260 réponses à ce sujet

[David7204]

What's relevant is that they're a big deal now. I don't see how you could have a character passively tell the player they're transsexual.

[Jorji Costava]

Steelcan wrote...

Do you really see a game that puts the issue of transexual rights as a main focus, which as far as I can see is the only reason to have a transgendered character in a story, selling well?

Again, this assumes that sexual identity would have to be the central, defining attribute of a transgendered character. There's no more reason to assume this than to assume that Anderson's status as a cis straight male is his defining attribute.

EDIT: Fixed grammar

Modifié par osbornep, 26 octobre 2013 - 04:00 .

[Steelcan]

osbornep wrote...

That only makes sense if you assume that a transgender character's sexual identity has to be the defining attribute of that character, which needn't be the case. This isn't a perfect analogy, but Omar Little's homosexuality in The Wire was hardly the most important thing about him. Nor did it stop him from becoming the show's most popular character. Perhaps something similar could be done for a transgender character.

As for probing and potentially awkward conversations, I'm not sure it would have to be a particularly big issue. Perhaps sexual identities that don't fall neatly within the male-female spectrum just aren't a big deal in the future.

If the transgender character is added in solely to have a transgender character there are only a few plausible explanations, controversy, "look how inclusive we are", and attempts to add in "realism".

None of those are really good reasons to add in a character.

Characters exist to:
1. showcase the important themes of a story and offer perspectives on them.
2. react to the plot
3. act as sychophants in order to show off how heroic the PC is

[Steelcan]

osbornep wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Do you really see a game that puts the issue of transexual rights as a main focus, which as far as I can see is the only reason to have a transgendered character in a story, selling well?

Again, this assumes that sexual identity would have to be the central, defining attribute of a transgendered character. There's no more reason to assume this than to assume that Anderson's status as a cis straight male is his defining attribute.

So why make the character transgender and not "cisgendered"

[Steelcan]

Congrats Osbornrep you got me and David to agree on something

[David7204]

Do you even attempt to be consistent, Steelcan? You sneer at 'realism' after shrieking in it's defense (at the expense of other narrative elements) countless times.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

dreamgazer wrote...

osbornep wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Because they would be including such a character for the sake of "look how inclusive we are".

How do you know that? Again, that assumes that there could never possibly be a good narrative or thematic reason for including a transgender character except to make a political statement about equality. Again, it's to make the assumption that stories about transgender characters are simply not otherwise worth telling. That's as ungrounded as assuming that the only reason you'd ever make a story about a badass dudebro is so that adolescent males can live out nihilistic power fantasies. Neither assumption seems well supported.

How could the gender issue ever be relevant to the story, though?

Also, think about the probing discussion Shepard had with people about their culture differences.  Now, picture that involving a gender-bending individual for an unspecified purpose. 

I see no other reason for it to be a thing outside of wanting to draw attention to it for reasons.

The key would be making the character relevant to the story, and this happens to be part of who the person is. This is best done in a novel. It is difficult enough to do this well in a movie. It would be extremely difficult to do this well in a game. Video games are not the best story telling media. Honestly I don't think the writing staff is up to the task. They can barely write a gay character.

[Steelcan]

David7204 wrote...

Do you even attempt to be consistent, Steelcan? You sneer at 'realism' after shrieking in it's defense (at the expense of other narrative elements) countless times.

I'm not sneering at it right now.  I'm saying its a poor reason to include a certain character.




Also, not really

Modifié par Steelcan, 26 octobre 2013 - 04:04 .

[dreamgazer]

David7204 wrote...

I don't see how you could have a character passively tell the player they're transsexual.

Bingo.  It would be an active discussion, or it wouldn't be a thing at all.

[David7204]

Tell me, Julia. What supposed failures of Steve and Traynor are causing you to whine that BioWare "can barely write a gay character"?

[CronoDragoon]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

I would argue precisely the opposite. The fact that Steve's entire character arc basically revolves around his dead husband - I think you have one conversation that doesn't involve him, the one about Steve's love for tinkering and piloting - pretty much squarely places him in "that gay character" territory.

Does Aveline's character arc put her into "the straight character" territory because it's about the loss of her husband and her moving on with her life? No, it would be absurd to suggest that. It's likewise absurd to suggest that Steve's arc is about his gayness. His arc would be exactly the same if it was a wife; you just notice it because it being a husband is not the norm. But if people can't see past "his loved one had a peener" than that's their fault, not BioWare's. Steve doesn't have at-length discussions about "when he knew" or what it was like to be gay in the world or when they got married and what the social climate is like, because as far as I can tell no one gives a crap in the ME universe anymore. That Steve's loved one is also a man is besides the point of his character arc, and is moreover presented in a very matter of fact, not an issue or topic of discussion-type of way.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 26 octobre 2013 - 04:08 .

[David7204]

Dead on, Crono. Great post.

[Steelcan]

@David, I argue for realism when the fallout of choices is whats being discussed. I think events should unfold in a logical manner based on the personalities of those affected and how they could be reasonably expected to react.

For example I don't think Tali should be so passive while her species is being wiped out to me it seems inconsistent with her character. having her attack Shepard and forcing Shepard to kill her in self defense would be more realistic than her swan diving.

[NeonFlux117]

This thread should be awe and enlightened when The Wise One- david, graces it's presence.

David7204 the voice of Reason on BSN.

In David We Trust.

[wolfhowwl]

Steve was a gay man with Bioware's beloved Carth Syndrome. They could have done better.

Modifié par wolfhowwl, 26 octobre 2013 - 04:12 .

[CronoDragoon]

Steelcan wrote...
For example I don't think Tali should be so passive while her species is being wiped out to me it seems inconsistent with her character. having her attack Shepard and forcing Shepard to kill her in self defense would be more realistic than her swan diving.

I'm not sure what you guys were discussing before, but I'd agree with this.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

David7204 wrote...

Tell me, Julia. What supposed failures of Steve and Traynor are causing you to whine that BioWare "can barely write a gay character"?

Samantha's dialogue was overly campy, and Steve's was good for the most part, but the one scene was just horribly written, but then this is a video game. And I guess if one looks at it the dialogue wasn't that much worse than many of the other characters. I can pick Miranda's to death. Liara's. Shepard's. Face it, the dialogue was just bad at a lot of points. I suppose I'm just nitpicking the hell out of the series right now, and the dialogue is just ... bad. 

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 26 octobre 2013 - 04:16 .

[Steelcan]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Tell me, Julia. What supposed failures of Steve and Traynor are causing you to whine that BioWare "can barely write a gay character"?

Samantha's dialogue was quite campy, and Steve's was good for the most part, but the one scene was just horribly written, but then this is a video game. And I guess if one looks at it the dialogue wasn't that much worse than many of the other characters. I can pick Miranda's to death. Liara's. Shepard's. Face it, the dialogue was just bad at a lot of points. I suppose I'm just nitpicking the hell out of the series right now, and the dialogue is just ... bad. 

I agree.  The dialogue left much to be desired in many areas.

Only a few times did I actually feel like two characters were having a real conversation.

[Obadiah]

I guess Liara's father Matriarch Aethyta doesn't qualify as trans-sexual?

[dreamgazer]

Camp and ME's dialogue have gone hand-in-hand from the beginning, starting with some spectacular cheese in ME1. That's part of why I think this idea could go south very, very easily.

Modifié par dreamgazer, 26 octobre 2013 - 04:22 .

[Br3admax]

NeonFlux117 wrote...

This thread should be awe and enlightened when The Wise One- david, graces it's presence.

David7204 the voice of Reason on BSN.

In David We Trust.

It takes more than this to earn the Clique's favor, but you have done well. Reach true enlightenment; know what these words really mean.

[NeonFlux117]

I'm not a ****** or anything, but I felt Steve's character was well done. Steve's a good guy, just a little sad. Even if shepard doesn't romance him, Steve still views shepard as giving him a reason to live again. Shepard does that. He inspires people to be better and find hope. Well Paragon shep does, renegade shep is just... Well, he's just a d!ck really. Steve was a good guy, I'd hang out with him in real life. Just cause he's gay doesn't mean that his story needs special attention or more 'sensitivity' I think he expresses pretty well that losing his partner is killing him. I think Steve's arc is well done.

[Jorji Costava]

Steelcan wrote...

So why make the character transgender and not "cisgendered"

I'm confused as to why you need a special reason to make a character one rather than the other. A transgender character has to be thematically connected to the story, but it needn't be for the reason that the character is transgendered, just as Anderson's importance to the story doesn't consist in the fact that he's black or that he's from London.

David7204 wrote...

I don't see how you could have a character passively tell the player they're transsexual.

This is a fair criticism (the most reasonable I've heard, actually), but I'd like more clarification as to what constitutes an 'active discussion.' I'm probably not going to be able to respond tonight, though, as I'm likely to be otherwise occupied with work the rest of the evening.

EDIT: Fixed formatting

Modifié par osbornep, 26 octobre 2013 - 04:21 .

[Astartes Marine]

Obadiah wrote...
I guess Liara's father Matriarch Aethyta doesn't qualify as trans-sexual?

I would say 'no', since the whole race has the mono-gender thing going on.