206 réponses à ce sujet

[ClydeInTheShell]

Black Widow is still better, even if Caldari is trying to own the front page.

[megabeast37215]

For those console players who wish they could get rid of auto aim... Try shooting a running teammate... Watch how many of your bullets miss.

Most (90%+) need it far more than they would ever dare admit. Hell... I can honestly admit that I need it on console. This is with machine guns though... With Sniper Rifles, it can get pretty annoying. It's simply easier to work with it than to try to fight it.

[BridgeBurner]

megabeast37215 wrote...

For those console players who wish they could get rid of auto aim... Try shooting a running teammate... Watch how many of your bullets miss.

Most (90%+) need it far more than they would ever dare admit. Hell... I can honestly admit that I need it on console. This is with machine guns though... With Sniper Rifles, it can get pretty annoying. It's simply easier to work with it than to try to fight it.

Come to PC megabeast.

We have cookies and hot chicks.

Ok, we just have cookies, but you should still come to PC.

(disclaimer: apologies to any hot chicks that play PC that I might have inadvertently offended)

[LemurFromTheId]

Annomander wrote...

megabeast37215 wrote...

For those console players who wish they could get rid of auto aim... Try shooting a running teammate... Watch how many of your bullets miss.

Most (90%+) need it far more than they would ever dare admit. Hell... I can honestly admit that I need it on console. This is with machine guns though... With Sniper Rifles, it can get pretty annoying. It's simply easier to work with it than to try to fight it.

Come to PC megabeast.

We have cookies and hot chicks.

Ok, we just have cookies, but you should still come to PC.

(disclaimer: apologies to any hot chicks that play PC that I might have inadvertently offended)

Well, there's Kouzrah and her famous voice...

[HeroicMass]

megabeast37215 wrote...

For those console players who wish they could get rid of auto aim... Try shooting a running teammate... Watch how many of your bullets miss.

Most (90%+) need it far more than they would ever dare admit. Hell... I can honestly admit that I need it on console. This is with machine guns though... With Sniper Rifles, it can get pretty annoying. It's simply easier to work with it than to try to fight it.

agreed. There is a reason so many people struggled with Left 4 dead on console. 

[BridgeBurner]

Aedolon wrote...

Annomander wrote...

megabeast37215 wrote...

For those console players who wish they could get rid of auto aim... Try shooting a running teammate... Watch how many of your bullets miss.

Most (90%+) need it far more than they would ever dare admit. Hell... I can honestly admit that I need it on console. This is with machine guns though... With Sniper Rifles, it can get pretty annoying. It's simply easier to work with it than to try to fight it.

Come to PC megabeast.

We have cookies and hot chicks.

Ok, we just have cookies, but you should still come to PC.

(disclaimer: apologies to any hot chicks that play PC that I might have inadvertently offended)

Well, there's Kouzrah and her famous voice...

Kouzrah has already fallen before the might of me talking French to her on teamspeak.

"Where ze hell did you learn 'cochon d'inde'?"

[LemurFromTheId]

Annomander wrote...

Aedolon wrote...

Annomander wrote...

megabeast37215 wrote...

For those console players who wish they could get rid of auto aim... Try shooting a running teammate... Watch how many of your bullets miss.

Most (90%+) need it far more than they would ever dare admit. Hell... I can honestly admit that I need it on console. This is with machine guns though... With Sniper Rifles, it can get pretty annoying. It's simply easier to work with it than to try to fight it.

Come to PC megabeast.

We have cookies and hot chicks.

Ok, we just have cookies, but you should still come to PC.

(disclaimer: apologies to any hot chicks that play PC that I might have inadvertently offended)

Well, there's Kouzrah and her famous voice...

Kouzrah has already fallen before the might of me talking French to her on teamspeak.

"Where ze hell did you learn 'cochon d'inde'?"

Haha, we don't need hot chicks, then!

Come to PC, megabest. We have cookies and French-speaking Annomander!

[Evil]

megabeast37215 wrote...

For those console players who wish they could get rid of auto aim... Try shooting a running teammate... Watch how many of your bullets miss.

Most (90%+) need it far more than they would ever dare admit. Hell... I can honestly admit that I need it on console. This is with machine guns though... With Sniper Rifles, it can get pretty annoying. It's simply easier to work with it than to try to fight it.

Depends on the player to an extent, but it's certainly true that aiming on console is difficult compared to PC due to the advantage of keyboard and mouse.

That said, gears of war is a similar type of game to ME3MP, and the first three iterations lacked auto-aim, and hipfire even lacked a crosshairs, yet it's still possible to score noscope headshots with practice, and some people do.

I never reached the level of being able to use the GoW sniper rifle (the longshot) effectively against humans, but on horde I could pwn bots with it all day long, despite the lack of auto-aim, and I'm not a good shot.

The closest thing GoW had to auto-aim was a mild aim assist, that caused the controller sensitivity to drop for a second or so if you got the gun on target, to help keep it on target. it wouldn't move your aimpoint at all, only help you to maintain your aim once on target.

Some people call this sticky-aim or magnetic aim, not to be confused with magnetism, which I think is supposed to be an anti-lag mechanism from what I understand.

A (somewhat crappy) sticky-aim demonstration video, ironically mislabeled as auto-aim:
www.youtube.com/watch

Hopefully ME4 will use sticky aim on consoles rather than auto-aim, or better yet give it as one of three options, those being:
Auto-aim.
Sticky-aim.
Manual-aim.

Modifié par Evil Mastered, 26 octobre 2013 - 10:58 .

[BridgeBurner]

Evil Mastered wrote...

megabeast37215 wrote...

For those console players who wish they could get rid of auto aim... Try shooting a running teammate... Watch how many of your bullets miss.

Most (90%+) need it far more than they would ever dare admit. Hell... I can honestly admit that I need it on console. This is with machine guns though... With Sniper Rifles, it can get pretty annoying. It's simply easier to work with it than to try to fight it.

Depends on the player to an extent, but it's certainly true that aiming on console is difficult compared to PC due to the advantage of keyboard and mouse.

That said, gears of war is a similar type of game to ME3MP, and the first three iterations lacked auto-aim, and hipfire even lacked a crosshairs, yet it's still possible to score noscope headshots with practice, and some people do.

I never reached the level of being able to use the GoW sniper rifle (the longshot) effectively against humans, but on horde I could pwn bots with it all day long, despite the lack of auto-aim, and I'm not a good shot.

The closest thing GoW had to auto-aim was a mild aim assist, that caused the controller sensitivity to drop for a second or so if you got the gun on target, to help keep it on target. it wouldn't move your aimpoint at all, only help you to maintain your aim once on target.

Some people call this sticky-aim or magnetic aim, not to be confused with magnetism, which I think is supposed to be an anti-lag mechanism from what I understand.

A (somewhat crappy) sticky-aim demonstration video, ironically mislabeled as auto-aim:
www.youtube.com/watch

Hopefully ME4 will use sticky aim on consoles rather than auto-aim, or better yet give it as one of three options, those being:
Auto-aim.
Sticky-aim.
Manual-aim.

You already have Friction in ME3. Each weapon has an active friction multiplier, which works in both ADS and hipfire. The added benefit of the snap on ADS toggle simply allows greater margin for error in most cases.

Any glance at any of Uh Cold's videos will show you exactly how much the aim assist can be manipulated.

[Evil]

Annomander wrote...

You already have Friction in ME3. Each weapon has an active friction multiplier, which works in both ADS and hipfire. The added benefit of the snap on ADS toggle simply allows greater margin for error in most cases.

Any glance at any of Uh Cold's videos will show you exactly how much the aim assist can be manipulated.

Do we?  Oops.

I'm so used to it from gears I didn't even notice it, it just felt 'normal' if that makes sense, the auto-aim got all my attention, because I don't like having my imput over-ridden.

Still, my point still stands, giving players a choice over how much assistance to have, if any, is a better way to go than forcing it on everyone.

I think most console players would prefer the sticky-aim only option as I would, but it's better to give them the option to chose for themselves.

Modifié par Evil Mastered, 27 octobre 2013 - 12:06 .

[GordianKnot42]

Simba501 wrote...

Those who say autoaim is an instawin have not had it in their hands. Much more of an annoyance than anything else.

Autoaim is deadly on Swarmers.

[cato potato]

Simba501 wrote...

Those who say autoaim is an instawin have not had it in their hands. Much more of an annoyance than anything else.

It's certainly not an instawin but it helps a lot more than it hinders. It's just that when it's helpful I hardly notice and when it's not I want to headbutt my TV.

Still, I would rather it wasn't in there. It would make the game more challenging and remove just a little bit of the rage-inducing BS.

[LemurFromTheId]

GordianKnot42 wrote...

Simba501 wrote...

Those who say autoaim is an instawin have not had it in their hands. Much more of an annoyance than anything else.

Autoaim is deadly on Swarmers.

Especially with Javelin. Nothing beats Javelin when it comes to killing Swarmers. Except missiles, perhaps.

[Lucky]

cato_84 wrote...

It's certainly not an instawin but it helps a lot more than it hinders. It's just that when it's helpful I hardly notice and when it's not I want to headbutt my TV.

Still, I would rather it wasn't in there. It would make the game more challenging and remove just a little bit of the rage-inducing BS.

This post represents my thoughts exactly (however you BSN hipsters make a TM superscript).

[Pearl (rip bioware)]

rlucht wrote...

cato_84 wrote...

It's certainly not an instawin but it helps a lot more than it hinders. It's just that when it's helpful I hardly notice and when it's not I want to headbutt my TV.

Still, I would rather it wasn't in there. It would make the game more challenging and remove just a little bit of the rage-inducing BS.

This post represents my thoughts exactly (however you BSN hipsters make a TM superscript).

Full Editor > gray cube thing in the toolbar, second from the right > bottom row

[Heldarion]

FatherOfPearl wrote...

rlucht wrote...

cato_84 wrote...

It's certainly not an instawin but it helps a lot more than it hinders. It's just that when it's helpful I hardly notice and when it's not I want to headbutt my TV.

Still, I would rather it wasn't in there. It would make the game more challenging and remove just a little bit of the rage-inducing BS.

This post represents my thoughts exactly (however you BSN hipsters make a TM superscript).

Full Editor > gray cube thing in the toolbar, second from the right > bottom row

Alt+0153

That or google it then copy+pasta.

[Simba501]

GordianKnot42 wrote...

Simba501 wrote...

Those who say autoaim is an instawin have not had it in their hands. Much more of an annoyance than anything else.

Autoaim is deadly on Swarmers.

[iOnlySignIn]

Can anybody confirm if the Black Widow has shorter stagger animations than the Javelin?

Namely, enemies hit by the Black Widow recover a lot faster from the stagger than those hit by the Javelin.

Been testing Black Widow on Platinum with the SI (previously only used Javelin on him) and I found that while I kill armored units (especially Brutes and Atlases) a lot faster and hence score a bit higher, I get killed much more often by Geth Hunters and Geth Pyros.

A Geth Hunter for example would be shot by my Black Widow, get staggered, and recover before I am able to fire a second shot, and shoot his GPS to stagger (and usually kill) me instead. With the Javelin I never had this problem - I can stagger lock him effectively (or rather, I almost always OSK him, can't decide which). Same with the Geth Pyro - a Black Widow shot does not stagger him at all, whereas a Javelin shot does (or does it?).

And there's the famous stagger on the Praetorian, where you hit a headshot on it from the front which induces it to roll back. I've been able to do this consistently with the Javelin but rarely if ever with the Black Widow.

These are perhaps reasons why even if their wallhacking abilities are effectively the same (stack Heavy Barrel + Piercing + Drill Ammo) the Javelin still makes you more survivable because it provides better CC.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 27 octobre 2013 - 08:36 .

[BridgeBurner]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Can anybody confirm if the Black Widow has shorter stagger animations than the Javelin?

Namely, enemies hit by the Black Widow recover a lot faster from the stagger than those hit by the Javelin.

Been testing Black Widow on Platinum with the SI (previously only used Javelin on him) and I found that while I kill armored units (especially Brutes and Atlases) a lot faster and hence score a bit higher, I get killed much more often by Geth Hunters and Geth Pyros.

A Geth Hunter for example would be shot by my Black Widow, get staggered, and recover before I am able to fire a second shot, and shoot his GPS to stagger (and usually kill) me instead. With the Javelin I never had this problem - I can stagger lock him effectively (or rather, I almost always OSK him, can't decide which). Same with the Geth Pyro - a Black Widow shot does not stagger him at all, whereas a Javelin shot does (or does it?).

And there's the famous stagger on the Praetorian, where you hit a headshot on it from the front which induces it to roll back. I've been able to do this consistently with the Javelin but rarely if ever with the Black Widow.

These are perhaps reasons why even if their wallhacking abilities are effectively the same (stack Heavy Barrel + Piercing + Drill Ammo) the Javelin still makes you more survivable because it provides better CC.

Weapons have the same chance of staggering enemies (enemies have a "hitreactionchance" variable). I've not quite worked out how this functions (perhaps ask cyonan) but it seems that enemies are immune to a lot of force based things (heavy stagger animations are included here) when they still have shields. For instance, you can ragdoll unshielded targets but can't ragdoll shielded ones.

Armoured targets are also much less likely to stagger than un-armoured ones. And ballistic weapons like the GPS have some override which causes mooks to stagger on each full hit.

It's possible, that even though each weapon has the same base % chance of causing the enemy to play hit reactions, it's more than likely that certain weapons archetypes (found in the "damagetype" section modify the chances of playing hit reactions, and it's more than likely that weapons like the javelin and the widow have their own special hit reaction modifiers due to being single shot.

This is strictly mooks we're talking about here; shielded boss units wil simply not stagger due to weapon damage and only very high force attacks will cause them to stagger.

Might go dig around in the damagetype files to see if I can track down anything concretet in regards to this.

Modifié par Annomander, 27 octobre 2013 - 11:56 .

[MaxShine]

So which one is better now? GI?

Modifié par MaxShine, 27 octobre 2013 - 12:58 .

[Fortack]

I apologize for derailing the thread with the console aim-assist, aimbot, rage inducing BS or whatever you call it, thing. I merely tried to troll an obvious troll.

However, it does make me wonder why the Javelin isn't the designated OHK sniper rifle for console scrubs. First because body shots are usually sufficient to kill a target with the Javelin where the Black Widow requires a headshot, and second because the Javelin's fire delay sounds like an ideal mechanic to make small corrections to hit things exactly where you want. Aim-assist should favor the Javelin a lot more than the Black Widow as far as I can see.

[Lucky]

Fortack wrote...

I apologize for derailing the thread with the console aim-assist, aimbot, rage inducing BS or whatever you call it, thing. I merely tried to troll an obvious troll.

However, it does make me wonder why the Javelin isn't the designated OHK sniper rifle for console scrubs. First because body shots are usually sufficient to kill a target with the Javelin where the Black Widow requires a headshot, and second because the Javelin's fire delay sounds like an ideal mechanic to make small corrections to hit things exactly where you want. Aim-assist should favor the Javelin a lot more than the Black Widow as far as I can see.

Javelin is certainly my favored OHK sniper. I hit a far larger percentage of my shots and hit them faster when I don't try to make every shot a headshot. Quite frankly, I don't care if that does make me a scrub.

Javelin gives faster OHK mook kills while the black widow with ap or warp ammo gives still quite fast 2 hit kills on mooks and destroys bosses much faster. For that reason, IMO the Javelin is the better of the two on gold and BW is the better of the two on plat.

At least for the way I play.

[Deerber]

Fortack wrote...

I apologize for derailing the thread with the console aim-assist, aimbot, rage inducing BS or whatever you call it, thing. I merely tried to troll an obvious troll.

However, it does make me wonder why the Javelin isn't the designated OHK sniper rifle for console scrubs. First because body shots are usually sufficient to kill a target with the Javelin where the Black Widow requires a headshot, and second because the Javelin's fire delay sounds like an ideal mechanic to make small corrections to hit things exactly where you want. Aim-assist should favor the Javelin a lot more than the Black Widow as far as I can see.

My point exactly.

[iOnlySignIn]

Annomander wrote...

Weapons have the same chance of staggering enemies (enemies have a "hitreactionchance" variable). I've not quite worked out how this functions (perhaps ask cyonan) but it seems that enemies are immune to a lot of force based things (heavy stagger animations are included here) when they still have shields. For instance, you can ragdoll unshielded targets but can't ragdoll shielded ones.

Armoured targets are also much less likely to stagger than un-armoured ones. And ballistic weapons like the GPS have some override which causes mooks to stagger on each full hit.

It's possible, that even though each weapon has the same base % chance of causing the enemy to play hit reactions, it's more than likely that certain weapons archetypes (found in the "damagetype" section modify the chances of playing hit reactions, and it's more than likely that weapons like the javelin and the widow have their own special hit reaction modifiers due to being single shot.

This is strictly mooks we're talking about here; shielded boss units wil simply not stagger due to weapon damage and only very high force attacks will cause them to stagger.

Might go dig around in the damagetype files to see if I can track down anything concretet in regards to this.

I think stagger chance may also be related to damage per shot.

At the very least the Praetorian rollback thing must follow this - I can do that consistently with no other weapon than the Javelin.

Did more testing, conclusions vs. Hunters and Pyros (no equipments, Platinum, SI):

(1) With Hunters it's not so much a problem of stagger as it is with OSK. Javelin can kill a Hunter with 1 headshot or 2 body shots. Black Widow can't do either of that - you need more shots to kill, so even if the stagger animations are the same the Hunter has much better chance to recover and retaliate against a Black Widow user, especially at close range.

(2) With Pyros it's something about their tank explosion mechanism. With the Javelin, 1 shot will almost always induces a tank explosion, headshot or no - this effectively means Javelin will always OSK Pyros. Black Widow cannot OSK Pyros with or without headshot (no equipments), and 1 shot almost never induces the tank explosion.

This cannot have anything to do with penetration - with Heavy Barrels both weapons should be able to penetrate a Pyro completely. I think it has to do with single shot damage - Pyro's tank won't explode unless it's hit by a shot of sufficient damage (enough to strip its Shields, for example).

So these are the reasons why I think the Javelin is superior to the Black Widow vs. Hunters and Pyros.

The Javelin is also better vs. Phantoms obviously because of the OSK (Black Widow needs 2 shots, between which it's easy for teammates to mess you up by staggering the Phantom ).

Against Armored boss units (Atlas, Brute, Ravager, Scion, perhaps Banshee) Black Widow is superior due to higher DPS.

Against Geth Primes I'd give it to the Javelin because it's easier to avoid LOS. VS Geth Primes, LOS = death.

Against Praetorians Javelin has a much better chance to induce its roll back animation.

So yeah, Javelin is definitely better vs. Geth and probably better vs. Cerberus. But Black Widow is better vs. Reapers and perhaps Collectors too.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 27 octobre 2013 - 10:26 .

[DHKany]

oh my god this thread is still going.

Of all the people ****ing here, Reefa wins.

Just use whatever the f**k you like, no need to discuss which gun is superior to the other when both of them are pretty amazeballs anyways.