea of becoming a warden is taking on a sacrifice for others.  It is an honor.

Plus, the Wardens are contiously fighting darkspawn.  In the deep roads, where they show up on the surface, and they are still running around the surface of the Anderfells.

[Sir DeLoria]

MisanthropePrime wrote...

Necanor wrote...

So what happens when there's another Blight and no Wardens to fight the Archdemon?

The individual national governments of Thedas administer the joining ritual to their soldiers and send them to kill some 'spawn? The exact same thing the Wardens do, just without all the cultish woo-woo.

And you actually believe they would all help each other out and stand together to fight the darkspawn? That's kinda cute.

The Wardens don't just deliver the killing blow to the demon, they are needed as an individual third party to gather forces needed to fight the darkspawn.

If the Warden hadn't done so in DA:O Fereldan(and possibly more) would be in ashes now.

[wcholcombe]

MisanthropePrime wrote...

Trikormadenadon wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Well,
the argument for keeping the Wardens is that if you leave things to the
various nations then they'll focus on fighting each other as much as
the Blight. And indeed that the governments are liable to forget about
the darkspawn between blights.

Their right of conscription only
exists with the consent of the relevant governments. And I'm not sure
what you're referring to with the bit about their sex lives.

But I
agree that the level of secrecy seems excessive, and that carrying out
the joining on healthy people in times of peace seems unnecessary - you
could save it for people who've already caught the taint. Though there
might also be an argument for using it on people who'd otherwise have
suffered execution by their government - without that finality, the
governments would likely be unwilling to let them go.

The
reason they continue to do the joining ritual during non blight times
is because during those times they go into the Deep Roads to fight the
darkspawn. The Wardens are NEVER at a state of peace.

Do we know if these deep roads expeditions do anything? It seems like
they're just trying to justify their existence when there's no
archdemon. And I don't see why national governments can't do the same
thing- hell, Orzammar already does it.

wcholcombe wrote...

Song of Ice and Fire you mean. Yeah there is a lot of similarities.

And actually the Wardens basically run the Anderfells because they are the only real power there. The king is only interested in what goes on within his walls and does nothing for the populace at large. Thus the wardens have gained power, by taking care of the people in place of the king. However, the 1st Warden is the only one that really has his eye on politics. I doubt there are many politicians in the Grey Wardens.

Mistress Woolsey says "hi". Also the Warden-Commander and Alistair.

Really, Allistair is a king--not a politician.  He himself says he would rather be fighting then ruling.  The Warden Commander is fighting dark spawn and running a Warden outpost, not being a politician.  Mistress Woolsey is different, but I doubt she is an example of your typical grey warden.

[Star fury]

MisanthropePrime wrote...

The individual national governments of Thedas administer the joining ritual to their soldiers and send them to kill some 'spawn? The exact same thing the Wardens do, just without all the cultish woo-woo.

Do you understand that there are NO "national governments" in Thedas? There are NO "national governments" in Thedas. Thus your idea is stupid.

Monarchs of Ferelden and Orlais(Loghain and Celene?) greatly cooperated during the last Blight. Also Ferelden bans and Loghain forged a great understanding in civil war. Then elves and dwarves cooperated with humans before the Grey Warden came. All this was in one kingdom.