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It's quite sad that Quantic Dream is the only best storyteller right now.


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#201
LTD

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Seival wrote...

Quantic Dream did amazing job. I mean Beyond: Two Souls of course... And to all people, who are still very sceptical about interactive movie genre, I wanna say that I was sceptical too... before I played Beyond: Two Souls.

Good books have a lot of content for your own imagination, but they have zero art... I mean it's better to see and really feel something once than read about it 100 times.

Good movies are something that you can see and feel, but they have too little content and poor immersion level. No matter how good the movie is - you always feel yourself like just an observer.

Good regular games can create nice immersion level, they also have tons of content, but still they miss something compared to the movies. Gameplay plays very important role, it dominates the game more or less, and that is what make regular games look too... videogamish. It's too much about gameplay than it's about the story.



...All these thoughts brought me to a conclusion: Interactive Movie is the best format for true storytelling. It's more than a book, because you see and feel great actors' work. It's more than a movie, because you feel yourself like the participant, not an observer. And it's more than a game, because gameplay doesn't dominate the story, it only makes the story interactive and greater in terms of immersion level.

Why Quantic Dream is the only developer that understands this? BioWare, please, try to follow the Quantic Dream path. You have several studios, and at least one of them could specialize on creating great interactive movies.

Please, I need more amazing stories :crying:


TLDR Beard > Quantic Dream

As a ground rule of sorts, if I buy something dressed in clothes of a video game and realize a TV remote would make a perfectly fine and adequate controller for it, I am going to have a bad time. Due to the brain hump involved (But..I wanna play my game!:(  ) the feeling of just getting so see a story that belongs to somebody else is much more present and  much more bothersome than it would during a movie.

Thought that a video game  should approach and flirt with movies in order to achieve their own maximum height in field of storytelling has something very belittling about it. When game gets dressed in see through clothes of interactive movies, it abandons it's own strengths and instead, uselessly pursues those of another medium.

Regardless wether  video game tells it's story  through premade cutscenes or something with more impression of freedom,I very much need to feel I am playing the character.  I want some measure of moving space in terms of how deep the story is and how deeply it all affects my character.

Mild  mid-game GTA V spoilers ahead;
Take GTA V for example of something better.  Player sees a cutscene where Michael's family leaves him.  Should he like to do so, player has freedom to decide how to play through Michael's  reaction. Does he do some yoga and go **** about it to shrink? Does he sit down, get drunk, stare TV. Haircut? Tattoo to celebrate freedom? Rampage of very unimpotent rage with Uzi?  In my books, my Michael growing a beard few days after is much greater, much more satisfying and meaningful story element than anything interactive movie would manage. Head canon, immersion being the keywords here.


As a pretty essential sidenote, I'm able and willing to forgive literally every aspect in dysfunctionality of quick time event game  if the story and storytelling are  good enough. "good enough" being something along the lines of OMYFUKINGGOD.
Fact number of reviewers I've come to trust have found story of B:2S unsatisfying was enough to put it in " Prolly won't try it" bin for me.

Modifié par LTD, 25 octobre 2013 - 12:28 .


#202
Mr.House

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Seival wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Seival wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

How the hell is press a button or doing a movement that is scripted realistic or even fun? The fact that you can set your controller down and just watch as nothing bad happens is disgusting and a joke. Beyond is a overpriced movie.


Simple. It's not just scripted, it's performed by professional actors, and all interactions correspond the actions your character is going to perform perfectly. Yes, if you lose, Aiden will eventually help you, but still you are able to win the combat just by Jodie, and the combat will look and feel differently.

We are not talking about fun here, we are talking about experiencing something. Beyond: Two Souls is not a comedy and not a competitive shooter. You should look for fun in other games. Interactive movie is about realistic experience, not about having fun.

....Then why play a VIDEO GAME. Why waste $60 on a movie where everything is scrpted and you can not fail removing player agency and feeling rewarded for doing something. Thankfully the bulk of devs know what gamers want instead of following the yolk David seems to have a hard on for(along with putting a naked Page in his game which almost made her sue Sony)


And what's the point of playing Planescape: Torment for example? Protagonist also can't die in combat there (except just few combats in the Fortress of Regrets and ability to commit suicide with a unique weapon). In addition to this, all Planescape combats are just primitive and static, not even scripted. If you were defeated, you will just wake up and proceed to the combat you just lost to win and move the story forwards. Planescape was a bad game then? How many people would agree with such statement, how do you think?

Story-driven games are about experiencing feelings, and taking part in some interesting events. Also each good story-driven game raises a number of philosophical questions for player to think about. No regular game, movie, or book, can make all of this happen in the best possible quality. Only interactive movie can... Don't get me wrong, there are very good regular games, movies, and books. But all of them will never be as amazing as perfectly made interactive movies.

Because you still fail in PS:T. When you die, you end up in a morge, somewhere else, you don't have some fricken wacky ghost come out of nowhere and solve your problems. If you die in PS:T, you have to redo that battle yourself, if you die again you have to do it again. That is not the case in Beyond at all. Comparing the two is not just insulting to the devs who created PS:T, it's an insult to classic CRPGs that rewarded you for your effort. Something Beyond does not do because it's not a game, it's a $60 movie.

#203
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So is Seival a troll? Honest question.

#204
SlottsMachine

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J. Reezy wrote...

So is Seival a troll? Honest question.


Its the only logical conclusion. 

#205
dreamgazer

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J. Reezy wrote...

So is Seival a troll? Honest question.


Just a simple poster with opinions, Reezy. That's all.

<3

#206
lady_v23

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I really love Beyond Two souls, but saying 'the only best storyteller right now' is a bit much.

uh.. you forgot 'the last of us'? and some other titles that I'm surely forgetting about.

#207
dreamgazer

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lady_v23 wrote...

I really love Beyond Two souls, but saying 'the only best storyteller right now' is a bit much.

uh.. you forgot 'the last of us'? and some other titles that I'm surely forgetting about.


Yeah, I wish this thread would have covered The Walking Dead and The Wolf Among Us, too, as well as that one. Maybe even Assassin's Creed.

#208
Seival

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Mr.House wrote...

Seival wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Seival wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

How the hell is press a button or doing a movement that is scripted realistic or even fun? The fact that you can set your controller down and just watch as nothing bad happens is disgusting and a joke. Beyond is a overpriced movie.


Simple. It's not just scripted, it's performed by professional actors, and all interactions correspond the actions your character is going to perform perfectly. Yes, if you lose, Aiden will eventually help you, but still you are able to win the combat just by Jodie, and the combat will look and feel differently.

We are not talking about fun here, we are talking about experiencing something. Beyond: Two Souls is not a comedy and not a competitive shooter. You should look for fun in other games. Interactive movie is about realistic experience, not about having fun.

....Then why play a VIDEO GAME. Why waste $60 on a movie where everything is scrpted and you can not fail removing player agency and feeling rewarded for doing something. Thankfully the bulk of devs know what gamers want instead of following the yolk David seems to have a hard on for(along with putting a naked Page in his game which almost made her sue Sony)


And what's the point of playing Planescape: Torment for example? Protagonist also can't die in combat there (except just few combats in the Fortress of Regrets and ability to commit suicide with a unique weapon). In addition to this, all Planescape combats are just primitive and static, not even scripted. If you were defeated, you will just wake up and proceed to the combat you just lost to win and move the story forwards. Planescape was a bad game then? How many people would agree with such statement, how do you think?

Story-driven games are about experiencing feelings, and taking part in some interesting events. Also each good story-driven game raises a number of philosophical questions for player to think about. No regular game, movie, or book, can make all of this happen in the best possible quality. Only interactive movie can... Don't get me wrong, there are very good regular games, movies, and books. But all of them will never be as amazing as perfectly made interactive movies.

Because you still fail in PS:T. When you die, you end up in a morge, somewhere else, you don't have some fricken wacky ghost come out of nowhere and solve your problems. If you die in PS:T, you have to redo that battle yourself, if you die again you have to do it again. That is not the case in Beyond at all. Comparing the two is not just insulting to the devs who created PS:T, it's an insult to classic CRPGs that rewarded you for your effort. Something Beyond does not do because it's not a game, it's a $60 movie.


Being defeated just to resurrect yourself on a nearest "graveyard" and return to the same combat is as much failure as being defeated so your "guardian spirit" has to step forward to defend you.

Nameless One's immortality is as much part of the Planescape story, as Aiden being bound to Jodie the part of Beyond story. Both take large part in making corresponding stories what they are.

And know what? There are no games where you can fail actually, because you always can start from the beginning or load a save. There are no games that format your HD and prohibit you from installing the game again in case of the very first failure in a combat scene.

Beyond: Two Souls is a game, not a movie. Don't believe me? Ask game developers about that :)

Modifié par Seival, 25 octobre 2013 - 07:41 .


#209
Mr.House

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Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh really. So in PT:S when you die, that fight resolves it self like Beyond? Nice try. You can enjoy Beyond all you want, it does not change the fact it is a interactive movie(with crappy writing) with "gameplay" that holds your hand, does not challenge you and is not interesting at all.

Also your hyperbole of failing in a video game is just facepalm inducing.

#210
Seival

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dreamgazer wrote...

lady_v23 wrote...

I really love Beyond Two souls, but saying 'the only best storyteller right now' is a bit much.

uh.. you forgot 'the last of us'? and some other titles that I'm surely forgetting about.


Yeah, I wish this thread would have covered The Walking Dead and The Wolf Among Us, too, as well as that one. Maybe even Assassin's Creed.


If one developer is number one right now, that doesn't mean all others are trash-makers. There is 1st place, there is 2nd place, there is 3rd place, and so on.

I like Mass Effect Trilogy very much. I like The Last of Us game even more. But Beyond: Two Souls is the best story for me untill someone will make something better.

I really hope BioWare will start producing interactive-movie stories with one of their studios. It would be much better than participating in creating one more silly regular movie based on a game.

#211
Mr.House

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If Bioware goes down Beyonds road, they will just lose alot more fans that are already disgruntled with their quality. Looking at Quantic Dream and David Cage is a big no no in my books, also you liking synthesis makes more sense now.

#212
AresKeith

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Seival wrote...

I really hope BioWare will start producing interactive-movie stories with one of their studios. It would be much better than participating in creating one more silly regular movie based on a game.


Why do you always ask for other games to be direct copies of other games?

If you don't like the way other games are made, then don't play them

#213
Cyonan

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Failure is not the condition where you can never try again, Seival. It is simply the condition where you have failed to pass the level.

When the game tells you "you died, now go back and do it again until you get it right" then you can fail, even if there is an in-game reason for being able to respawn.

When the game lets you go on despite the fact that you "died" then there is no true failure in that game. You get to pass the level no matter what you do.

Beyond is a game, but a lot of people consider it as barely making the cut to be called one. They appear to put a minimal amount of resources into their gameplay and focus everything on the story. It's fine for those who like it but not everybody wants that in a video game, not even a story heavy one.

I have to agree that if BioWare made a game modelled after Quantic Dream/David Cage games, then I would have absolutely no interest in buying that game because I have never enjoyed any of his games that much.

If they modelled Mass Effect or Dragon Age after it, I would call that an incredibly stupid move since you've already set out what the look and feel of the series is supposed to be(admittedly Dragon Age has jumped around quite a bit).

#214
Mr.House

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FFS, you can fail in Tetris or a Sports game, failure does not mean death. It means you failed at a goal, this is non existent in Beyond, that right there is a MASSIVE issue.

Modifié par Mr.House, 25 octobre 2013 - 08:13 .


#215
Seival

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Mr.House wrote...

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh really. So in PT:S when you die, that fight resolves it self like Beyond? Nice try. You can enjoy Beyond all you want, it does not change the fact it is a interactive movie(with crappy writing) with "gameplay" that holds your hand, does not challenge you and is not interesting at all.

Also your hyperbole of failing in a video game is just facepalm inducing.


Seing battle resolved itself in a way you didn't want it to be resolved is much better than bashing your head against unrealistic combat mechanics or conservative difficulty level again and again with the same actions.

A lot of people think Beyond: Two Souls is the best (or at least one of the best) story ever created. And they find its gameplay very exciting and realistic. Also, there are many people who find different types of regular gameplays outdated and boring...

...See the trend? The newer story-driven game is, the more cutscenes with real actors' work it has, and the less outdated regular gameplay it offers. It says a lot about what most people like and dislike. This is the right trend.

Modifié par Seival, 25 octobre 2013 - 08:14 .


#216
Mr.House

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Seival wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh really. So in PT:S when you die, that fight resolves it self like Beyond? Nice try. You can enjoy Beyond all you want, it does not change the fact it is a interactive movie(with crappy writing) with "gameplay" that holds your hand, does not challenge you and is not interesting at all.

Also your hyperbole of failing in a video game is just facepalm inducing.


Seing battle resolved itself in a way you didn't want it to be resolved is much better than bashing your head against unrealistic combat mechanics or conservativ difficulty level again and again with the same actions.

A lot of people think Beyond: Two Souls is the best (or at least one of the best) story ever created. And they find its gameplay very exciting and realistic. Also, there are many people who find different types of regular gameplays outdated and boring...

...See the trend? The newer story-driven game is, the more cutscenes with real actors' work it has, and the less outdated regular gameplay it offers. It says a lot about what most people like and dislike. This is the right trend.

............ I just. *sigh* I'm going to go play some Persona 2, a REAL GAME, that also happens to be better written AND have fun gameplay.

#217
dreamgazer

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Whoa, whoa, whoa ... "a lot" of people think Beyond: Two Souls is one of the best stories ever created?

#218
Mr.House

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dreamgazer wrote...

Whoa, whoa, whoa ... "a lot" of people think Beyond: Two Souls is one of the best stories ever created?

No, outside BSN I see very little praise. It's just Sevial being Sevial.

#219
A Crusty Knight Of Colour

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I liek movies.

#220
Mr.House

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CrustyBot wrote...

I liek movies.

So do I,I also like vidio games.

#221
Liamv2

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Uh while i like the game you are aware that almost every review for this game has been negative? It is quite hard to find reviews both professional and public that say anything good about it. I have only seen like 2 positive reviews.

Modifié par Liamv2, 25 octobre 2013 - 08:23 .


#222
Cyonan

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Seival wrote...
Seing battle resolved itself in a way you didn't want it to be resolved is much better than bashing your head against unrealistic combat mechanics or conservative difficulty level again and again with the same actions.

A lot of people think Beyond: Two Souls is the best (or at least one of the best) story ever created. And they find its gameplay very exciting and realistic. Also, there are many people who find different types of regular gameplays outdated and boring...

...See the trend? The newer story-driven game is, the more cutscenes with real actors' work it has, and the less outdated regular gameplay it offers. It says a lot about what most people like and dislike. This is the right trend.


I'd rather have combat which challenges me and has higher stakes. XCOM wasn't popular because it was impossible to fail.

A lot of people think Half-Life is the best video game ever created(myself included). Should BioWare start making games modelled after Valve's games now?

Amusingly enough, that game has absolutely no cutscenes in it which is actually something that people have praised about it.

#223
Seival

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Cyonan wrote...

Seival wrote...

Writing itself is not a theory. But reading is. Visuals, sounds, feedback, and interactions bring you closer and closer to practice. And that's why I believe interactive-movie > videogame > movie > book.

World of Warcraft combat or any other regular game combat is quite standard - click enemy to death while seing you and your enemy running around through flat surface performing the same animations again and again. I don't see this as truly dinamic and exciting combat anymore, after what I've experienced in Beyond: Two Souls. No matter how many abilities and skills you have in regular game, Beyond: Two Souls combat still feels realistic, while regular game combat feels oversimplified (even through it requires some skill of course). For the story-driven game feelings is what must take priority, even in combat scenes. And all those skills, abilities, weapon/armor sets etc should take priority for multiplayer competitive games like WoW, which do not have and do not need any kind of solid story.

Story can't be limitless. Dialogue scenes too.

Gameplay cannot create a solid story. That's why I don't like games like EVE Online or Skyrim. But sometimes it's really fun to play some competitive shooters. But you should understand, that I never come to play a competitive shooter to find a story there. There is not real story in such games.

Never told that my opinion is the only one correct. But always voiced my opinion when a topic is really interesting to discuss :)


Reading is not a theory either. You cannot seriously sit there and tell me that somehow anything I've felt from reading a book is less than what I felt from a movie, or video game, or interactive movie.

Your statements about WoW are rather off. Part of the game is Battlegrounds and Arenas, which are competitive PvP however the game itself has its biggest focus on raiding, the co-operative PvE side of things. I have to work together with 9 or 24 other players to accomplish our goal of killing the boss. Bosses are typically heavily scripted, but they do not always perform the exact same animations in the exact same order.

Many of the fights have multiple phases where the boss fight changes. A couple of times Blizzard has even been known to change the fight each time, making you fight a different set of enemies. The fights are no less dynamic than what you'd find in a QTE.

Also, WoW does have a story. If you like it or not is subjective but I find it overall to be pretty solid, and it's constantly changing since they update the game on a regular basis.

The thing is that the interactive movies often give the impression of letting me choose my way of doing things, but in reality it's choosing one of their way of doing things or sometimes not even choosing but rather just taking part in it. I'm interacting with it, but my influence is very limited by current technology unless there are only human players involved in things(another strength of MMOs, they have game worlds populated by living people rather than AI).

Gameplay can create solid story, but it's typically story that you as the player have written. Then you've got the people who can weave story into their gameplay.

Despite the silent protagonist bringing things down a bit, Valve is brilliant at this with Half-Life. You are never taken out of the action so the game can shove some story in your face. There are periods of high action with intense firefights followed by some down time so they can get to the dialogue and pace the game nicely. All story in the game is delivered via dialogue while gameplay is going on. There is no sudden break or pause, and if you really want to you can ignore it and just play it as another FPS game.

Perhaps right/wrong were not the correct words. You are saying that one medium is better than another, and that people who think so are progressive people(implying that anybody who disagrees with you is not).

There is no right and wrong or better and worse in art. It's an illogical statement because it's impossible for one thing to be better than another. You can prefer interactive movies, but that doesn't mean that movies, books, and regular gameplay doesn't all have their own merits.

To claim that being a visual person makes you progressive implies that I am somehow not because I disagree with you, which makes you look incredibly closed minded.

As I said, I'm not calling you wrong for preferring interactive movies. I am calling you wrong for claiming they are objectively superior to everything else.

I view the statement "books have no art" from your OP to be equal to those stating that video games are not art.


It's less, because for book you can use only your imagination. Like I said, actors' work and interactions add several realistic layers that you can't have while reading a book.

Raids, battlegrounds, arenas, 5-mans, duels infront of Stormwind gates... All the same click-enemy-to-death boredom. I played a frost mage and resto druid there. It was fun for some time, but at some point I realized that I just consumed a lot of time for nothing but inevitable boredom.

Warcraft 3 had a story. World of Warcraft ruined it in the most terrible manner possible. I was Warcraft fan once, but Blizzard did everything for me to change my mind.

Your influence in a game will always be limited no matter if it's interactive movie or not. Saying that interactive movies are more limited than MMOs is incorrect. They just have different types of limits. Personally, I find participating in an interactive combat or non-combat scene much more exciting than grinding and farming for you new epic weapon.

No regular gameplay ever created a story for me. It only helped to waste some time between dialogues and cutscenes.

Current game development trends show that people like regular gameplay less and less. They prefer feelings over smashing the keybord. They prefer logical interactions and well made cutscenes over WSAD + Fire or point-and-click. Devs follow the trend gladly, and most players are happy about that.

Maybe "books have no art" statement is a little not what I actually meant, but my knowledge of english doesn't allow it to be said differently in one short phrase. Anyway, I hope after our conversation you understood what I meant :)

Modifié par Seival, 25 octobre 2013 - 08:48 .


#224
Argentoid

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Don't make me laugh, please. Mac Walters is a bonafide good writer compared to David Cage.

Modifié par Argentoid, 25 octobre 2013 - 08:49 .


#225
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Seival wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh really. So in PT:S when you die, that fight resolves it self like Beyond? Nice try. You can enjoy Beyond all you want, it does not change the fact it is a interactive movie(with crappy writing) with "gameplay" that holds your hand, does not challenge you and is not interesting at all.

Also your hyperbole of failing in a video game is just facepalm inducing.


Seing battle resolved itself in a way you didn't want it to be resolved is much better than bashing your head against unrealistic combat mechanics or conservative difficulty level again and again with the same actions.

A lot of people think Beyond: Two Souls is the best (or at least one of the best) story ever created. And they find its gameplay very exciting and realistic. Also, there are many people who find different types of regular gameplays outdated and boring...

...See the trend? The newer story-driven game is, the more cutscenes with real actors' work it has, and the less outdated regular gameplay it offers. It says a lot about what most people like and dislike. This is the right trend.

Regular gameplay is outdated!? Interactive movies are the right trend!? Oh my god...

What you've just said is one of the most insanely idotic things I have ever heard.