It would be so much easier if everything was dictated by the Qun...
Should the Grey Wardens be disbanded?
Débuté par
MisanthropePrime
, oct. 22 2013 08:48
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#102
Posté 23 octobre 2013 - 01:44
MisanthropePrime
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To be fair they have widespread brainwashing technology to help make things easier, too. All the benefits of blood magic without the risk of demon possession.michalooo wrote...
It would be so much easier if everything was dictated by the Qun...
#103
Posté 23 octobre 2013 - 01:58
LobselVith8
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MisanthropePrime wrote...
LobselVith8 wrote...
Xilizhra wrote...
The idea is that they have enough operational influence to prevent too many Wardens from being hemhorraged to the Anderfels, but are ideally not at the mercy of anyone local.
Of course, it's possible that this is unnecessary or a bad idea. It depends on whether the Anderfels situation is a serious flaw in their operational efficiency.
WoT reads that the First Warden is mostly a figurehead, so it's hard to say at this point. I suspect the Inquisitor will get to see the Anderfels situation in Inquisition, where the First Warden might be vying for power over the throne of the Anderfels.
Figurehead how? Figurehead in the Wardens? Yeah. Figurehead in the Anderfels? Couldn't be farther from the truth. I got the impression he's a figurehead in the Wardens because his attention is focused on the Anderfels.
I meant the Wardens across Thedas, outside of the Anderfels, since Xil brought up the Wardens as a whole. I recall Riordian's remarks about the First Warden, and Mistress Woolsey's remark about how the First Warden was interested in Amaranthine establishing a precedent.
#104
Posté 23 octobre 2013 - 02:41
Shadow of Light Dragon
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[quote]MisanthropePrime wrote...
A discussion in another on the Dragon Age subreddit started me off on a tangent: does the world need the Grey Wardens as an institution?[/quote]
This all depends on what that institution does. I contend we don't know everything the Wardens do, particularly outside of Blights.
[quote]Think about the Grey Wardens' job: we think of them as heroes, as soldiers, but really, their job is disaster control, and they have an absolute monopoly on responding to that disaster.[/quote]
See above. I disagree that they have a monopoly on response, as there is sufficient historical evidence the Wardens need the assistance of other organisations to fight the darkspawn -- they even have contracts to that effect as seen in DA:O.
The Wardens have a monopoly on being able to kill the archdemons, thus ending Blights, but not a monopoly on fighting darkspawn even despite their immunity to the Taint.
[quote]Imagine a world in which one and only one organization was allowed to respond to areas hit by hurricanes, earthquakes, or something more infrequent and devastating like volcanic eruptions. Imagine if something happened to them- something like Ostagar, but in the real world. The Warden and Alistair pulled a million-to-one chance at defeating the Archdemon in Denerim, but do you think the rest of the world should gamble with the lives of their citizens in such a manner?[/quote]
Not an entirely fair comparison -- although you should be aware that in some parts of the world organisations work precisely as you describe. Recently there was a terrible train crash in my state. Rural doctors and medics in the area were turned away as people lay dying on the scene, all because they weren't from the official hospital who'd been lumped with the responsibility.
As far as the Wardens are concerned, to kill an archdemon you have to go through the Joining. The Joining has a couple of nasty side effects to those who actually survive it, including near-sterility, so I think we can agree that making everyone a Warden would be monumentally stupid. Sure, you'd have a better chance of killing the archdemon with more Wardens (that's why Duncan was recruiting!), but you'd be coming that much closer to wiping out your own species in the process.
[quote]The Grey Wardens also harbor maleficarum like Avernus and Anders, men who would not have been able to do their horrific deeds had they not been protected by the wardens and given their resources. Having so few men defending the world from a nigh-apocalyptic threat leaves such a wide avenue for abuse it's almost comical.[/quote]
Every institution has its criminal element. The Wardens are hardly unique, though of course they have the luxury of arguing that no deed is too dark (or stupid) to battle the Blight.
[quote]Let's also remember the right of conscription, a rather terrible prospect. As far as I know, no nations in Thedas have compulsory military service, but the Wardens can waltz in, supersede local authority, pardon convicted murderers and blood mages, and force them to join their ranks. The United States has gone to war for less.[/quote]
*snerk* No comment on the glowing reputation of the US, but you're wrong about Thedas. Look at the qunari. They have compulsory everything service. I wouldn't bet on conscription not existing elsewhere, either, especially during wartime.
[quote]And let's remember that for all the heroes like Duncan, the PC and Riordan, the bulk of the Wardens at Weisshaupt are not heroes, but politicians. Their control of the Anderfels makes them a military dictatorship, and Mistress Woolsey in Awakening does not hide the fact that the First Warden is jockeying for more power abroad, as well. This tendency towards Anders Grey Wardens to put politics over lifesaving is just another reason why the Wardens should be abolished: the heroic individuals were often able to best serve the people from the geographic area they were most familiar with, after all.[/quote]
They might be doing a good job at ruling. *shrug*
[quote]If the anti-blight techniques used by the Wardens were instead turned over to the civilian governments of Thedas and in turn incorporated into specialized blight-fighting military units, the Wardens would be rendered obsolete. And, obviously, the wardens in Weisshaupt know this, which is why they operate with such secrecy. The Joining ritual, as I once argued, is entirely inefficient (why maintain a force of tainted soldiers whose life expectancy is shortened by decades, when you could simply rapidly administer the joining when a blight actually occurs?[/quote]
How can you tell there's a Blight unless the archdemon appears? DA:O was pretty big on the point that so few people believed a Blight was happening, even though the Wardens were sure of it.
Having a standing force of Wardens was important for a few reasons:
1. They could tell when an Archdemon awakens.
2. They could do reconnaissance in the Deep Roads and answer darkspawn threats without having to worry about becoming infected.
3. If they had a standing force spread out across the world, they would always be ready wherever the darkspawn appeared. Thedas doesn't exactly have a mass transit system for getting from Denerim to Minrathous in a hurry.
[quote]You'd have the exact same mortality rate but at the very least prevent unnecessary loss of life in peacetime), but it's maintained because the Wardens operate extremely similarly to a cult: drugging their initiates, preventing them from contacting their families, controlling their sex lives, forcing them to uproot and live with other cultists... and remember that governments allow the Wardens to basically kidnap whoever they want and force them into this lifestyle.[/quote]
Controlling their sex lives--what? XD I also think you're putting too much emphasis on the Right of Conscription. You seem to be under the impression the Wardens used this whenever they wanted, but you can't forget the Wardens rely entirely on local tithes. If they lose the goodwill of the country they're in they get kicked out! So they can't ****** people off by forcing people into service all that often.
You're also forgetting that some people choose to join, and others join because they are infected by the Taint and the Joining can effectively save them.
[quote]Now, I understand that at the time the Wardens were created, there was only really one nation-state (Tevinter) and it was doing poorly. There was barely any national government, and so its drastic measures (and the entitlements given to them) made sense at the time. But Thedosian society has evolved in leaps and bounds since then, and almost every nation has a well trained and equipped fighting force of their own. Who's to say a few Ash Warriors or Chevaliers can't kick back an archdemon blood cocktail and do the Warden's job without the secrecy and centralization?[/quote]
At this point I wish we could point to some statistics as to just how high the Warden-to-Death ratio is on Joinings. If it was as easy as grabbing a few Ash Warriors out of the army, why do you think Duncan didn't do this when he was at Ostagar? He was desperate for recruits.
And then, if there is no secrecy and you told people that the Joining meant they'd die young, be doomed to walk into the Deep Roads if they lived long enough, and have to die (if not sacrifice your very soul) in order to kill the archdemon, what if everyone said 'no' to the Joining? Would you then use that pesky, morally repugnant Right of Conscription?
[quote]We have a rosy outlook on the Wardens because we played one in Origins, and the ones we saw in Origins are implied to be very different from the bulk of the organization. And even the Warden Commander of Ferelden frequently bucked protocol, in a way showing how inefficient the Wardens as an organization truly are.[/quote]
Still don't know enough about it. DA:O was largely separate to the Warden organisation, because you're divorced from its authority and working on your own initiative. DA2 was especially vague.
[quote]TLDR version: The Wardens as an organization are terribly inefficient when it comes to their duty. The bulk of the organization is only concerned with self perpetuation and strengthening its power base. It engages in deplorable practices that ruin lives and place society at risk. National governments and militaries, with access to the Wardens' proprietary technology and training, could do their job far more efficiently with fewer rights violations.
[/quote]
TLDR2: We need more first-hand information on the organisation to make that kind of judgement call on the Wardens as an organisation. This whole argument is like basing the whole of the Tevinter Imperium on the testimony of Fenris and the few Tevinters we've run into outside of the country -- almost all of whom have been eeeevil or slaves.
A discussion in another on the Dragon Age subreddit started me off on a tangent: does the world need the Grey Wardens as an institution?[/quote]
This all depends on what that institution does. I contend we don't know everything the Wardens do, particularly outside of Blights.
[quote]Think about the Grey Wardens' job: we think of them as heroes, as soldiers, but really, their job is disaster control, and they have an absolute monopoly on responding to that disaster.[/quote]
See above. I disagree that they have a monopoly on response, as there is sufficient historical evidence the Wardens need the assistance of other organisations to fight the darkspawn -- they even have contracts to that effect as seen in DA:O.
The Wardens have a monopoly on being able to kill the archdemons, thus ending Blights, but not a monopoly on fighting darkspawn even despite their immunity to the Taint.
[quote]Imagine a world in which one and only one organization was allowed to respond to areas hit by hurricanes, earthquakes, or something more infrequent and devastating like volcanic eruptions. Imagine if something happened to them- something like Ostagar, but in the real world. The Warden and Alistair pulled a million-to-one chance at defeating the Archdemon in Denerim, but do you think the rest of the world should gamble with the lives of their citizens in such a manner?[/quote]
Not an entirely fair comparison -- although you should be aware that in some parts of the world organisations work precisely as you describe. Recently there was a terrible train crash in my state. Rural doctors and medics in the area were turned away as people lay dying on the scene, all because they weren't from the official hospital who'd been lumped with the responsibility.
As far as the Wardens are concerned, to kill an archdemon you have to go through the Joining. The Joining has a couple of nasty side effects to those who actually survive it, including near-sterility, so I think we can agree that making everyone a Warden would be monumentally stupid. Sure, you'd have a better chance of killing the archdemon with more Wardens (that's why Duncan was recruiting!), but you'd be coming that much closer to wiping out your own species in the process.
[quote]The Grey Wardens also harbor maleficarum like Avernus and Anders, men who would not have been able to do their horrific deeds had they not been protected by the wardens and given their resources. Having so few men defending the world from a nigh-apocalyptic threat leaves such a wide avenue for abuse it's almost comical.[/quote]
Every institution has its criminal element. The Wardens are hardly unique, though of course they have the luxury of arguing that no deed is too dark (or stupid) to battle the Blight.
[quote]Let's also remember the right of conscription, a rather terrible prospect. As far as I know, no nations in Thedas have compulsory military service, but the Wardens can waltz in, supersede local authority, pardon convicted murderers and blood mages, and force them to join their ranks. The United States has gone to war for less.[/quote]
*snerk* No comment on the glowing reputation of the US, but you're wrong about Thedas. Look at the qunari. They have compulsory everything service. I wouldn't bet on conscription not existing elsewhere, either, especially during wartime.
[quote]And let's remember that for all the heroes like Duncan, the PC and Riordan, the bulk of the Wardens at Weisshaupt are not heroes, but politicians. Their control of the Anderfels makes them a military dictatorship, and Mistress Woolsey in Awakening does not hide the fact that the First Warden is jockeying for more power abroad, as well. This tendency towards Anders Grey Wardens to put politics over lifesaving is just another reason why the Wardens should be abolished: the heroic individuals were often able to best serve the people from the geographic area they were most familiar with, after all.[/quote]
They might be doing a good job at ruling. *shrug*
[quote]If the anti-blight techniques used by the Wardens were instead turned over to the civilian governments of Thedas and in turn incorporated into specialized blight-fighting military units, the Wardens would be rendered obsolete. And, obviously, the wardens in Weisshaupt know this, which is why they operate with such secrecy. The Joining ritual, as I once argued, is entirely inefficient (why maintain a force of tainted soldiers whose life expectancy is shortened by decades, when you could simply rapidly administer the joining when a blight actually occurs?[/quote]
How can you tell there's a Blight unless the archdemon appears? DA:O was pretty big on the point that so few people believed a Blight was happening, even though the Wardens were sure of it.
Having a standing force of Wardens was important for a few reasons:
1. They could tell when an Archdemon awakens.
2. They could do reconnaissance in the Deep Roads and answer darkspawn threats without having to worry about becoming infected.
3. If they had a standing force spread out across the world, they would always be ready wherever the darkspawn appeared. Thedas doesn't exactly have a mass transit system for getting from Denerim to Minrathous in a hurry.
[quote]You'd have the exact same mortality rate but at the very least prevent unnecessary loss of life in peacetime), but it's maintained because the Wardens operate extremely similarly to a cult: drugging their initiates, preventing them from contacting their families, controlling their sex lives, forcing them to uproot and live with other cultists... and remember that governments allow the Wardens to basically kidnap whoever they want and force them into this lifestyle.[/quote]
Controlling their sex lives--what? XD I also think you're putting too much emphasis on the Right of Conscription. You seem to be under the impression the Wardens used this whenever they wanted, but you can't forget the Wardens rely entirely on local tithes. If they lose the goodwill of the country they're in they get kicked out! So they can't ****** people off by forcing people into service all that often.
You're also forgetting that some people choose to join, and others join because they are infected by the Taint and the Joining can effectively save them.
[quote]Now, I understand that at the time the Wardens were created, there was only really one nation-state (Tevinter) and it was doing poorly. There was barely any national government, and so its drastic measures (and the entitlements given to them) made sense at the time. But Thedosian society has evolved in leaps and bounds since then, and almost every nation has a well trained and equipped fighting force of their own. Who's to say a few Ash Warriors or Chevaliers can't kick back an archdemon blood cocktail and do the Warden's job without the secrecy and centralization?[/quote]
At this point I wish we could point to some statistics as to just how high the Warden-to-Death ratio is on Joinings. If it was as easy as grabbing a few Ash Warriors out of the army, why do you think Duncan didn't do this when he was at Ostagar? He was desperate for recruits.
And then, if there is no secrecy and you told people that the Joining meant they'd die young, be doomed to walk into the Deep Roads if they lived long enough, and have to die (if not sacrifice your very soul) in order to kill the archdemon, what if everyone said 'no' to the Joining? Would you then use that pesky, morally repugnant Right of Conscription?
[quote]We have a rosy outlook on the Wardens because we played one in Origins, and the ones we saw in Origins are implied to be very different from the bulk of the organization. And even the Warden Commander of Ferelden frequently bucked protocol, in a way showing how inefficient the Wardens as an organization truly are.[/quote]
Still don't know enough about it. DA:O was largely separate to the Warden organisation, because you're divorced from its authority and working on your own initiative. DA2 was especially vague.
[quote]TLDR version: The Wardens as an organization are terribly inefficient when it comes to their duty. The bulk of the organization is only concerned with self perpetuation and strengthening its power base. It engages in deplorable practices that ruin lives and place society at risk. National governments and militaries, with access to the Wardens' proprietary technology and training, could do their job far more efficiently with fewer rights violations.
[/quote]
TLDR2: We need more first-hand information on the organisation to make that kind of judgement call on the Wardens as an organisation. This whole argument is like basing the whole of the Tevinter Imperium on the testimony of Fenris and the few Tevinters we've run into outside of the country -- almost all of whom have been eeeevil or slaves.
#105
Posté 23 octobre 2013 - 02:55
Bayonet Hipshot
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Grey Wardens = Legion of the Dead - Joining.
They fight the things that must be fought.
Until Darkspawn exist, they must and will exist.
Even if they Darkspawn are gone, they can be a powerful and very capable guild.
They fight the things that must be fought.
Until Darkspawn exist, they must and will exist.
Even if they Darkspawn are gone, they can be a powerful and very capable guild.
#106
Posté 23 octobre 2013 - 03:17
AresKeith
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The Sin wrote...
Grey Wardens = Legion of the Dead - Joining.
They fight the things that must be fought.
Until Darkspawn exist, they must and will exist.
Even if they Darkspawn are gone, they can be a powerful and very capable guild.
Minus the taint hopefully, they'll probably becomes a full clone of the Witchers
#107
Posté 23 octobre 2013 - 03:19
Br3admax
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Yeah, except Witchers get to live really long. Sucks to be a Grey Warden in that aspect. Which is better, longevity or fame?
#108
Posté 23 octobre 2013 - 03:44
Star fury
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Is OP going to answer my questions? Or just ignore them because it refutes his theory?
Loghain not only didn't cooperate with Orlais empress, he jailed Orlesian Wardens. He fought Ferelden bans in a civil war during the Blight. Elves and dwarves didn't give a damn about humans during the Blight. And all that was in ONE country. Only Grey Wardens united the kingdom. It highlights how great would be cooperation between kingdoms during Blights without Wardens.
I love how somebody projects modern views about rights' violation, "national governments", "militaries" LMAO when all that doesn't exist in feudal Thedas with it's monarchies, vassals, feudal levies.
Loghain not only didn't cooperate with Orlais empress, he jailed Orlesian Wardens. He fought Ferelden bans in a civil war during the Blight. Elves and dwarves didn't give a damn about humans during the Blight. And all that was in ONE country. Only Grey Wardens united the kingdom. It highlights how great would be cooperation between kingdoms during Blights without Wardens.
I love how somebody projects modern views about rights' violation, "national governments", "militaries" LMAO when all that doesn't exist in feudal Thedas with it's monarchies, vassals, feudal levies.
Modifié par Star fury, 23 octobre 2013 - 03:48 .
#109
Posté 23 octobre 2013 - 03:56
MisanthropePrime
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Can you say the "grey wardens united the kingdom" when the only way they were able to do so was by violating many of their tenets (such as "don't get into politics")?Loghain not only didn't cooperate with Orlais empress, he jailed Orlesian Wardens. He fought Ferelden bans in a civil war during the Blight. Elves and dwarves didn't give a damn about humans during the Blight. And all that was in ONE country. Only Grey Wardens united the kingdom. It highlights how great would be cooperation between kingdoms during Blights without Wardens.
The majority of Thedas is NOT Feudal. The majority of Thedas are cohesive nation-states with strong central governments. Ferelden is the only state proven to be feudal, and it is also unique in being an elective monarchy a la the Holy Roman Empire. Orlais, Orzammar, Tevinter, Antiva and the individual city-states of the Free Marches are definitely not Feudal. The Jury is out on the Anderfels, Nevarra and Rivain.I love how somebody projects modern views about rights' violation, "national governments", "militaries" LMAO when all that doesn't exist in feudal Thedas with it's monarchies, vassals, feudal levies.
Furthermore, my basis for the statement that the concept of human rights existing in Ferdelden is derived from the reaction the Landsmeet has towards Loghain selling elves into slavery, and the fact that Ferelden society recognises the rights of freeholders and bases their national identity on it. Fereldans vehemently reject serfdom, and slavery, which shows there is a support for human rights in the nation.
To illustrate that there is a notion of a nation state, look no further than the fact I can even speak about a "Fereldan culture". You have many people, including non-citizens of Ferelden like Leliana and Riordan, identifying as Fereldan. If there was not a nation-state, these people would identify themselves by their region: "Highever" or "Gwarren" rather than "Ferelden".
Modifié par MisanthropePrime, 23 octobre 2013 - 03:56 .
#110
Posté 23 octobre 2013 - 04:13
Jedi Master of Orion
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OP, I think you're wrong to infer that the "bulk" of the order is mostly interested in increasing their own powerbase. Even in the Anderfels I think that isn't true. The First Warden specifically is more interesting in becoming richer and more powerful but in practice most of the rest of the order doesn't answer to him directly anymore. In fact it's even stated many wardens are unhappy with the First Warden's behavior. I think I heard or read somewhere there was supposed to be thousands of them there. And wardens in other regions of Thedas are organized and commanded by Warden-Commanders that don't seem to share the First Warden's style of corruption and are still determined to be viligant against darkspawn.
Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 23 octobre 2013 - 04:14 .
#111
Posté 23 octobre 2013 - 04:15
Star fury
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MisanthropePrime wrote...
Can you say the "grey wardens united the kingdom" when the only way they were able to do so was by violating many of their tenets (such as "don't get into politics")?
It's not important. They did unite Ferelden. And all infighting and bickering in ONE kingdom shows that your idea of "cooperation" between countries during Blights without Grey Wardens is utterly unrealistic. Not to mention rivalry, xenophoby, plain hate between different countries in Loghain case.
MisanthropePrime wrote...
The majority of Thedas is NOT Feudal. The majority of Thedas are cohesive nation-states with strong central governments. Ferelden is the only state proven to be feudal, and it is also unique in being an elective monarchy a la the Holy Roman Empire. Orlais, Orzammar, Tevinter, Antiva and the individual city-states of the Free Marches are definitely not Feudal. The Jury is out on the Anderfels, Nevarra and Rivain.
Furthermore, my basis for the statement that the concept of human rights existing in Ferdelden is derived from the reaction the Landsmeet has towards Loghain selling elves into slavery, and the fact that Ferelden society recognises the rights of freeholders and bases their national identity on it. Fereldans vehemently reject serfdom, and slavery, which shows there is a support for human rights in the nation.
To illustrate that there is a notion of a nation state, look no further than the fact I can even speak about a "Fereldan culture". You have many people, including non-citizens of Ferelden like Leliana and Riordan, identifying as Fereldan. If there was not a nation-state, these people would identify themselves by their region: "Highever" or "Gwarren" rather than "Ferelden".
There are no "nation-states with strong central government" in Thedas. Ferelden, Orlais, Antiva, Kirkwall, Orzammar are all typical feudal kingdoms or city-states.
Ferelden is NOT an elective monarchy, the Landsmeet only chose a king because current dynasty ended.
Modifié par Star fury, 23 octobre 2013 - 04:25 .
#112
Posté 23 octobre 2013 - 04:21
MisanthropePrime
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Orlais is not a feudal kingdom- it abolished its nobility and the Empress has significant sway. Kirkwall and Orzammar do not have the land area for feudalism (do you even know what feudalism is?). Antiva is a plutocracy: the official rulers of the government are literally those with the most money (though secretly the crows pull the strings).
Ferelden is absolutely an elective monarchy. The landsmeet has to elect every king, it's just that they have historically elected a monarch from Calenhad's bloodline. Supposedly the bloodline was uninterrupted until the Orlesian invasion, and yet in the Steel Age, Queen Fionne had to be approved by the Bannorn before she ascended to the throne, despite being of the Theirin bloodline.[/quote]
Ferelden is absolutely an elective monarchy. The landsmeet has to elect every king, it's just that they have historically elected a monarch from Calenhad's bloodline. Supposedly the bloodline was uninterrupted until the Orlesian invasion, and yet in the Steel Age, Queen Fionne had to be approved by the Bannorn before she ascended to the throne, despite being of the Theirin bloodline.[/quote]
Modifié par MisanthropePrime, 23 octobre 2013 - 04:22 .
#113
Posté 23 octobre 2013 - 04:28
Reaverwind
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MisanthropePrime wrote...
Orlais is not a feudal kingdom- it abolished its nobility and the Empress has significant sway.
Say what? The aristocracy is very much a part of Orlesian society. Who exactly did you think the Chevaliers are?
#114
Posté 23 octobre 2013 - 04:32
MisanthropePrime
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There's a difference between aristocracy, nobility and gentry. Officially Orlais has abandoned all noble titles except for Lord, Lady, Emperor and Empress, though some unofficially buck the trend and refer to themselves as "barons" or "dukes" (like Prosper)- these have no real standing.Reaverwind wrote...
MisanthropePrime wrote...
Orlais is not a feudal kingdom- it abolished its nobility and the Empress has significant sway.
Say what? The aristocracy is very much a part of Orlesian society. Who exactly did you think the Chevaliers are?
A feudal society has a variety of ranks of nobility who swear fealty to the nobles above them and get their land from them. Orlais has a central government authority, the Council of Heralds, who dole out land to lords and ladies and they answer directly to the Council and Empress.
#115
Posté 23 octobre 2013 - 04:38
Reaverwind
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MisanthropePrime wrote...
There's a difference between aristocracy, nobility and gentry. Officially Orlais has abandoned all noble titles except for Lord, Lady, Emperor and Empress, though some unofficially buck the trend and refer to themselves as "barons" or "dukes" (like Prosper)- these have no real standing.Reaverwind wrote...
MisanthropePrime wrote...
Orlais is not a feudal kingdom- it abolished its nobility and the Empress has significant sway.
Say what? The aristocracy is very much a part of Orlesian society. Who exactly did you think the Chevaliers are?
No. Aristocracy and nobility are the same thing. Consult any dictionary of your choice. Abandoning the titles is not the same thing as abolishing the class, and besides, that occurred in Drakon's time, and clearly didn't stick.
#116
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Posté 23 octobre 2013 - 04:39
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MisanthropePrime wrote...
A discussion in another on the Dragon Age subreddit started me off on a tangent: does the world need the Grey Wardens as an institution?
Think about the Grey Wardens' job: we think of them as heroes, as soldiers, but really, their job is disaster control, and they have an absolute monopoly on responding to that disaster.
Imagine a world in which one and only one organization was allowed to respond to areas hit by hurricanes, earthquakes, or something more infrequent and devastating like volcanic eruptions. Imagine if something happened to them- something like Ostagar, but in the real world. The Warden and Alistair pulled a million-to-one chance at defeating the Archdemon in Denerim, but do you think the rest of the world should gamble with the lives of their citizens in such a manner?
This, more or less, kills your argument. In our real life, humans can respond to disasters; all of us have the potential to do so. But in the Dragon Age world, only the Wardens have the ability to fight the hordes of Darkspawn at maximum efficiency. Not counting party members the Warden has who have plot armor against the Blight, anything that comes in contact with Darkspawn blood becomes tainted; it's a plague, almost like a zombie virus of sorts. You get corrupted, your body withers, you're driven insane, and you begin to serve the Darkspawn. The Wardens possess an immunity to this no other soldier has. The Archdemon, when slain, transfers its soul out of its own body into another Darkspawn, thus continuing the Blight; the Wardens, possessing Darkspawn blood, are meant to take that spirit and accept death from it, a suicidal method of slaying the Archdemon. It's a Warden's final duty. Other groups simply can't respond to the Blight in the same manner the Wardens do; it's why specialized crews are sent in in areas of radioactive or chemical disasters. Hazmat teams and the like are equipped to survive in conditions and disaster areas where normal individuals can't. If you sent normal Red Cross workers into a highly-irradiated area without protection, things obviously wouldn't go well. Much the same, the Wardens are "equipped" with Blight immunity, so to speak.
The Grey Wardens also harbor maleficarum like Avernus and Anders, men who would not have been able to do their horrific deeds had they not been protected by the wardens and given their resources. Having so few men defending the world from a nigh-apocalyptic threat leaves such a wide avenue for abuse it's almost comical.
Not all "maleficarum" do horrible deeds. Morrigan certainly didn't in DA:O, nor did Anders. There are plenty of non-Warden maleficarum, and the Wardens don't simply accept bat****-crazy individuals into their ranks freely. Some bad individuals are part of the Wardens, yeah, but not all of their mages are evil.
Let's also remember the right of conscription, a rather terrible prospect. As far as I know, no nations in Thedas have compulsory military service, but the Wardens can waltz in, supersede local authority, pardon convicted murderers and blood mages, and force them to join their ranks. The United States has gone to war for less.
It'd be safe to assume the nations of Thedas do have conscription and levies in times of war. The Wardens are allowed to do in order to circumvent an entire populace from being wiped out by an Archdemon, and for individuals like Sten, it serves as atonements. I wouldn't honeslty care if a thief or mage was let out under Warden supervision if it meant keeping a giant ****ing dragon from slaughtering me and everyone I knew. Desperate times call for desperate measures; it's much like real-life Penal Battalions.
And let's remember that for all the heroes like Duncan, the PC and Riordan, the bulk of the Wardens at Weisshaupt are not heroes, but politicians. Their control of the Anderfels makes them a military dictatorship, and Mistress Woolsey in Awakening does not hide the fact that the First Warden is jockeying for more power abroad, as well. This tendency towards Anders Grey Wardens to put politics over lifesaving is just another reason why the Wardens should be abolished: the heroic individuals were often able to best serve the people from the geographic area they were most familiar with, after all.
Indeed, after many years, the Wardens are becoming more corrupt and inept, much like Duncan warned.
If the anti-blight techniques used by the Wardens were instead turned over to the civilian governments of Thedas and in turn incorporated into specialized blight-fighting military units, the Wardens would be rendered obsolete. And, obviously, the wardens in Weisshaupt know this, which is why they operate with such secrecy. The Joining ritual, as I once argued, is entirely inefficient (why maintain a force of tainted soldiers whose life expectancy is shortened by decades, when you could simply rapidly administer the joining when a blight actually occurs? You'd have the exact same mortality rate but at the very least prevent unnecessary loss of life in peacetime), but it's maintained because the Wardens operate extremely similarly to a cult: drugging their initiates, preventing them from contacting their families, controlling their sex lives, forcing them to uproot and live with other cultists... and remember that governments allow the Wardens to basically kidnap whoever they want and force them into this lifestyle.
It's not so easy to simply raise vast amounts of Wardens. Wardens are specially-trained and specially-equipped; yes, you could take the Joining and distribute it to common soldiers, but could you honestly train them fast enough to tackle a Blight? Even the Wardens at Ostagar, with months or years of training, were overwhelmed rapidly. Raising an army of 10,000 militia and common soldiers via the Joining to combat hundreds of thousands of Darkspawn, whilst said soldiers and militia have little comparable training, would lead to horrific death, not to mention all the soldiers you'd lose to the Joining itself.
pquote]Now, I understand that at the time the Wardens were created, there was only really one nation-state (Tevinter) and it was doing poorly. There was barely any national government, and so its drastic measures (and the entitlements given to them) made sense at the time. But Thedosian society has evolved in leaps and bounds since then, and almost every nation has a well trained and equipped fighting force of their own. Who's to say a few Ash Warriors or Chevaliers can't kick back an archdemon blood cocktail and do the Warden's job without the secrecy and centralization?
Then what's the difference? Have several small groups like the Wardens be formed, have them take on the same eventual corruption and ineptitude? I do believe a few more groups would suffice to tackle the Blight, yeah, but disbanding the Wardens, the "grandfather" of all counter-Blight measures, isn't the way to go. The Wardens are like special forces; sent in to tackle specific challenges. We don't rely on one sole group of special forces units in our world, so why should we only rely on one in Dragon Age? Have several, Wardens included.
We have a rosy outlook on the Wardens because we played one in Origins, and the ones we saw in Origins are implied to be very different from the bulk of the organization. And even the Warden Commander of Ferelden frequently bucked protocol, in a way showing how inefficient the Wardens as an organization truly are.
The Warden-Commander of Ferelden also ended the Blight more quickly than any other Blight in history, sparing numerous lives and dealing a huge defeat to the Darkspawn hordes; playing your cards right, the Warden accomplishes a great deal more of good.
Bulking protocol doesn't equal a bad or inept character. Sometimes it's the best thing to do when you're dealing with corrupted or unstable governments like Orlais or Ferelden. Orlais is already heading towards civil war, Ferelden was in the middle of civil war when the Blight hit; do you really want to give groups like Chevaliers Warden-level authority to be abused by their governments? At least the Wardens don't answer to any one government.
TLDR version: The Wardens as an organization are terribly inefficient when it comes to their duty. The bulk of the organization is only concerned with self perpetuation and strengthening its power base. It engages in deplorable practices that ruin lives and place society at risk. National governments and militaries, with access to the Wardens' proprietary technology and training, could do their job far more efficiently with fewer rights violations.
They've stopped every Blight thus far. Yeah, they've done some wrong things, but Dumat didn't end up wiping out the entire Human, Elven, or Dwarven races, nor did any Archdemon afterward. The Wardens have stopped civil wars, re-united countries, and saved the free people of Thedas from extinction five times now. No one had any clue what to do when Dumat arrived; imagine if the Wardens hadn't been around. Every Blight would've went exactly like the First. For that matter, there would've probably only been one Blight to begin with, and Origins would take place in the midst of a Blighted wasteland ruled by Dumat and the Darkspawn. But it didn't. You can thank the Wardens for that.
Modifié par Foshizzlin, 23 octobre 2013 - 04:42 .
#117
Posté 23 octobre 2013 - 04:42
MisanthropePrime
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No, they're not synonymous. Nobles are explicitly aristocrats who have titles. In Orlais, they don't have titles. Therefore, they have an aristocracy, but no nobility.Reaverwind wrote...
MisanthropePrime wrote...
There's a difference between aristocracy, nobility and gentry. Officially Orlais has abandoned all noble titles except for Lord, Lady, Emperor and Empress, though some unofficially buck the trend and refer to themselves as "barons" or "dukes" (like Prosper)- these have no real standing.Reaverwind wrote...
MisanthropePrime wrote...
Orlais is not a feudal kingdom- it abolished its nobility and the Empress has significant sway.
Say what? The aristocracy is very much a part of Orlesian society. Who exactly did you think the Chevaliers are?
No. Aristocracy and nobility are the same thing. Consult any dictionary of your choice. Abandoning the titles is not the same thing as abolishing the class, and besides, that occurred in Drakon's time, and clearly didn't stick.
Furthermore, it "stuck" because Orlais is no longer feudal. Before Drakon's time, it was: they had barons and dukes and I think marquises, but the government was restructued to only have the aristocracy, Emperor and the Council of Heralds. It's a far more centralized system than feudalism and it distinctly does not resemble nobility.
#118
Posté 23 octobre 2013 - 04:47
Reaverwind
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MisanthropePrime wrote...
No, they're not synonymous. Nobles are explicitly aristocrats who have titles. In Orlais, they don't have titles. Therefore, they have an aristocracy, but no nobility.Reaverwind wrote...
MisanthropePrime wrote...
There's a difference between aristocracy, nobility and gentry. Officially Orlais has abandoned all noble titles except for Lord, Lady, Emperor and Empress, though some unofficially buck the trend and refer to themselves as "barons" or "dukes" (like Prosper)- these have no real standing.Reaverwind wrote...
MisanthropePrime wrote...
Orlais is not a feudal kingdom- it abolished its nobility and the Empress has significant sway.
Say what? The aristocracy is very much a part of Orlesian society. Who exactly did you think the Chevaliers are?
No. Aristocracy and nobility are the same thing. Consult any dictionary of your choice. Abandoning the titles is not the same thing as abolishing the class, and besides, that occurred in Drakon's time, and clearly didn't stick.
Furthermore, it "stuck" because Orlais is no longer feudal. Before Drakon's time, it was: they had barons and dukes and I think marquises, but the government was restructued to only have the aristocracy, Emperor and the Council of Heralds. It's a far more centralized system than feudalism and it distinctly does not resemble nobility.
Titles are still very much in use - next time consult the wiki before making absurd claims.
#119
Posté 23 octobre 2013 - 04:52
MisanthropePrime
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I did. http://dragonage.wik...ty_and_nobilityReaverwind wrote...
MisanthropePrime wrote...
No, they're not synonymous. Nobles are explicitly aristocrats who have titles. In Orlais, they don't have titles. Therefore, they have an aristocracy, but no nobility.Reaverwind wrote...
MisanthropePrime wrote...
There's a difference between aristocracy, nobility and gentry. Officially Orlais has abandoned all noble titles except for Lord, Lady, Emperor and Empress, though some unofficially buck the trend and refer to themselves as "barons" or "dukes" (like Prosper)- these have no real standing.Reaverwind wrote...
MisanthropePrime wrote...
Orlais is not a feudal kingdom- it abolished its nobility and the Empress has significant sway.
Say what? The aristocracy is very much a part of Orlesian society. Who exactly did you think the Chevaliers are?
No. Aristocracy and nobility are the same thing. Consult any dictionary of your choice. Abandoning the titles is not the same thing as abolishing the class, and besides, that occurred in Drakon's time, and clearly didn't stick.
Furthermore, it "stuck" because Orlais is no longer feudal. Before Drakon's time, it was: they had barons and dukes and I think marquises, but the government was restructued to only have the aristocracy, Emperor and the Council of Heralds. It's a far more centralized system than feudalism and it distinctly does not resemble nobility.
Titles are still very much in use - next time consult the wiki before making absurd claims.
The titles are used only in an unofficial capacity and have no actual impact on the way in which the nation is governed.
#120
Posté 23 octobre 2013 - 04:55
His Name was HYR!!
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Hmm, this is actually not too bad, given your answer to the Archedemon/Blight issue on page-1.
Only thing: the Wardens also keep the Darkspawn occupied in the Deep Roads when a Blight is not taking place; you are removing a factor for Darkspawn population-control by disbanding the Wardens. Perhaps this makes the Blights more deadly.
Only thing: the Wardens also keep the Darkspawn occupied in the Deep Roads when a Blight is not taking place; you are removing a factor for Darkspawn population-control by disbanding the Wardens. Perhaps this makes the Blights more deadly.
#121
Posté 23 octobre 2013 - 05:01
Star fury
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[quote]MisanthropePrime wrote...
Orlais is not a feudal kingdom- it abolished its nobility and the Empress has significant sway. Kirkwall and Orzammar do not have the land area for feudalism (do you even know what feudalism is?). Antiva is a plutocracy: the official rulers of the government are literally those with the most money (though secretly the crows pull the strings).
Ferelden is absolutely an elective monarchy. The landsmeet has to elect every king, it's just that they have historically elected a monarch from Calenhad's bloodline. Supposedly the bloodline was uninterrupted until the Orlesian invasion, and yet in the Steel Age, Queen Fionne had to be approved by the Bannorn before she ascended to the throne, despite being of the Theirin bloodline.[/quote][/quote]
I recommend you to read the codex.
The Orlesian aristocracy is ancient and much given to competition. All the nobility play the Grand Game, as it is known, whether they wish to or not. It is a game of reputation and patronage, where moves are made with rumors and scandal is the chief weapon. No gentle game, this. More blood has been drawn as a result of the Grand Game than any war the Orlesians have fought. Of this, I am assured by almost every gentleman here.
I remember, as a child, watching a column of chevaliers parade down a wide avenue in Val Royeaux. Dashing knights on armored steeds, pennants snapping in the breeze. I have never forgotten.Most of the Orlesian aristocracy has ties to the chevaliers. Joining the knighthood and dedicating one's life to the empire is a tried and true method to improve one's social standing. It is the obvious choice for landless nobles and noble children not in line to inherit.
“Orlais presents a veneer of opulence, but the aristocracy are committed to a system of social one-upmanship they call the game. Sprawling receptions delight friend and foe, while bards strike from shadow with insinuation, larceny, and assassination, often to the strange delight of their targets. Control of these auteur agents is yet another layer of the game.
Orlais is not a feudal kingdom- it abolished its nobility and the Empress has significant sway. Kirkwall and Orzammar do not have the land area for feudalism (do you even know what feudalism is?). Antiva is a plutocracy: the official rulers of the government are literally those with the most money (though secretly the crows pull the strings).
Ferelden is absolutely an elective monarchy. The landsmeet has to elect every king, it's just that they have historically elected a monarch from Calenhad's bloodline. Supposedly the bloodline was uninterrupted until the Orlesian invasion, and yet in the Steel Age, Queen Fionne had to be approved by the Bannorn before she ascended to the throne, despite being of the Theirin bloodline.[/quote][/quote]
I recommend you to read the codex.
The Orlesian aristocracy is ancient and much given to competition. All the nobility play the Grand Game, as it is known, whether they wish to or not. It is a game of reputation and patronage, where moves are made with rumors and scandal is the chief weapon. No gentle game, this. More blood has been drawn as a result of the Grand Game than any war the Orlesians have fought. Of this, I am assured by almost every gentleman here.
I remember, as a child, watching a column of chevaliers parade down a wide avenue in Val Royeaux. Dashing knights on armored steeds, pennants snapping in the breeze. I have never forgotten.Most of the Orlesian aristocracy has ties to the chevaliers. Joining the knighthood and dedicating one's life to the empire is a tried and true method to improve one's social standing. It is the obvious choice for landless nobles and noble children not in line to inherit.
“Orlais presents a veneer of opulence, but the aristocracy are committed to a system of social one-upmanship they call the game. Sprawling receptions delight friend and foe, while bards strike from shadow with insinuation, larceny, and assassination, often to the strange delight of their targets. Control of these auteur agents is yet another layer of the game.
Modifié par Star fury, 23 octobre 2013 - 05:02 .
#122
Posté 23 octobre 2013 - 05:02
MisanthropePrime
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In the real world, though, there are various organizations that can equip their respondants with hazmat suits. Why should the wardens have a monopoly on hazmat suits? As it stands the deal they have with Thedas' nations is downright extortionate.This, more or less, kills your argument. In our real life, humans can respond to disasters; all of us have the potential to do so. But in the Dragon Age world, only the Wardens have the ability to fight the hordes of Darkspawn at maximum efficiency. Not counting party members the Warden has who have plot armor against the Blight, anything that comes in contact with Darkspawn blood becomes tainted; it's a plague, almost like a zombie virus of sorts. You get corrupted, your body withers, you're driven insane, and you begin to serve the Darkspawn. The Wardens possess an immunity to this no other soldier has. The Archdemon, when slain, transfers its soul out of its own body into another Darkspawn, thus continuing the Blight; the Wardens, possessing Darkspawn blood, are meant to take that spirit and accept death from it, a suicidal method of slaying the Archdemon. It's a Warden's final duty. Other groups simply can't respond to the Blight in the same manner the Wardens do; it's why specialized crews are sent in in areas of radioactive or chemical disasters. Hazmat teams and the like are equipped to survive in conditions and disaster areas where normal individuals can't. If you sent normal Red Cross workers into a highly-irradiated area without protection, things obviously wouldn't go well. Much the same, the Wardens are "equipped" with Blight immunity, so to speak.
The point being is that without the wardens, those maleficarum would've been punished and seen due justice. However, the Wardens give protection to these individuals, rather than respecting the laws of the lands in which they operate.Not all "maleficarum" do horrible deeds. Morrigan certainly didn't in DA:O, nor did Anders. There are plenty of non-Warden maleficarum, and the Wardens don't simply accept bat****-crazy individuals into their ranks freely. Some bad individuals are part of the Wardens, yeah, but not all of their mages are evil.
As someone pointed out above, the only nation with compulsory military service is that of the Qun. Fereldans and Kirkwallers both mention signing up to the army/guard (respectively) for pay, rather than being forced into it. If there is conscription in wartime, we have not heard of it.It'd be safe to assume the nations of Thedas do have conscription and levies in times of war. The Wardens are allowed to do in order to circumvent an entire populace from being wiped out by an Archdemon, and for individuals like Sten, it serves as atonements. I wouldn't honeslty care if a thief or mage was let out under Warden supervision if it meant keeping a giant ****ing dragon from slaughtering me and everyone I knew. Desperate times call for desperate measures; it's much like real-life Penal Battalions.
Hence why they should be disbanded, but not done away with completely. The technology and techniques behind the wardens are extremely useful, but their organizational structure is a detriment.Indeed, after many years, the Wardens are becoming more corrupt and inept, much like Duncan warned.
The wardens aren't really specially equipped: you don't see them carrying silverite runed weapons or anything. They have undergone the joining but apparently it's not that important, as neither the PC nor Alistair recieved extensive warden training and killed the Archdemon without it. Groups like Maric's Shield have a better success rate than the wardens.It's not so easy to simply raise vast amounts of Wardens. Wardens are specially-trained and specially-equipped; yes, you could take the Joining and distribute it to common soldiers, but could you honestly train them fast enough to tackle a Blight? Even the Wardens at Ostagar, with months or years of training, were overwhelmed rapidly. Raising an army of 10,000 militia and common soldiers via the Joining to combat hundreds of thousands of Darkspawn, whilst said soldiers and militia have little comparable training, would lead to horrific death, not to mention all the soldiers you'd lose to the Joining itself.
1. Better knowledge of the landThen what's the difference? Have several small groups like the Wardens be formed, have them take on the same eventual corruption and ineptitude? I do believe a few more groups would suffice to tackle the Blight, yeah, but disbanding the Wardens, the "grandfather" of all counter-Blight measures, isn't the way to go. The Wardens are like special forces; sent in to tackle specific challenges. We don't rely on one sole group of special forces units in our world, so why should we only rely on one in Dragon Age? Have several, Wardens included.
2. Better funding, direct from their nation
3. Can take advantage of national military and potentially advances in military technology
4. Won't run afoul of local governments
5. Harder to be overstretched
6. Not harried by ancient, inefficient tradition
7. Greater integration with regular troops.
The Warden-Commander was barely a warden, both in terms ofThe Warden-Commander of Ferelden also ended the Blight more quickly than any other Blight in history, sparing numerous lives and dealing a huge defeat to the Darkspawn hordes; playing your cards right, the Warden accomplishes a great deal more of good.
Bulking protocol doesn't equal a bad or inept character. Sometimes it's the best thing to do when you're dealing with corrupted or unstable governments like Orlais or Ferelden. Orlais is already heading towards civil war, Ferelden was in the middle of civil war when the Blight hit; do you really want to give groups like Chevaliers Warden-level authority to be abused by their governments? At least the Wardens don't answer to any one government.
time served and also his methodology. His successes prove that the
Wardens as an organization are inefficient.
Nothing is perfect, and everything can be improved. The problem with the wardens doesn't lie in their abiltiies, but their organization. Dismantling the establishment of the wardens, their culture, and their training, while maintaining their proprietary technologies and integrating them into standing armies stands to be the most advantageous.They've stopped every Blight thus far. Yeah, they've done some wrong things, but Dumat didn't end up wiping out the entire Human, Elven, or Dwarven races, nor did any Archdemon afterward. The Wardens have stopped civil wars, re-united countries, and saved the free people of Thedas from extinction five times now. No one had any clue what to do when Dumat arrived; imagine if the Wardens hadn't been around. Every Blight would've went exactly like the First. For that matter, there would've probably only been one Blight to begin with, and Origins would take place in the midst of a Blighted wasteland ruled by Dumat and the Darkspawn. But it didn't. You can thank the Wardens for that.
#123
Posté 23 octobre 2013 - 05:03
MisanthropePrime
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I suggest you read World of Thedas.Star fury wrote...
I recommend you to read the codex.
The Orlesian aristocracy is ancient and much given to competition. All the nobility play the Grand Game, as it is known, whether they wish to or not. It is a game of reputation and patronage, where moves are made with rumors and scandal is the chief weapon. No gentle game, this. More blood has been drawn as a result of the Grand Game than any war the Orlesians have fought. Of this, I am assured by almost every gentleman here.
I remember, as a child, watching a column of chevaliers parade down a wide avenue in Val Royeaux. Dashing knights on armored steeds, pennants snapping in the breeze. I have never forgotten.Most of the Orlesian aristocracy has ties to the chevaliers. Joining the knighthood and dedicating one's life to the empire is a tried and true method to improve one's social standing. It is the obvious choice for landless nobles and noble children not in line to inherit.
“Orlais presents a veneer of opulence, but the aristocracy are committed to a system of social one-upmanship they call the game. Sprawling receptions delight friend and foe, while bards strike from shadow with insinuation, larceny, and assassination, often to the strange delight of their targets. Control of these auteur agents is yet another layer of the game.
The presence of aristocracy does not define a feudal system. Feudalism is defined by land use and government structure. The codex and World of Thedas establish that Orlais is not a feudal state.
Modifié par MisanthropePrime, 23 octobre 2013 - 05:04 .
#124
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Posté 23 octobre 2013 - 05:14
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Logical points, but I would like to point out one thing; the Wardens aren't especially numerous. There are only a small handful of new recruits at Ostagar, for example; Warden recruitment and training takes several months to accomplish, and clearly, most individuals are quite afraid of the Joining process, and this, perhaps, is where the difference lies between the Wardens and individuals soldiers.
Wardens voluntarily partake in the Joining, unless conscription is invoked, though according to Duncan, that very rarely happens. If there were no Wardens, would you force common soldiers or the elite soldiers of other nations to partake in the Joining? If I went into battle against the Darkspawn, I'd feel much more confident if I had gotten there willingly. If you force people into the Joining in times of Blight, you definitely throw a punch to morale. You'd have to conscript on a much larger scale than the Wardens to obtain such a force, and the damage it'd do to already-small groups like Chevaliers would be tremendous. Not only would numerous individuals die during the Joining, but those who did survive would more likely than not be locked into a faster death via the inevitable Taint. Manpower would be hampered for certain. And even then, in times past, even elite forces of other nations haven't faired well against the Blight. The Wardens are trained specifically for that matter; indeed, the Warden-Commander had little training themselves, but notice that Wardens aren't non-formidable opponents. The Warden-Commander of Ferelden, Alistair, Anders, Duncan, Oghren even; they can cut down huge forces of opponents, Darkspawn or not. Such individuals would have no issue trouncing the Chevaliers, Ash Warriors, the Legion; Wardens have the capacity to fight much more formidable odds and win. I doubt the Chevaliers or other groups could've won the Fifth Blight in such a shorter time as you seem to think.
And yeah, those Wardens are plot-centric, but nothing so far shows that the Wardens aren't all adept at warfare. Awakening? Maybe, but those Wardens were ambushed by far more intelligent Darkspawn, so you can't really say they were horrible fighters themselves.
And I still don't think giving governments whom all have intrigue and ambition in the control of the land elite Darkspawn fighting forces is a good idea. If you think the politically-neutral Wardens are corrupt, just wait until you see Wardens aligned to specific government interests. If one of Orlais' enemies, or Ferelden's enemies, were to suffer a Blight, why should the Orlesian or Ferelden-military-Wardens care? They'd probably let their enemies rot.
Those kinds of biases would eventually happen, Thedas' history has proven that nations will do whatever they need to to take control. Giving them the Wardens and Warden authority isn't gonna help.
Wardens voluntarily partake in the Joining, unless conscription is invoked, though according to Duncan, that very rarely happens. If there were no Wardens, would you force common soldiers or the elite soldiers of other nations to partake in the Joining? If I went into battle against the Darkspawn, I'd feel much more confident if I had gotten there willingly. If you force people into the Joining in times of Blight, you definitely throw a punch to morale. You'd have to conscript on a much larger scale than the Wardens to obtain such a force, and the damage it'd do to already-small groups like Chevaliers would be tremendous. Not only would numerous individuals die during the Joining, but those who did survive would more likely than not be locked into a faster death via the inevitable Taint. Manpower would be hampered for certain. And even then, in times past, even elite forces of other nations haven't faired well against the Blight. The Wardens are trained specifically for that matter; indeed, the Warden-Commander had little training themselves, but notice that Wardens aren't non-formidable opponents. The Warden-Commander of Ferelden, Alistair, Anders, Duncan, Oghren even; they can cut down huge forces of opponents, Darkspawn or not. Such individuals would have no issue trouncing the Chevaliers, Ash Warriors, the Legion; Wardens have the capacity to fight much more formidable odds and win. I doubt the Chevaliers or other groups could've won the Fifth Blight in such a shorter time as you seem to think.
And yeah, those Wardens are plot-centric, but nothing so far shows that the Wardens aren't all adept at warfare. Awakening? Maybe, but those Wardens were ambushed by far more intelligent Darkspawn, so you can't really say they were horrible fighters themselves.
And I still don't think giving governments whom all have intrigue and ambition in the control of the land elite Darkspawn fighting forces is a good idea. If you think the politically-neutral Wardens are corrupt, just wait until you see Wardens aligned to specific government interests. If one of Orlais' enemies, or Ferelden's enemies, were to suffer a Blight, why should the Orlesian or Ferelden-military-Wardens care? They'd probably let their enemies rot.
Those kinds of biases would eventually happen, Thedas' history has proven that nations will do whatever they need to to take control. Giving them the Wardens and Warden authority isn't gonna help.
#125
Posté 23 octobre 2013 - 05:28
Star fury
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MisanthropePrime wrote...
I suggest you read World of Thedas.Star fury wrote...
I recommend you to read the codex.
The Orlesian aristocracy is ancient and much given to competition. All the nobility play the Grand Game, as it is known, whether they wish to or not. It is a game of reputation and patronage, where moves are made with rumors and scandal is the chief weapon. No gentle game, this. More blood has been drawn as a result of the Grand Game than any war the Orlesians have fought. Of this, I am assured by almost every gentleman here.
I remember, as a child, watching a column of chevaliers parade down a wide avenue in Val Royeaux. Dashing knights on armored steeds, pennants snapping in the breeze. I have never forgotten.Most of the Orlesian aristocracy has ties to the chevaliers. Joining the knighthood and dedicating one's life to the empire is a tried and true method to improve one's social standing. It is the obvious choice for landless nobles and noble children not in line to inherit.
“Orlais presents a veneer of opulence, but the aristocracy are committed to a system of social one-upmanship they call the game. Sprawling receptions delight friend and foe, while bards strike from shadow with insinuation, larceny, and assassination, often to the strange delight of their targets. Control of these auteur agents is yet another layer of the game.
The presence of aristocracy does not define a feudal system. Feudalism is defined by land use and government structure. The codex and World of Thedas establish that Orlais is not a feudal state.
Do you have exact quotes from "World of Thedas" that "Orlais is not a feudal state"? If not, good luck with your headcanon.
I shouldn't really discuss something with a person who thinks that aristocracy and nobility are not the same thing.
Modifié par Star fury, 23 octobre 2013 - 05:32 .
