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[MisanthropePrime]

Reaverwind wrote...

Chaos Hammer wrote...

MisanthropePrime wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

The
extinction of archdemons will not stop darkspawn coming to the surface.
That will still happen no matter what. The Grey Wardens prevent things
like large raiding bands from killing town after town. Think about that
while you say that random, unprotected soldiers should do it instead.

Did you read my topic at all? I suggest that the soldiers of
national militaries should have the joining administered to them before
fighting the darkspawn. It's just that the Grey Wardens as an
organization have no reason to exist if other nations have the joining
ritual.

That's great, remember Jory? You know the
great knight who chickened out after seeing the joining? Or Mhari the
great knight who died during the joining? Not to mention, the joining
requires Arch Demon blood... I don't believe theres a whole hell of a
lot of that just floating around. Annnd theres the whole problem that
the Joining is blood magic.... which means the Chantry and all Non
Tevinter Andrastians will hate you for it and probably rebel. Not to
mention, even the soldiers who survive the joining, are then tainted
forever. Sounds like a great solution.

No head of
state would ever mandate the joining for troops until it was far, far
too late. It'd be political suicide. There's a reason for keeping it a
secret.

That's why you have generals mandate it, not politicians?

Dude the Mother went insane because she couldn't hear the call. When the call stops, all of the Darkspawn will be "awakened." they will all go into a frenzy because the call will be gone. You're just grasping at straws at this point. As long as there are darkspawn, we will need a few to combat them, and I doubt the highest and mightest of noble armies will be the first to volunteer. We'll need the Grey Wardens until the darkspawn are gone for good. 

That's absolute conjecture at this point. We know that whatever the architect did it was more than "just" cutting them off from the call. The mother underwent significant physiological changes as well.

[Reaverwind]

MisanthropePrime wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

No head of
state would ever mandate the joining for troops until it was far, far
too late. It'd be political suicide. There's a reason for keeping it a
secret.

That's why you have generals mandate it, not politicians?

Oh please. Generals answer to the head of state. That nonsense won't fool anyone.

Modifié par Reaverwind, 23 octobre 2013 - 12:20 .

[MisanthropePrime]

Reaverwind wrote...

MisanthropePrime wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

No head of
state would ever mandate the joining for troops until it was far, far
too late. It'd be political suicide. There's a reason for keeping it a
secret.

That's why you have generals mandate it, not politicians?

Oh please. Generals answer to the head of state. That nonsense won't fool anyone.

Generals have completely different job security than politicians. Not to mention the whole point of military training is to condition soldiers to obey their superiors: one of the reasons Jory chickened out was because Duncan was, for all intents and purposes, just another civilian and not his superior. For Wardens, all of the indoctrination that comes with military training happens after the joining, which makes little sense.

[Cainhurst Crow]

This thread needs an exalted mod march against it into the ban zone.

[Reaverwind]

MisanthropePrime wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

MisanthropePrime wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

No head of
state would ever mandate the joining for troops until it was far, far
too late. It'd be political suicide. There's a reason for keeping it a
secret.

That's why you have generals mandate it, not politicians?

Oh please. Generals answer to the head of state. That nonsense won't fool anyone.

Generals have completely different job security than politicians. Not to mention the whole point of military training is to condition soldiers to obey their superiors: one of the reasons Jory chickened out was because Duncan was, for all intents and purposes, just another civilian and not his superior. For Wardens, all of the indoctrination that comes with military training happens after the joining, which makes little sense.

It does NOT matter. The first thing that will happen if a general attempts to pull this stunt is that he gets sacked at best, and executed at worst - as damage control. Soldiers expect to combat to very hazardous to their health, but I guarantee very few would sign up to die from poison now or die slowly from it later. 

[Cainhurst Crow]

MisanthropePrime wrote...

Imagine a world in which one and only one organization was allowed to respond to areas hit by hurricanes, earthquakes, or something more infrequent and devastating like volcanic eruptions. Imagine if something happened to them- something like Ostagar, but in the real world. The Warden and Alistair pulled a million-to-one chance at defeating the Archdemon in Denerim, but do you think the rest of the world should gamble with the lives of their citizens in such a manner?

1. That's the entire point of having an organization like FEMA, so you have a centrally coordinated relief effort and not a bunch of scrambled and disorganized responses. You can argue it doesn't work, that's fine. But it is there.

2. Other nations can respond to the blight, the wardens don't forbid people from fighting darkspawn unless they're certified warden personnel. It's just riskier from them than having people who specialize in dealing with the crises that strike centuries apart from one another.

3. Ostagar was entirely because of a person who wasn't a warden deciding they didn't need the warden's help to face the darkspawn. The reason ostagar was so bad was because of what happened afterwards as well. Loghain led a campaign to hunt down and kill every warden, whether they were or weren't at ostigar, and silence them out of paranoia of orlais. And you want to trust people like that with handling the defense of their country from the darkspawn and arch-demon?

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 23 octobre 2013 - 12:31 .

[MisanthropePrime]

Reaverwind wrote...

MisanthropePrime wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

MisanthropePrime wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

No head of
state would ever mandate the joining for troops until it was far, far
too late. It'd be political suicide. There's a reason for keeping it a
secret.

That's why you have generals mandate it, not politicians?

Oh please. Generals answer to the head of state. That nonsense won't fool anyone.

Generals have completely different job security than politicians. Not to mention the whole point of military training is to condition soldiers to obey their superiors: one of the reasons Jory chickened out was because Duncan was, for all intents and purposes, just another civilian and not his superior. For Wardens, all of the indoctrination that comes with military training happens after the joining, which makes little sense.

It does NOT matter. The first thing that will happen if a general attempts to pull this stunt is that he gets sacked at best, and executed at worst - as damage control. Soldiers expect to combat to very hazardous to their health, but I guarantee very few would sign up to die from poison now or die slowly from it later. 

IRL militaries prescribe drugs such as ampethetamines to fighter pilots to help them focus. What's the difference between that and the joining ritual, exactly? Both have a chance of killing the soldier or shortening their life. Both the fighter pilot and the specialized darkspawn-fighter require years of training before they'd be given the honor of being in a position where such chemicals would be administered.

[Reaverwind]

MisanthropePrime wrote...


IRL militaries prescribe drugs such as ampethetamines to fighter pilots to help them focus. What's the difference between that and the joining ritual, exactly? Both have a chance of killing the soldier or shortening their life. Both the fighter pilot and the specialized darkspawn-fighter require years of training before they'd be given the honor of being in a position where such chemicals would be administered.

Now you're pulling crap out of left field.

[MisanthropePrime]

Darth Brotarian wrote...
1. That's the entire point of having an organization like FEMA, so you have a centrally coordinated relief effort and not a bunch of scrambled and disorganized responses. You can argue it doesn't work, that's fine. But it is there.

D... do you know what "FEMA" stands for? It's Federal Emergency Management Agency. "Federal" as in "run by the United States Government".

2. Other nations can respond to the blight, the wardens don't forbid people from fighting darkspawn unless they're certified warden personnel. It's just riskier from them than having people who specialize in dealing with the crises that strike centuries apart from one another.

Other nations cannot end the blight because the Grey Wardens selfishly maintain a monopoly on the technology required to end them. Why should the wardens be concerned with the "risk" to other nations' soldiers?

3. Ostagar was entirely because of a person who wasn't a warden deciding they didn't need the warden's help to face the darkspawn. The reason ostagar was so bad was because of what happened afterwards as well. Loghain led a campaign to hunt down and kill every warden, whether they were or weren't at ostigar, and silence them out of paranoia of orlais. And you want to trust people like that with handling the defense of their country from the darkspawn and arch-demon?

Loghain didn't kill every warden. He only imprisoned (not executed) the Wardens in Ferelden... of which there were only three after Ostagar, anyway. Furthermore, Ostagar was an unforseeable consequence, yes. Centralized systems are especially succeptible to unforseen consequences. Decentralizing the archdemon-killing to the national level would build in enough redundancy that an event like Ostagar wouldn't doom an entire nation or continent.

[MisanthropePrime]

Reaverwind wrote...

MisanthropePrime wrote...


IRL militaries prescribe drugs such as ampethetamines to fighter pilots to help them focus. What's the difference between that and the joining ritual, exactly? Both have a chance of killing the soldier or shortening their life. Both the fighter pilot and the specialized darkspawn-fighter require years of training before they'd be given the honor of being in a position where such chemicals would be administered.

Now you're pulling crap out of left field.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dextroamphetamine#Military_usage

[Cainhurst Crow]

MisanthropePrime wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...
1. That's the entire point of having an organization like FEMA, so you have a centrally coordinated relief effort and not a bunch of scrambled and disorganized responses. You can argue it doesn't work, that's fine. But it is there.

D... do you know what "FEMA" stands for? It's Federal Emergency Management Agency. "Federal" as in "run by the United States Government".

Does that even matter?

2. Other nations can respond to the blight, the wardens don't forbid people from fighting darkspawn unless they're certified warden personnel. It's just riskier from them than having people who specialize in dealing with the crises that strike centuries apart from one another.

Other nations cannot end the blight because the Grey Wardens selfishly maintain a monopoly on the technology required to end them. Why should the wardens be concerned with the "risk" to other nations' soldiers?

Because joinings can kill from 1/4 to 2/3 participants in the ritual, and cuts down their lifespan to 30 years maximum. So if an entire nation dedicated their army to going through the joining, not only would they lose a large chunk of their forces before the battle had even begun, but would be left without any experienced soliders when the taint finally claims them.

Not something I think any nation would submit their own men to.

3. Ostagar was entirely because of a person who wasn't a warden deciding they didn't need the warden's help to face the darkspawn. The reason ostagar was so bad was because of what happened afterwards as well. Loghain led a campaign to hunt down and kill every warden, whether they were or weren't at ostigar, and silence them out of paranoia of orlais. And you want to trust people like that with handling the defense of their country from the darkspawn and arch-demon?

Loghain didn't kill every warden. He only imprisoned (not executed) the Wardens in Ferelden... of which there were only three after Ostagar, anyway. Furthermore, Ostagar was an unforseeable consequence, yes. Centralized systems are especially succeptible to unforseen consequences. Decentralizing the archdemon-killing to the national level would build in enough redundancy that an event like Ostagar wouldn't doom an entire nation or continent.

And what happens 50 years from now, in between the blights, when the people begin questioning why they need to even participate in this dangerous ritual with the darkspawn not threatening their lands? Or when the lords begin abusing their power and using the joining the same way the golems were used by the dwarven kings, as a threat and tool against their enemies?

Or even better, when whatever amount of archdemon blood they do need for the ritual is quickly used by the massive influx of new recruits across the continent? What, are you going to limit the number of wardens to just 2 or 3 per country?

And just so you know, the other wardens were more than willing to come and reinforce fereldens army. They weren't stopped by loghians stunt, but he stubornly forbide any of them from entering his lands. Those that were still here were kept prisoner by howe, and slowly tortured, sometimes to death like his other prisoners.

[Si-Shen]

Biggest issue I am seeing with this thread is the application of a modern outlook on a mid evil time period. The Warden's are needed because unlike ALL of the governments in place right now, they are stable comparatively.
Kingdoms and Empires are too unstable to replace them as an effective force, every monarchs death risks complete war between the possible heirs.
Also the worry about "political suicide" in a time of kings? Seriously? You do know what happens when you disobey a King right? A life in chains would be a blessing compared to what they MIGHT do,

In the end, the Wardens are still required, too few are willing to do what they do and NOT use it for their own gain, and yes, anything that can be "used" for one purpose can be used for gain. We see it in both the games and the novels.

[Reaverwind]

Si-Shen wrote...

Biggest issue I am seeing with this thread is the application of a modern outlook on a mid evil time period. The Warden's are needed because unlike ALL of the governments in place right now, they are stable comparatively.
Kingdoms and Empires are too unstable to replace them as an effective force, every monarchs death risks complete war between the possible heirs.
Also the worry about "political suicide" in a time of kings? Seriously?

Yes, seriously, especially in a time of kings where the throne is often in contention. The Crows say hello.

[MisanthropePrime]

[quote]Darth Brotarian wrote...

[quote]MisanthropePrime wrote...

[quote]Darth Brotarian wrote...
1. That's the entire point of having an organization like FEMA, so you have a centrally coordinated relief effort and not a bunch of scrambled and disorganized responses. You can argue it doesn't work, that's fine. But it is there.[/quote]
D... do you know what "FEMA" stands for? It's Federal Emergency Management Agency. "Federal" as in "run by the United States Government".

[/quote]

Does that even matter?[/quote]
Yes? Because I'm advocating in favor of nationalized blight-response organizations and comparing them to disaster relief agencies. FEMA is a nationalized disaster relief agency, and its usefulness proves my point, not refutes it.

[quote][quote]
[quote]2. Other nations can respond to the blight, the wardens don't forbid people from fighting darkspawn unless they're certified warden personnel. It's just riskier from them than having people who specialize in dealing with the crises that strike centuries apart from one another.[/quote]
Other nations cannot end the blight because the Grey Wardens selfishly maintain a monopoly on the technology required to end them. Why should the wardens be concerned with the "risk" to other nations' soldiers?

[/quote]

Because joinings can kill from 1/4 to 2/3 participants in the ritual, and cuts down their lifespan to 30 years maximum. So if an entire nation dedicated their army to going through the joining, not only would they lose a large chunk of their forces before the battle had even begun, but would be left without any experienced soliders when the taint finally claims them.

Not something I think any nation would submit their own men to.[/quote][/quote]
There have been three joinings portrayed in the series: Alistair's, the PC's and the one in Awakening. In Alistair's, one died from the joining. In the PC's, one died from the joining. The other was murdered by Duncan, he never got around to drinking the kool-aid. In Awakening, one out of six died from the joining (Justice was undead and already a warden, so he didn't undertake it). At maximum it appears to have a 33% mortality rate. That's less fatal than getting an infected wound.

[quote][quote]

[quote]3. Ostagar was entirely because of a person who wasn't a warden deciding they didn't need the warden's help to face the darkspawn. The reason ostagar was so bad was because of what happened afterwards as well. Loghain led a campaign to hunt down and kill every warden, whether they were or weren't at ostigar, and silence them out of paranoia of orlais. And you want to trust people like that with handling the defense of their country from the darkspawn and arch-demon?[/quote]
Loghain didn't kill every warden. He only imprisoned (not executed) the Wardens in Ferelden... of which there were only three after Ostagar, anyway. Furthermore, Ostagar was an unforseeable consequence, yes. Centralized systems are especially succeptible to unforseen consequences. Decentralizing the archdemon-killing to the national level would build in enough redundancy that an event like Ostagar wouldn't doom an entire nation or continent.

[/quote]

And what happens 50 years from now, in between the blights, when the people begin questioning why they need to even participate in this dangerous ritual with the darkspawn not threatening their lands? Or when the lords begin abusing their power and using the joining the same way the golems were used by the dwarven kings, as a threat and tool against their enemies?

Or even better, when whatever amount of archdemon blood they do need for the ritual is quickly used by the massive influx of new recruits across the continent? What, are you going to limit the number of wardens to just 2 or 3 per country?

And just so you know, the other wardens were more than willing to come and reinforce fereldens army. They weren't stopped by loghians stunt, but he stubornly forbide any of them from entering his lands. Those that were still here were kept prisoner by howe, and slowly tortured, sometimes to death like his other prisoners.
[/quote][/quote]
You... don't have people undertake the ritual when there's no blight. That's just a waste. When enough Darkspawn emerge for people to realize that yeah, there's a blight going on, you have people do some darkspawn blood bodyshots, a third of them die, and then the rest go off to fight the Archdemon. You might say this is inefficient, but you tell me which is worse: shortening the lifespan of every standing member to a few decades for no reason during a time of peace that lasts for centuries, or letting an expected 33% of people drop dead when you've already made adjustments for it? Furthermore, aside from sensing Darkspawn, undergoing the joining doesn't confer any benefits (unless someone got a hand on Avernus' research and had dispensation to use it, and even then, his power of blood abilities weren't that useful) and it's not at all analogou to the joining. Additionally, it's already been established by David Gaider that Archdemon blood isn't needed for the joining, and under my proposed system fewer people would need to undergo the joining than the Grey Wardens have undergoing it now. You don't limit the number of wardens, but you rapidly turn people into potential Archdemon slayers when the time comes.

Modifié par MisanthropePrime, 23 octobre 2013 - 01:01 .

[Xilizhra]

This strikes me as a fantastically bad idea. Sure, the Wardens are imperfect, but I don't see why the various monarchies would do a better job with it, and the Right of Conscription has many uses (in fact, many of its uses--all, in fact, that I remember--involved saving those who were going to be killed unjustly).

Furthermore, aside from sensing Darkspawn, undergoing the joining
doesn't confer any benefits (unless someone got a hand on Avernus'
research and had dispensation to use it, and even then, his power of
blood abilities weren't that useful) and it's not at all analogou to the joining.

It makes you immune to the taint from their blood, which, realistically, is pretty damned important.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 23 octobre 2013 - 01:02 .

[Br3admax]

 I believe that I have won this argument, friends.

[MisanthropePrime]

Si-Shen wrote...

Biggest issue I am seeing with this thread is the application of a modern outlook on a mid evil time period. The Warden's are needed because unlike ALL of the governments in place right now, they are stable comparatively.
Kingdoms and Empires are too unstable to replace them as an effective force, every monarchs death risks complete war between the possible heirs.
Also the worry about "political suicide" in a time of kings? Seriously? You do know what happens when you disobey a King right? A life in chains would be a blessing compared to what they MIGHT do,

In the end, the Wardens are still required, too few are willing to do what they do and NOT use it for their own gain, and yes, anything that can be "used" for one purpose can be used for gain. We see it in both the games and the novels.

If Thedas had a medieval outlook no woman would be wearing pants, all instances of miscegenation and homosexuality would be persecuted, life expectancy would be much lower, there would be more absolute monarchies rather than the relatively prevalent form of elective monarchy (Ferelden, Orzammar and Kirkwall are all elective monarchies a la the Holy Roman Empire). Kings do not have absolute power since they have to answer to their lords and nobles who hold the real power in their nations.

[MisanthropePrime]

[quote]Xilizhra wrote...

This strikes me as a fantastically bad idea. Sure, the Wardens are imperfect, but I don't see why the various monarchies would do a better job with it, and the Right of Conscription has many uses (in fact, many of its uses--all, in fact, that I remember--involved saving those who were going to be killed unjustly).[/quote]
The bulk of the Wardens are in the Anderfels and are, in fact, concerned with the Anderfels. Despite being an international organization they have a relatively narrow and localized scope, are subject to corruption despite their lofty ideas, and are terribly inefficient. If they're going to be so myopic, why not devolve power to local governments?

[quote][quote]Furthermore, aside from sensing Darkspawn, undergoing the joining
doesn't confer any benefits (unless someone got a hand on Avernus'
research and had dispensation to use it, and even then, his power of
blood abilities weren't that useful) and it's not at all analogou to the joining.[/quote]
It makes you immune to the taint from their blood, which, realistically, is pretty damned important.
[/quote][/quote]
I fail to see how making people immune to the taint can be abused by the nobles like making golems could. Please read the full discussion for context, Xil.
(BTW, Scrolls of Lore says "hi".)

[Xilizhra]

The bulk of the Wardens are in the Anderfels and are, in fact, concerned with the Anderfels. Despite being an international organization they have a relatively narrow and localized scope, are subject to corruption despite their lofty ideas, and are terribly inefficient. If they're going to be so myopic, why not devolve power to local governments?

It seems like it might be a better operation to create more independent Warden chapters elsewhere, but they kind of have to be politically neutral to avoid getting caught up in things like the civil war as much as possible, and to be trusted in their conscriptions.

[MisanthropePrime]

Xilizhra wrote...

The bulk of the Wardens are in the Anderfels and are, in fact, concerned with the Anderfels. Despite being an international organization they have a relatively narrow and localized scope, are subject to corruption despite their lofty ideas, and are terribly inefficient. If they're going to be so myopic, why not devolve power to local governments?

It seems like it might be a better operation to create more independent Warden chapters elsewhere, but they kind of have to be politically neutral to avoid getting caught up in things like the civil war as much as possible, and to be trusted in their conscriptions.

But if they're broken up into individual chapters, where would they get their funding?

[Xilizhra]

MisanthropePrime wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The bulk of the Wardens are in the Anderfels and are, in fact, concerned with the Anderfels. Despite being an international organization they have a relatively narrow and localized scope, are subject to corruption despite their lofty ideas, and are terribly inefficient. If they're going to be so myopic, why not devolve power to local governments?

It seems like it might be a better operation to create more independent Warden chapters elsewhere, but they kind of have to be politically neutral to avoid getting caught up in things like the civil war as much as possible, and to be trusted in their conscriptions.

But if they're broken up into individual chapters, where would they get their funding?

More independent, not completely independent.

[MisanthropePrime]

Xilizhra wrote...

MisanthropePrime wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The bulk of the Wardens are in the Anderfels and are, in fact, concerned with the Anderfels. Despite being an international organization they have a relatively narrow and localized scope, are subject to corruption despite their lofty ideas, and are terribly inefficient. If they're going to be so myopic, why not devolve power to local governments?

It seems like it might be a better operation to create more independent Warden chapters elsewhere, but they kind of have to be politically neutral to avoid getting caught up in things like the civil war as much as possible, and to be trusted in their conscriptions.

But if they're broken up into individual chapters, where would they get their funding?

More independent, not completely independent.

So if they're:
Geographically isolated from the Wardens of the Anders
Culturally isolated from the Wardens of the Anders
Exclusively select locals to join their ranks
At the mercy of local lords and governors

What advantage do they have over a nationalized darkspawn fighting force at this point?

[Xilizhra]

MisanthropePrime wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

MisanthropePrime wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The bulk of the Wardens are in the Anderfels and are, in fact, concerned with the Anderfels. Despite being an international organization they have a relatively narrow and localized scope, are subject to corruption despite their lofty ideas, and are terribly inefficient. If they're going to be so myopic, why not devolve power to local governments?

It seems like it might be a better operation to create more independent Warden chapters elsewhere, but they kind of have to be politically neutral to avoid getting caught up in things like the civil war as much as possible, and to be trusted in their conscriptions.

But if they're broken up into individual chapters, where would they get their funding?

More independent, not completely independent.

So if they're:
Geographically isolated from the Wardens of the Anders
Culturally isolated from the Wardens of the Anders
Exclusively select locals to join their ranks
At the mercy of local lords and governors

What advantage do they have over a nationalized darkspawn fighting force at this point?

The idea is that they have enough operational influence to prevent too many Wardens from being hemhorraged to the Anderfels, but are ideally not at the mercy of anyone local.

Of course, it's possible that this is unnecessary or a bad idea. It depends on whether the Anderfels situation is a serious flaw in their operational efficiency.

[LobselVith8]

Xilizhra wrote...

The idea is that they have enough operational influence to prevent too many Wardens from being hemhorraged to the Anderfels, but are ideally not at the mercy of anyone local.

Of course, it's possible that this is unnecessary or a bad idea. It depends on whether the Anderfels situation is a serious flaw in their operational efficiency. 

WoT reads that the First Warden is mostly a figurehead, so it's hard to say at this point. I suspect the Inquisitor will get to see the Anderfels situation in Inquisition, where the First Warden might be vying for power over the throne of the Anderfels.

[MisanthropePrime]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The idea is that they have enough operational influence to prevent too many Wardens from being hemhorraged to the Anderfels, but are ideally not at the mercy of anyone local.

Of course, it's possible that this is unnecessary or a bad idea. It depends on whether the Anderfels situation is a serious flaw in their operational efficiency. 

WoT reads that the First Warden is mostly a figurehead, so it's hard to say at this point. I suspect the Inquisitor will get to see the Anderfels situation in Inquisition, where the First Warden might be vying for power over the throne of the Anderfels.

Figurehead how? Figurehead in the Wardens? Yeah. Figurehead in the Anderfels? Couldn't be farther from the truth. I got the impression he's a figurehead in the Wardens because his attention is focused on the Anderfels.