290 réponses à ce sujet

[DeinonSlayer]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

grey_wind wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Sort of like how the Genophage was retconned in ME2 from across-the-board sterility to measured "population control" in ME2, then back to species-threatening sterility in ME3.

When a population-control check is coupled with a war where the daily death toll numbers in the millions, then population-control becomes species-threatening (it continues to amaze me how people overlook the existence of the Reaper war).

That still is no reason the Genophage has to go from 0.01% to 100%. A sustainable population in light of the reaper war wouldn't require the Genophage to be raised to any more than 0.5%, and even that's being absurdly generous

There are other reasons too, however. Such as, it being immoral.

They're not going to be cranking out fully-grown Krogan ready to fight. Given the timespan of this war, curing the Genophage or not has no effect on the Krogan's ability to participate, only their willingness. The effects of the cure will not be felt by any party until the war is over, at which point that 100% will be a MAJOR concern as the Krogan will quickly reach the carrying capacity of their nuked-out homeworld and seek to expand.

Take stillbirths out of the picture, and I think the 0.05% would be plenty. Better reflects the mortality rate of a developed technological species, as opposed to, say, fish.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 27 octobre 2013 - 07:27 .

[Kataphrut94]

I don't reckon Miranda (or any of the ME2 characters for that matter) were 'butchered' in ME3. Maybe if you judge their appearances purely in terms of quantity, but why would you do that, you cold emotionless robot?

[crimzontearz]

Han Shot First wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

So....in a world were cloning is pretty much commonplace a diseases that causes the lungs to fail over time because of moisture in the air sounds incurable to  you...REALLY?

*snip*

I understand it is science fiction but FFS make it sound believable at least.

Whether or not Kepral's syndrome was plausible is a different discussion from whether or not it was or should have been canonically curable. According to the canon, it was a terminal illness with no known cure. I wouldn't have been a fan of the writers presenting Kepral's Syndrome as a fatal illness with no known cure, only to then say, "Well except for Thane...he is special. Apparently his love for Siha regenerates lung tissue."

Whether or not Kepral's Syndrome itself is implausible, having Thane be the first person to be cured from it would require an even greater suspension of disbelief. It would have also been bad writing, as his entire character arc in Mass Effect 2 revolved around that terminal illness.

then the someone should do their homework and know their more better?

[teh DRUMPf!!]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

There are other reasons too, however. Such as, it being immoral.

They're not going to be cranking out fully-grown Krogan ready to fight. Given the timespan of this war, curing the Genophage or not has no effect on the Krogan's ability to participate, only their willingness. The effects of the cure will not be felt by any party until the war is over, at which point that 100% will be a MAJOR concern as the Krogan will quickly reach the carrying capacity of their nuked-out homeworld and seek to expand.

I'm fully aware of that. 'Not like it's ever said that a genophage cure is needed for that reason.

Let's get one thing straight first: the genophage *is* killing off the krogan species. We've seen what kind of life the average krogan leads. You think they are dying at an equal or lower rate than they successfully birth (99.9% infant mortality rate)? If not, then one can soundly say that the genophage is not maintaining their numbers, but reducing it (if very slowly).

So now, with the genophage effective, the krogan have every reason not to want to commit to the war without a cure. There's no telling how long it will take for the war to end, and again, the death toll on just a daily basis is staggering. At that point, there's no reason to fight a war for survival if it's just going to bring them much closer to the genophage's inevitable end-point. If the war is going to be won at all, then they are better off bunkering down and maintaining whatever numbers they can preserve. If it's going to be lost, then it makes no difference, as they're going to die either way.

Take stillbirths out of the picture, and I think the 0.05% would be plenty. Better reflects the mortality rate of a developed technological species, as opposed to, say, fish.

Population numbers is only the half of it. The other half is the sociopolitical issue the genophage brings about.

Even if 0.05% is all that's mathmatically required to bring population numbers back up, that's still an apallingly low rate on an individual level to have a child. That's the crux of the issue which Mordin's "population control" cover flat-out ignored: how do you ask a couple to go through the mental and emotional trauma of repeated unsuccessful births?

"It's just population control, you see. Your people's survival is at stake, though, so please go through this traumatic pain another umpteen more times so you don't all go extinct -- personal felings be damned, it's what your people need. kthanxbye! =]" It doesn't work like that. They're not mechs, you can't just order or program them to mindlessly do what they "need" to do. They're people. They have basic dignities that must be respected, or you'll only remain in conflict with them.

At 0.05%, you'd have to go through that experience around 19 times or so to successfully birth an infant. Who the hell wants to go through that ish? Can you blame the females for becoming suicidal? Or the men for being jaded and hostile? 0.05% is actually worse than 100% or 0.01% because it fixes the population half without fixing the sociopolitical half. It's truly an all-or-nothing deal: if you're not going to fix both issues, you need not bother fixing the genophage at all.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 27 octobre 2013 - 04:59 .

[DeinonSlayer]

@HYR 2.0

I don't think you get my meaning. Granted, I picked .05% out of a hat, but imagine the pre-Genophage standard was 100 eggs in a clutch. Patriarch talks wistfully about Krogan newborns killing each other in the nest. Very high attrition rate.

Say the genophage reduced that to one viable egg out of every two hundred eggs laid. The social breakdown you speak of is to be expected. Even if the population was technically stable, those are the kinds of numbers to make a parent lose hope. The key to that is the stillbirths. Still laying a mountain of eggs, but none of them are viable.

But, if the genophage cure reduced that to, say, five eggs laid in a clutch, but guaranteed their viability, the population would be far more stable - still growing, still dealing with attrition due to native wildlife et al, but they wouldn't have to cull their own young just to keep an even keel as they did pre-Genophage. This is NOT an all-or-nothing deal. A return to 100 viable eggs in a clutch would be disastrous.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 27 octobre 2013 - 05:03 .

[David7204]

It is an all-or-nothing deal because, firstly, that's what the krogan demand, and second, because there's no indication that modifying the genophage is anywhere near as easy as removing it entirely. Quite the contrary.

There's no retcon at all.

Modifié par David7204, 27 octobre 2013 - 05:08 .

[DeinonSlayer]

David7204 wrote...

It is an all-or-nothing deal because, firstly, that's what the krogan demand, and second, because there's no indication that modifying the genophage is as easy as removing it entirely. Quite the contrary.

There's no retcon at all.

Mordin's cure doesn't undo what was done to make them infertile, it finds a work-around. That's pretty much the only detail we get about it. RPGs love all-or-nothing decisions like this; I'm speaking in hypotheticals.

[KaiserShep]

Arguing percentages when it comes to modifying the genophage rather than curing it outright don't seem to make any meaningful difference when everyone is being wiped out by reapers. In a relatively safe galaxy, it wouldn't matter. With the genophage modified, the krogan can take steps to manage through it and survive. This is not the case if their atmosphere is being poisoned by reapers, and they're dying fighting reaper monsters everywhere else.

Anyway, Mordin himself says that modifying it is far more complicated. Given the urgency of the situation, modification is not something I'd see as being a reasonable alternative. You either cure it, or you don't.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 27 octobre 2013 - 05:11 .

[David7204]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

David7204 wrote...

It is an all-or-nothing deal because, firstly, that's what the krogan demand, and second, because there's no indication that modifying the genophage is as easy as removing it entirely. Quite the contrary.

There's no retcon at all.

Mordin's cure doesn't undo what was done to make them infertile, it finds a work-around. That's pretty much the only detail we get about it. RPGs love all-or-nothing decisions like this; I'm speaking in hypotheticals.

You don't get to speak in hypotheticals when you make accusations like 'retcon.' You get to work with what the narrative gives you.

In fact, actually it goes further than that. You are not only not allowed to make hypotheticals for your favor, you have to assume hypotheticals against your favor. Burden of proof.

Modifié par David7204, 27 octobre 2013 - 05:16 .

[DeinonSlayer]

KaiserShep wrote...

Arguing percentages when it comes to modifying the genophage rather than curing it outright don't seem to make any meaningful difference when everyone is being wiped out by reapers. In a relatively safe galaxy, it wouldn't matter. With the genophage modified, the krogan can take steps to manage through it and survive. This is not the case if their atmosphere is being poisoned by reapers, and they're dying fighting reaper monsters everywhere else.

Let's just get one thing out there: the Reapers do not matter in this context. There isn't a single species out there whose population can replenish itself faster than the Reapers can wipe them out. The cure's implications will have an impact over the next ten thousand years - that's when they'll be felt, not in the next six months of war. The only immediate short-term impact is on the Krogans' willingness to fight, and as the fake cure demonstrates, even that works to motivate them (under Wreav at least), even though the long-term trend is a spiral of violence ending in extinction.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I think Mordin's genophage modification was the right idea.

[David7204]

The Reapers do matter. Just making they're hitting everyone doesn't mean it won't leave greater impacts some places than others.

[DeinonSlayer]

David7204 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

David7204 wrote...

It is an all-or-nothing deal because, firstly, that's what the krogan demand, and second, because there's no indication that modifying the genophage is as easy as removing it entirely. Quite the contrary.

There's no retcon at all.

Mordin's cure doesn't undo what was done to make them infertile, it finds a work-around. That's pretty much the only detail we get about it. RPGs love all-or-nothing decisions like this; I'm speaking in hypotheticals.

You don't get to speak in hypotheticals when you make accusations like 'retcon.' You get to work with what the narrative gives you.

In fact, actually it goes further than that. You are not only not allowed to make hypotheticals for your favor, you have to assume hypotheticals against your favor. Burden of proof.

Funny to see you of all people argue about burden of proof. I say ME2 was a retcon because there was no word in ME1 of the genophage being anything but a sterility plague - then ME2 comes along and softballs it as "population control." Simple as that. It's not the only place it happened.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Ah... this is awkward.


I don't know what to believe about the krogan's reproduction. On one hand, you have all those instances of krogan infants said to be born in a clutch of eggs, as you've mentioned. Then you have things like Wrex saying Bakara is "pregnant" and EC slides showing one child per krogan couple. The Codex also approaches it as such ("only one in a thousand krogan pregnancies carry to term"). Now, I haven't studied biology in years, but I understand that pregnancy is only a quality of species that give live birth, not those that lay clutches of eggs?

I just don't know about this one. It's one of the more inconsistent points within this subplot.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

David7204 wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

David7204 wrote...

It is an all-or-nothing deal because, firstly, that's what the krogan demand, and second, because there's no indication that modifying the genophage is as easy as removing it entirely. Quite the contrary.

There's no retcon at all.

Mordin's cure doesn't undo what was done to make them infertile, it finds a work-around. That's pretty much the only detail we get about it. RPGs love all-or-nothing decisions like this; I'm speaking in hypotheticals.

You don't get to speak in hypotheticals when you make accusations like 'retcon.' You get to work with what the narrative gives you.

In fact, actually it goes further than that. You are not only not allowed to make hypotheticals for your favor, you have to assume hypotheticals against your favor. Burden of proof.

Funny to see you of all people argue about burden of proof. I say ME2 was a retcon because there was no word in ME1 of the genophage being anything but a sterility plague - then ME2 comes along and softballs it as "population control." Simple as that. It's not the only place it happened.

David doesn't like words that take away from the greatness of the series.

[DeinonSlayer]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Ah... this is awkward.


I don't know what to believe about the krogan's reproduction. On one hand, you have all those instances of krogan infants said to be born in a clutch of eggs, as you've mentioned. Then you have things like Wrex saying Bakara is "pregnant" and EC slides showing one child per krogan couple. The Codex also approaches it as such ("only one in a thousand krogan pregnancies carry to term"). Now, I haven't studied biology in years, but I understand that pregnancy is only a quality of species that give live birth, not those that lay clutches of eggs?

I just don't know about this one. It's one of the more inconsistent points within this subplot.

Yeah. Okeer in ME2 talks about "let a thousand die in a clutch." If we're talking about a return to 1000 viable eggs per clutch... god have mercy.

It might have been helpful to the decision-making process to get some solid numbers on this issue. I think the genophage, particularly the stillbirth issue, was exceedingly harsh. That doesn't blind me to practical considerations, however.

[Steelcan]

*makes popcorn*

[David7204]

No. Wrong. Mordin very clearly, intentionally, and explicitly addresses it as 'population control' as a contrary to the popular belief that it was a sterility plague. The fact that most people consider it a sterility plague is completely acknowledged. It's no more a retcon than the doctor from Leviathan speculating on the Rachni.

[DeinonSlayer]

David7204 wrote...

No. Wrong. Mordin very clearly, intentionally, and explicitly addresses it as 'population control' as a contrary to the popular belief that it was a sterility plague. The fact that most people consider it a sterility plague is completely acknowledged. It's no more a retcon than the doctor from Leviathan speculating on the Rachni.

Yes... and that was in ME2. Even news announcements in ME1 described it as a sterility plague. Ipso facto, retcon.

[David7204]

How is the fact that it was in ME 2 at all relevant? Or that fact that news announcements described it as such relevant? News using terms the average person recognizes is the standard, not the exception.

Not a retcon at all.

[jtav]

EDI also talks about the population explosion that will occur if even one percent become fertile. A fully fertile krogan population...dear God in heaven, it'll be another Rebellion. Yeah, sabotaging the cire suddenly seems very sensible.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

David7204 wrote...

No. Wrong. Mordin very clearly, intentionally, and explicitly addresses it as 'population control' as a contrary to the popular belief that it was a sterility plague. The fact that most people consider it a sterility plague is completely acknowledged. It's no more a retcon than the doctor from Leviathan speculating on the Rachni.

Yes... and that was in ME2. Even news announcements in ME1 described it as a sterility plague. Ipso facto, retcon.

Also, ME1 states that the Saren's lab is an installation to cure the genophage, whereas in ME2, it's referred to as a cloning facility. 

[David7204]

You know, it's just so funny how we have so many 'hardcore' Renegade players who just love their mantra of 'nothing matters except the war, nothing matters except the war, nothing matters except the war' and then totally forget about it for one of the most, if not they most, choice of the game.

Actually, that's a lie. It's really completely predictable and expected.

Modifié par David7204, 27 octobre 2013 - 05:38 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

jtav wrote...

EDI also talks about the population explosion that will occur if even one percent become fertile. A fully fertile krogan population...dear God in heaven, it'll be another Rebellion. Yeah, sabotaging the cire suddenly seems very sensible.

Yep. That's why I believe curing the genophage is the worst mistake anyone can make. Unfortunately, I'm between a rock and a hard place with that... I need the Krogan, but I also need the Salarians. 

[DeinonSlayer]

David7204 wrote...

You know, it's just so funny how we have so many 'hardcore' Renegade players who just love their mantra of 'nothing matters except the war, nothing matters except the war, nothing matters except the war' and then totally forget about it for one of the most, if not they most, choice of the game.

Who said I'm a hardcore renegade? I believe I've explained my stance vis-a-vis letting the dialogue wheel control your actions.