160 réponses à ce sujet

[MisanthropePrime]

If you disband the Wardens then the governments will lose even
this reminder when a blight is coming and be completely unprepared when a
blight actually happens.

What makes you think that? They'll
be reminded when a blight is coming when they have more Darkspawn
popping up within their borders. Then they start mobilizing the troops
like for any big war.

I remember Wynne saying it may not
be a good idea due to the short life and the type or life a Warden
usually leads but I don't recall anyone saying there was any type of
control over a Warden's romantic life.

She keeps going on and
on about how being a Warden is "sacrifice" so you apparently have to
sacrifice getting your Jory Shanked for the rest of your short life.

During
the Origin of the city elf, Duncan was there for you to be conscripted
into the Wardens. This was the case in all of the Origins stories if I
recall correctly. He wasn't interveneing randomly in the nation's
affairs, he came for you, and had to invoke the right of conscription in
order to save you and have you join the Wardens.

Duncan
randomly arrives during the Dalish Elf and Noble Dwarf origins, and I
think the Commoner Dwarf one too. Regardless, just because he's
interested in you shouldn't mean he gets to overrule the justice system
of the nation he's in: if you're convicted of a crime (murder or aiding
and abetting a maleficarum) you should be punished by the government
that has jurisdiction over you.

So you want to just randomly administer teh joining to everyone when a blight occurs as opposed to letting Wardens choose people they think will survive the joining.  And what do you do to all those people who survive the joining after a blight is over?  They have the taint but there is no Wardens for them to join.  The idea of becoming a warden is taking on a sacrifice for others.  It is an honor.

No, you administer it to your best soldiers. Every nation has them: the Ferelden Maric's Shield and Ash Warriors, Orlesian Chevaliers, etc. The idea of becoming a warden is sacrifice, but no one asked the Wardens to sacrifice. They asked the wardens to end the goddamn blights and they should skip the mumbo jumbo.

As to what to do with the corrupted soldiers after the blight is over? The same thing each government does for their injured veterans, already.

Plus, the Wardens are contiously fighting darkspawn.  In the deep roads, where they show up on the surface, and they are still running around the surface of the Anderfells.

Again, do we have any information that implies that randomly going into the Deep Roads to kill darkspawn does any good? Considering the rate at which Broodmothers plop out 'spawn I'm inclined to say "no".

[Star fury]

MisanthropePrime wrote...

Bioware goes on and on about how big they are on "social justice", how they have all genders and sexual orientations treated well. Furthermore, a significant portion of the Ferelden national identity is based on the belief that there exists a corpus of inalienable civil rights afforded to Ferelden citizens (if not the citizens of other nations) so it's not as if the concept is without precedent.

Nice headcanon. I'm not going to refute it.

What about my other points.

There are no "National governments" and militaries in Thedas, there is a feudalism there. FEUDALISM. There are kingdoms and monarch is the country with feudal levies.

[leaguer of one]

wcholcombe wrote...



Really, Allistair is a king--not a politician.  He himself says he would rather be fighting then ruling.  The Warden Commander is fighting dark spawn and running a Warden outpost, not being a politician.  Mistress Woolsey is different, but I doubt she is an example of your typical grey warden.

And that's the wrong way of thinking. Wars and battles are 2 sided with what you have to face: The enemy and the support need to fight the enemy. That is the stregth of politics , it has the power to give the soldiers of the war the support they need to fight wars. Who do you think arrages thing for food, weapons, and items needed to supply a war? The politician acts as that middle man. That does not mean they are perfict being that they ahve there own ends as well.

[Wulfram]

@Misanthrope Wynne doesn't really know all that much about the Wardens. And I think her objections to the Warden's activities are more along the lines of it generally not being a good idea to sleep with people you're fighting with and, even more, commanding.

I think allowing the Wardens to conscript skilled condemned men is a sensible use of resources - and the nations presumably agree, since they consent to it. There's no issue of sovereignty, because a country could always rescind that consent if the Wardens used it improperly.

@Other people The wardens are fighting the Darkspawn constantly, yes. But the joining can save those with blight sickness, so my argument is that they should reacitvely use the joining on worthy people who are struck down with the Blight, rather than Joining them first. Though it's possible that there might be practical reasons against this, I don't think we've heard any so far.

[leaguer of one]

MisanthropePrime wrote...

If you disband the Wardens then the governments will lose even
this reminder when a blight is coming and be completely unprepared when a
blight actually happens.

What makes you think that? They'll
be reminded when a blight is coming when they have more Darkspawn
popping up within their borders. Then they start mobilizing the troops
like for any big war.

I remember Wynne saying it may not
be a good idea due to the short life and the type or life a Warden
usually leads but I don't recall anyone saying there was any type of
control over a Warden's romantic life.

She keeps going on and
on about how being a Warden is "sacrifice" so you apparently have to
sacrifice getting your Jory Shanked for the rest of your short life.

During
the Origin of the city elf, Duncan was there for you to be conscripted
into the Wardens. This was the case in all of the Origins stories if I
recall correctly. He wasn't interveneing randomly in the nation's
affairs, he came for you, and had to invoke the right of conscription in
order to save you and have you join the Wardens.

Duncan
randomly arrives during the Dalish Elf and Noble Dwarf origins, and I
think the Commoner Dwarf one too. Regardless, just because he's
interested in you shouldn't mean he gets to overrule the justice system
of the nation he's in: if you're convicted of a crime (murder or aiding
and abetting a maleficarum) you should be punished by the government
that has jurisdiction over you.

So you want to just randomly administer teh joining to everyone when a blight occurs as opposed to letting Wardens choose people they think will survive the joining.  And what do you do to all those people who survive the joining after a blight is over?  They have the taint but there is no Wardens for them to join.  The idea of becoming a warden is taking on a sacrifice for others.  It is an honor.

No, you administer it to your best soldiers. Every nation has them: the Ferelden Maric's Shield and Ash Warriors, Orlesian Chevaliers, etc. The idea of becoming a warden is sacrifice, but no one asked the Wardens to sacrifice. They asked the wardens to end the goddamn blights and they should skip the mumbo jumbo.

As to what to do with the corrupted soldiers after the blight is over? The same thing each government does for their injured veterans, already.

Plus, the Wardens are contiously fighting darkspawn.  In the deep roads, where they show up on the surface, and they are still running around the surface of the Anderfells.

Again, do we have any information that implies that randomly going into the Deep Roads to kill darkspawn does any good? Considering the rate at which Broodmothers plop out 'spawn I'm inclined to say "no".

1. What garantees that the nations will  see the need to hold the practiaces of the wardens. Remeber a blght happens over sereal 100 of years. Support of the warden wither over time. What makes you think a country will finace that?

2.That does not mean wardens don't have romance in there life.

3.Why not? It's not a get out of jail card. You basicly becaome a dead man walking. Usually, you are fted to die to dark spawn or the taint form the ritual. It's a choice of doom over doom.

[Chaos Hammer]

Wulfram wrote...

@Misanthrope Wynne doesn't really know all that much about the Wardens. And I think her objections to the Warden's activities are more along the lines of it generally not being a good idea to sleep with people you're fighting with and, even more, commanding.

I think allowing the Wardens to conscript skilled condemned men is a sensible use of resources - and the nations presumably agree, since they consent to it. There's no issue of sovereignty, because a country could always rescind that consent if the Wardens used it improperly.

@Other people The wardens are fighting the Darkspawn constantly, yes. But the joining can save those with blight sickness, so my argument is that they should reacitvely use the joining on worthy people who are struck down with the Blight, rather than Joining them first. Though it's possible that there might be practical reasons against this, I don't think we've heard any so far.

The Wardens are not a charity, ask Duncan or Stroud. Their job is to protect the people from the dark spawn, and while our warden laid waste to the DS, the Spawn are supposed to be horrific and difficult to defeat even in small numbers. Ogres are incredibly BA. My point being, the joining is a sacrifice to be made to protect others, not some miracle cure for the taint.

The harboring of undesirables is hardly fair, they are like the Legion of the Dead (who I would argue should join the Wardens) it is forgetting your past in order to protect the greater good.

Thirdly, the whole un necessary deaths argument is insane, people that believe this are the whole reason the secrecy of the wardens is necessary. The sacrifice of the few to save the many is a grizzly reality, but it is necessary to protect the world of thedas.

Edit: Removed extra line that I never finished

Modifié par Chaos Hammer, 22 octobre 2013 - 09:47 .

[Trikormadenadon]

MisanthropePrime wrote...

Trikormadenadon wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Well,
the argument for keeping the Wardens is that if you leave things to the
various nations then they'll focus on fighting each other as much as
the Blight. And indeed that the governments are liable to forget about
the darkspawn between blights.

Their right of conscription only
exists with the consent of the relevant governments. And I'm not sure
what you're referring to with the bit about their sex lives.

But I
agree that the level of secrecy seems excessive, and that carrying out
the joining on healthy people in times of peace seems unnecessary - you
could save it for people who've already caught the taint. Though there
might also be an argument for using it on people who'd otherwise have
suffered execution by their government - without that finality, the
governments would likely be unwilling to let them go.

The
reason they continue to do the joining ritual during non blight times
is because during those times they go into the Deep Roads to fight the
darkspawn. The Wardens are NEVER at a state of peace.

Do we know if these deep roads expeditions do anything? It seems like
they're just trying to justify their existence when there's no
archdemon. And I don't see why national governments can't do the same
thing- hell, Orzammar already does it.

wcholcombe wrote...

Song of Ice and Fire you mean. Yeah there is a lot of similarities.

And actually the Wardens basically run the Anderfells because they are the only real power there. The king is only interested in what goes on within his walls and does nothing for the populace at large. Thus the wardens have gained power, by taking care of the people in place of the king. However, the 1st Warden is the only one that really has his eye on politics. I doubt there are many politicians in the Grey Wardens.

Mistress Woolsey says "hi". Also the Warden-Commander and Alistair.

By the same token we don't know that these excursions into the Deep Roads are not a wasted effort either. Therefore it is pointless to bring this topic up.

[wcholcombe]

MisanthropePrime wrote...

I remember Wynne saying it may not
be a good idea due to the short life and the type or life a Warden
usually leads but I don't recall anyone saying there was any type of
control over a Warden's romantic life.

She keeps going on and
on about how being a Warden is "sacrifice" so you apparently have to
sacrifice getting your Jory Shanked for the rest of your short life.

[

In "The Calling" it is repeatedly made very obvious that Wardens take no
vow of chastity.  Heck some wardens get married to other wardens. 

[DarthLaxian]

MisanthropePrime wrote...

A discussion in another on the Dragon Age subreddit started me off on a tangent: does the world need the Grey Wardens as an institution?

Think about the Grey Wardens' job: we think of them as heroes, as soldiers, but really, their job is disaster control, and they have an absolute monopoly on responding to that disaster.

Imagine a world in which one and only one organization was allowed to respond to areas hit by hurricanes, earthquakes, or something more infrequent and devastating like volcanic eruptions. Imagine if something happened to them- something like Ostagar, but in the real world. The Warden and Alistair pulled a million-to-one chance at defeating the Archdemon in Denerim, but do you think the rest of the world should gamble with the lives of their citizens in such a manner?

The Grey Wardens also harbor maleficarum like Avernus and Anders, men who would not have been able to do their horrific deeds had they not been protected by the wardens and given their resources. Having so few men defending the world from a nigh-apocalyptic threat leaves such a wide avenue for abuse it's almost comical.

Let's also remember the right of conscription, a rather terrible prospect. As far as I know, no nations in Thedas have compulsory military service, but the Wardens can waltz in, supersede local authority, pardon convicted murderers and blood mages, and force them to join their ranks. The United States has gone to war for less.

And let's remember that for all the heroes like Duncan, the PC and Riordan, the bulk of the Wardens at Weisshaupt are not heroes, but politicians. Their control of the Anderfels makes them a military dictatorship, and Mistress Woolsey in Awakening does not hide the fact that the First Warden is jockeying for more power abroad, as well. This tendency towards Anders Grey Wardens to put politics over lifesaving is just another reason why the Wardens should be abolished: the heroic individuals were often able to best serve the people from the geographic area they were most familiar with, after all.

If the anti-blight techniques used by the Wardens were instead turned over to the civilian governments of Thedas and in turn incorporated into specialized blight-fighting military units, the Wardens would be rendered obsolete. And, obviously, the wardens in Weisshaupt know this, which is why they operate with such secrecy. The Joining ritual, as I once argued, is entirely inefficient (why maintain a force of tainted soldiers whose life expectancy is shortened by decades, when you could simply rapidly administer the joining when a blight actually occurs? You'd have the exact same mortality rate but at the very least prevent unnecessary loss of life in peacetime), but it's maintained because the Wardens operate extremely similarly to a cult: drugging their initiates, preventing them from contacting their families, controlling their sex lives, forcing them to uproot and live with other cultists... and remember that governments allow the Wardens to basically kidnap whoever they want and force them into this lifestyle.

Now, I understand that at the time the Wardens were created, there was only really one nation-state (Tevinter) and it was doing poorly. There was barely any national government, and so its drastic measures (and the entitlements given to them) made sense at the time. But Thedosian society has evolved in leaps and bounds since then, and almost every nation has a well trained and equipped fighting force of their own. Who's to say a few Ash Warriors or Chevaliers can't kick back an archdemon blood cocktail and do the Warden's job without the secrecy and centralization?

We have a rosy outlook on the Wardens because we played one in Origins, and the ones we saw in Origins are implied to be very different from the bulk of the organization. And even the Warden Commander of Ferelden frequently bucked protocol, in a way showing how inefficient the Wardens as an organization truly are.


TLDR version: The Wardens as an organization are terribly inefficient when it comes to their duty. The bulk of the organization is only concerned with self perpetuation and strengthening its power base. It engages in deplorable practices that ruin lives and place society at risk. National governments and militaries, with access to the Wardens' proprietary technology and training, could do their job far more efficiently with fewer rights violations.

i totally AGREE - and no, i don't have a good outlook on the wardens (i respect them because most of them were forced into this live (not many want to join - because it is known (or at least supected) that being one shortens your life (Anora for example knew, the dwarfs know etc.) but i don't like them and have - in the past - argued along the same lines (!)...maintain a darkspawn killing force (help out the dwarfs) and give them the --- SPOILER (The Calling!) --- anti-taint medication (so that no one needs to take the blood because he is tainted already!) the mages gave to King Marric - but keep the blood handy if a blight occurs and then ask for volunteers and raid the prisons (all people on death-row get the blood and will fight the arch demon with the help of our anti-darkspawn-force)

greetings LAX
ps: all my DA:O characters were conscripted/had not choice (none went willingly - Duncan or no Duncan, but being forced into the Wardens? - Thanks, but no thanks.

Modifié par DarthLaxian, 22 octobre 2013 - 10:24 .

[Reaverwind]

Chaos Hammer wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

@Misanthrope Wynne doesn't really know all that much about the Wardens. And I think her objections to the Warden's activities are more along the lines of it generally not being a good idea to sleep with people you're fighting with and, even more, commanding.

I think allowing the Wardens to conscript skilled condemned men is a sensible use of resources - and the nations presumably agree, since they consent to it. There's no issue of sovereignty, because a country could always rescind that consent if the Wardens used it improperly.

@Other people The wardens are fighting the Darkspawn constantly, yes. But the joining can save those with blight sickness, so my argument is that they should reacitvely use the joining on worthy people who are struck down with the Blight, rather than Joining them first. Though it's possible that there might be practical reasons against this, I don't think we've heard any so far.

The Wardens are not a charity, ask Duncan or Stroud. Their job is to protect the people from the dark spawn, and while our warden laid waste to the DS, the Spawn are supposed to be horrific and difficult to defeat even in small numbers. Ogres are incredibly BA. My point being, the joining is a sacrifice to be made to protect others, not some miracle cure for the taint.

The harboring of undesirables is hardly fair, they are like the Legion of the Dead (who I would argue should join the Wardens) it is forgetting your past in order to protect the greater good.

Thirdly, the whole un necessary deaths argument is insane, people that believe this are the whole reason the secrecy of the wardens is necessary. The sacrifice of the few to save the many is a grizzly reality, but it is necessary to protect the world of thedas.

I guess a lot of people have a hard time accepting the third concept. For me, the losses are acceptable for the greater good, though I would hope the Wardens continue their research into making the Joining a bit less lethal.

[Zered]

I'd never expect the nobles of Thedas to use the Wardens technology and training for the greater good.

[Wulfram]

Chaos Hammer wrote...

Thirdly, the whole un necessary deaths argument is insane, people that believe this are the whole reason the secrecy of the wardens is necessary. The sacrifice of the few to save the many is a grizzly reality, but it is necessary to protect the world of thedas.

Just because some deaths are necessary, doesn't mean you shouldn't try to keep casualties to those that do in fact serve a greater purpose and no more.

Grey Warden candidates are skilled warriors and thus valuable assets.  Having them die before they even face more than a few darkspawn is counter-productive.

[myahele]

As long as they remain a neutral organization that fights dark spawns.

Once they get into politics is when things get bad. It'll have to be up to the nation's whether to expel them from there countries or accept themnas rulers

[MisanthropePrime]

myahele wrote...

As long as they remain a neutral organization that fights dark spawns.

Once they get into politics is when things get bad. It'll have to be up to the nation's whether to expel them from there countries or accept themnas rulers

But they're already in politics, in the Anderfels and Ferelden.

[AresKeith]

Wulfram wrote...

Chaos Hammer wrote...

Thirdly, the whole un necessary deaths argument is insane, people that believe this are the whole reason the secrecy of the wardens is necessary. The sacrifice of the few to save the many is a grizzly reality, but it is necessary to protect the world of thedas.

Just because some deaths are necessary, doesn't mean you shouldn't try to keep casualties to those that do in fact serve a greater purpose and no more.

Grey Warden candidates are skilled warriors and thus valuable assets.  Having them die before they even face more than a few darkspawn is counter-productive.

The Grey Wardens are constantly fighting Darkspawn regardless of it being a blight or not, they face more than a few darkspawn

[MisanthropePrime]

AresKeith wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Chaos Hammer wrote...

Thirdly, the whole un necessary deaths argument is insane, people that believe this are the whole reason the secrecy of the wardens is necessary. The sacrifice of the few to save the many is a grizzly reality, but it is necessary to protect the world of thedas.

Just because some deaths are necessary, doesn't mean you shouldn't try to keep casualties to those that do in fact serve a greater purpose and no more.

Grey Warden candidates are skilled warriors and thus valuable assets.  Having them die before they even face more than a few darkspawn is counter-productive.

The Grey Wardens are constantly fighting Darkspawn regardless of it being a blight or not, they face more than a few darkspawn

But why do they constantly fight darkspawn when there's no blight? What proof do we have that their forays into the deep roads are effective and not just busywork to justify their position?

[Br3admax]

MisanthropePrime wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Chaos Hammer wrote...

Thirdly, the whole un necessary deaths argument is insane, people that believe this are the whole reason the secrecy of the wardens is necessary. The sacrifice of the few to save the many is a grizzly reality, but it is necessary to protect the world of thedas.

Just because some deaths are necessary, doesn't mean you shouldn't try to keep casualties to those that do in fact serve a greater purpose and no more.

Grey Warden candidates are skilled warriors and thus valuable assets.  Having them die before they even face more than a few darkspawn is counter-productive.

The Grey Wardens are constantly fighting Darkspawn regardless of it being a blight or not, they face more than a few darkspawn

But why do they constantly fight darkspawn when there's no blight? What proof do we have that their forays into the deep roads are effective and not just busywork to justify their position?

What proof do we have that the Great Oak isn't the same person as the Mad Hermit? 

[AresKeith]

MisanthropePrime wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Chaos Hammer wrote...

Thirdly, the whole un necessary deaths argument is insane, people that believe this are the whole reason the secrecy of the wardens is necessary. The sacrifice of the few to save the many is a grizzly reality, but it is necessary to protect the world of thedas.

Just because some deaths are necessary, doesn't mean you shouldn't try to keep casualties to those that do in fact serve a greater purpose and no more.

Grey Warden candidates are skilled warriors and thus valuable assets.  Having them die before they even face more than a few darkspawn is counter-productive.

The Grey Wardens are constantly fighting Darkspawn regardless of it being a blight or not, they face more than a few darkspawn

But why do they constantly fight darkspawn when there's no blight? What proof do we have that their forays into the deep roads are effective and not just busywork to justify their position?

There sole purpose besides ending the blights is ridding Thedas of the Darkspawn

[MisanthropePrime]

AresKeith wrote...

MisanthropePrime wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Chaos Hammer wrote...

Thirdly, the whole un necessary deaths argument is insane, people that believe this are the whole reason the secrecy of the wardens is necessary. The sacrifice of the few to save the many is a grizzly reality, but it is necessary to protect the world of thedas.

Just because some deaths are necessary, doesn't mean you shouldn't try to keep casualties to those that do in fact serve a greater purpose and no more.

Grey Warden candidates are skilled warriors and thus valuable assets.  Having them die before they even face more than a few darkspawn is counter-productive.

The Grey Wardens are constantly fighting Darkspawn regardless of it being a blight or not, they face more than a few darkspawn

But why do they constantly fight darkspawn when there's no blight? What proof do we have that their forays into the deep roads are effective and not just busywork to justify their position?

There sole purpose besides ending the blights is ridding Thedas of the Darkspawn

And how does going into the deep roads and randomly killing darkspawn actually rid thedas of darkspawn? If they were shown to be successful in, say, killing broodmothers, that'd be different. But we know Darkspawn breed FAST, faster than they can be killed.

[Mister Gusty]

MisanthropePrime wrote...

If the anti-blight techniques used by the Wardens were instead turned over to the civilian governments of Thedas and in turn incorporated into specialized blight-fighting military units, the Wardens would be rendered obsolete.

So you want to replace the Grey Wardens with specialized blight-fighting military units

or

to put it another way you want to replace Grey Wardens with.... Grey Wardens

[AresKeith]

MisanthropePrime wrote...

And how does going into the deep roads and randomly killing darkspawn actually rid thedas of darkspawn? If they were shown to be successful in, say, killing broodmothers, that'd be different. But we know Darkspawn breed FAST, faster than they can be killed.

What makes you think they aren't trying to kill the broodmothers?

Just because the Darkspawn breed fast isn't gonna stop them from killing as many as they can outside of the Blight

[MisanthropePrime]

Mister Gusty wrote...

MisanthropePrime wrote...

If the anti-blight techniques used by the Wardens were instead turned over to the civilian governments of Thedas and in turn incorporated into specialized blight-fighting military units, the Wardens would be rendered obsolete.

So you want to replace the Grey Wardens with specialized blight-fighting military units

or

to put it another way you want to replace Grey Wardens with.... Grey Wardens

The difference being that these units will be part of the national militaries rather than an inefficient NGO and subject to the chain of command and national laws.

[Maconbar]

Couldn't any of these states take over the role of the wardens if they wanted?

[MisanthropePrime]

AresKeith wrote...

MisanthropePrime wrote...

And how does going into the deep roads and randomly killing darkspawn actually rid thedas of darkspawn? If they were shown to be successful in, say, killing broodmothers, that'd be different. But we know Darkspawn breed FAST, faster than they can be killed.

What makes you think they aren't trying to kill the broodmothers?

Just because the Darkspawn breed fast isn't gonna stop them from killing as many as they can outside of the Blight

So your solution is "throw as many people against the wall until they're dead and hope they make a dent?"

This is what I mean when I call the wardens "inefficient". At least the Legion of the Dead, when they do it, are trying deliberately to die.