260 réponses à ce sujet

[GreatBlueHeron]

Navasha wrote...

No. It would be prop to get media attention and nothing more. I know me (and likely many others) are completely fed up with political statements in our entertainment venues. Nothing turns me off more than having some social commentary thrust into my unwind time.

Gee, thanks for viewing queer people (like myself) as nothing more than a political statement instead of as human beings.  You think I'm having fun living in a world saturated with the status quo?  This world is made for you, and you get mad when "political statements" get thrown a few crumbs?  Lolololol.  Dang you're greedy.
I have but a small consolation prize.  I'm glad to be such an inconvenience to your unwind time.   Gives  me warm fuzzies inside.

[AlexMBrennan]

Gee, thanks for viewing queer people (like myself) as nothing more than a political statement instead of as human beings

That's not what he said; the inclusions of such characters is not inherently a political statement, but the only reason he can see for Bioware to include them would be as a political statement.

Personally, I'm somewhat inclined to agree as Bioware has come up with quite a few romances that they evidently don't know how to write (e.g. Garrus' ME2 romance is more gimicky in-jokes than a romance, or Steve's "Don't make me into an anchor" line).

To make it absolutely clear, that's an opinion on Bioware's writers' skill and not on LGBT people.

[Br3admax]

GreatBlueHeron wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I have an unfortunate feeling that the ME fanbase isn't, overall, mature enough to handle it well.

This.  I've read several transphobic comments already and I haven't even finished the first page, let alone the rest of the thread.  
 

Then you are reading the wrong thread then. I've seen very little to none transphobia. It has nothing to do with that, and that is not why a lot of us, including myself disagree. 

[GreatBlueHeron]

Bull****take, AlexMBrennan. Queer people exist (and there's a significant number of us). The reason BioWare does and will include us is because the world is not 100% cis straight people. BioWare is aware enough to recognize that. Fantasy would be making all characters cis straight, which is why it's absolutely puzzling that anyone would see the inclusion of queer people as a political statement. Thankfully, BioWare understands, even though their understanding isn't perfect.

[GreatBlueHeron]

I don't want tokenism, either, but there's absolutely no reason why there can't be compelling queer characters.

[Inquisitor Recon]

No. Game lacks Irishmen and dwarves and angry sounding Germans. Don't see threads asking for them. Racist conspiracy? Obviously.

[eyezonlyii]

AlexMBrennan wrote...



Steve's "Don't make me into an anchor" line).

 I believe it was Robert's line as he was being taken, telling Steve it's ok to move on. I happen to really like that line, because it would be tough enough to call your love and tell them not to come for you, to run and save themselves, but on top of that, also telling them it's ok to love again.

[thehomeworld]

Wait you mean pull a fallout make girl for the in vault sequences then change it to male to leave and run around the waste land except in space...

[His Name was HYR!!]

We have ME3 Ashley.

[Steelcan]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

What, exactly, would that add to the story?

Controversy and "look how inclusive we are"

[dreamgazer]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

What, exactly, would that add to the story?

Some exceptionally awkward dialogue about the topic.  

Maybe even a scene like in The Crying Game if there's a romance. 

[TheBlackBaron]

Maybe. But my first choice would be for a transvestite character voiced by Eddie Izzard. Should fit right in especially if human expansion into the Traverse becomes a theme again (which you figure it should with the Batarians basically wiped out). 

CronoDragoon wrote...

Only if they can do it in a way that doesn't seem like their character is just there to be transgender. That would be tough to pull off, I think, but I am fine with the idea in theory.

Edit: I think Steve is a good example of not making a character "that gay character" who's there to be gay. His story is about loss and moving on, and it happens to be expressed through the loss of a husband. I was very happy for him by the end of the game.

I would argue precisely the opposite. The fact that Steve's entire character arc basically revolves around his dead husband - I think you have one conversation that doesn't involve him, the one about Steve's love for tinkering and piloting - pretty much squarely places him in "that gay character" territory. 

Traynor is a much better example. Kelly's bi, but he would have had a shot too had she gotten more development and wasn't basically a walking sex joke. 

Morocco Mole wrote...

I fully support smartly written characters like Arcade Gannon and welcome them. Because I agree, gay characters (that aren't irritating stereotypes) are very rare in videogames still. 

Yes. This. So much this.

Arcade and Veronica were hands down far better than the majority of characters Bioware has ever written, much less their ******- or bi-sexual characters. 

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 26 octobre 2013 - 02:56 .

[dreamgazer]

Don't you talk about Kelly like that, Baron.

[Bruce M. Shepard]

Absolutely not.

[Astartes Marine]

Unless it adds to the story then no I would not add them personally. There's been enough weak pandering already.

I would also think that with such advanced medical technology trans issues would be resolved completely anyways what with genetic/chromosome manipulation/alteration options being available even during pregnancy.

[Jorji Costava]

Essentially, any character you write into a story is going to be catering to some audiences more than others. The archetype of the badass dudebro soldier (with a code, of course) is catering to, well, dudebros. And that's not a bad thing. There's no reason why cis straight males should not have stories told about and for them.

At the same time, though, I see no reason why there's not room for stories about characters who don't fit into that archetype (lots of negatives in that sentence). Let a thousand flowers bloom, I say. I don't understand the idea that including a transgender character is "pandering," but including a straight white man is "doing what's necessary to tell a good story." The implication of that line of thinking seems to be that stories about transgender people are simply not worth telling for their own sake, and I don't find that particularly plausible at all.

Again, I don't think Bioware is obligated to include transgender characters; they don't have to try and represent every ethnicity, sexual identity, etc. in their story. That would get ridiculous. If they don't include one in their next game, I probably won't bat an eye myself. But I don't see what the objection would be if they did choose to include such a character.

EDIT: Fixed paragraphs

Modifié par osbornep, 26 octobre 2013 - 03:39 .

[Steelcan]

Because they would be including such a character for the sake of "look how inclusive we are".

[Jorji Costava]

Steelcan wrote...

Because they would be including such a character for the sake of "look how inclusive we are".

How do you know that? Again, that assumes that there could never possibly be a good narrative or thematic reason for including a transgender character except to make a political statement about equality. Again, it's to make the assumption that stories about transgender characters are simply not otherwise worth telling. That's as ungrounded as assuming that the only reason you'd ever make a story about a badass dudebro is so that adolescent males can live out nihilistic power fantasies. Neither assumption seems well supported.

[David7204]

The problem is that such a 'condition,' for lack of a better word, should ideally be silent. It should be something that's never talked about, never dragged out, never made an issue. Because it isn't an issue for the characters.

Unfortunately, that's narratively impossible. If the audience doesn't know about it, it doesn't exist. So to simply make such a character exist they need to make them louder than they ought to be. They can passively tell the audience that Steve is gay without making it an issue for either the characters or audience, and did so successfully. I doubt they would have as much luck with a character telling the player he or she is transsexual. Not exactly something that's going to come up in causal conversation.

Modifié par David7204, 26 octobre 2013 - 03:52 .

[dreamgazer]

osbornep wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Because they would be including such a character for the sake of "look how inclusive we are".

How do you know that? Again, that assumes that there could never possibly be a good narrative or thematic reason for including a transgender character except to make a political statement about equality. Again, it's to make the assumption that stories about transgender characters are simply not otherwise worth telling. That's as ungrounded as assuming that the only reason you'd ever make a story about a badass dudebro is so that adolescent males can live out nihilistic power fantasies. Neither assumption seems well supported.

How could the gender issue ever be relevant to the story, though?

Also, think about the probing discussion Shepard had with people about their culture differences.  Now, picture that involving a gender-bending individual for an unspecified purpose. 

I see no other reason for it to be a thing outside of wanting to draw attention to it for reasons.

[Steelcan]

osbornep wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Because they would be including such a character for the sake of "look how inclusive we are".

How do you know that? Again, that assumes that there could never possibly be a good narrative or thematic reason for including a transgender character except to make a political statement about equality. Again, it's to make the assumption that stories about transgender characters are simply not otherwise worth telling. That's as ungrounded as assuming that the only reason you'd ever make a story about a badass dudebro is so that adolescent males can live out nihilistic power fantasies. Neither assumption seems well supported.

Do you really see a game that puts the issue of transexual rights as a main focus, which as far as I can see is the only reason to have a transgendered character in a story, selling well?

Modifié par Steelcan, 26 octobre 2013 - 03:54 .

[Jorji Costava]

dreamgazer wrote...

How could the gender issue ever be relevant to the story, though?

Also, think about the probing discussion Shepard had with people about their culture differences. Now, picture that involving a gender-bending individual for an unspecified purpose.

I see no other reason for it to be a thing outside of wanting to draw attention to it for reasons.

That only makes sense if you assume that a transgender character's sexual identity has to be the defining attribute of that character, which needn't be the case. This isn't a perfect analogy, but Omar Little's homosexuality in The Wire was hardly the most important thing about him. Nor did it stop him from becoming the show's most popular character. Perhaps something similar could be done for a transgender character.

As for probing and potentially awkward conversations, I'm not sure it would have to be a particularly big issue. Perhaps sexual identities that don't fall neatly within the male-female spectrum just aren't a big deal in the future.