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[Kel Riever]

TROLL THREAD

OP is just terrible at Mantis and needs a crutch.

[78stonewobble]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

Annomander wrote...

Weapons have the same chance of staggering enemies (enemies have a "hitreactionchance" variable). I've not quite worked out how this functions (perhaps ask cyonan) but it seems that enemies are immune to a lot of force based things (heavy stagger animations are included here) when they still have shields. For instance, you can ragdoll unshielded targets but can't ragdoll shielded ones.

Armoured targets are also much less likely to stagger than un-armoured ones. And ballistic weapons like the GPS have some override which causes mooks to stagger on each full hit.

It's possible, that even though each weapon has the same base % chance of causing the enemy to play hit reactions, it's more than likely that certain weapons archetypes (found in the "damagetype" section modify the chances of playing hit reactions, and it's more than likely that weapons like the javelin and the widow have their own special hit reaction modifiers due to being single shot.

This is strictly mooks we're talking about here; shielded boss units wil simply not stagger due to weapon damage and only very high force attacks will cause them to stagger.

Might go dig around in the damagetype files to see if I can track down anything concretet in regards to this.

I think stagger chance may also be related to damage per shot.

At the very least the Praetorian rollback thing must follow this - I can do that consistently with no other weapon than the Javelin.

Did more testing, conclusions vs. Hunters and Pyros (no equipments, Platinum, SI):

(1) With Hunters it's not so much a problem of stagger as it is with OSK. Javelin can kill a Hunter with 1 headshot or 2 body shots. Black Widow can't do either of that - you need more shots to kill, so even if the stagger animations are the same the Hunter has much better chance to recover and retaliate against a Black Widow user, especially at close range.

(2) With Pyros it's something about their tank explosion mechanism. With the Javelin, 1 shot will almost always induces a tank explosion, headshot or no - this effectively means Javelin will always OSK Pyros. Black Widow cannot OSK Pyros with or without headshot (no equipments), and 1 shot almost never induces the tank explosion.

This cannot have anything to do with penetration - with Heavy Barrels both weapons should be able to penetrate a Pyro completely. I think it has to do with single shot damage - Pyro's tank won't explode unless it's hit by a shot of sufficient damage (enough to strip its Shields, for example).

So these are the reasons why I think the Javelin is superior to the Black Widow vs. Hunters and Pyros.

The Javelin is also better vs. Phantoms obviously because of the OSK (Black Widow needs 2 shots, between which it's easy for teammates to mess you up by staggering the Phantom ).

Against Armored boss units (Atlas, Brute, Ravager, Scion, perhaps Banshee) Black Widow is superior due to higher DPS.

Against Geth Primes I'd give it to the Javelin because it's easier to avoid LOS. VS Geth Primes, LOS = death.

Against Praetorians Javelin has a much better chance to induce its roll back animation.

So yeah, Javelin is definitely better vs. Geth and probably better vs. Cerberus. But Black Widow is better vs. Reapers and perhaps Collectors too.

A few reservations to that conclusion.

It assumes a perfect 100 percent hit to shot ratio (never miss). If you miss a javelin shot you do 0 damage between time spent (wasted) on reloading, with a BW you can still do 1/3-2/3 of the maximum potential damage between time spent (wasted) on reloading. You can quickly follow up.

It compaires on a 1 Javelin shot to 1 BW shot ratio. I've not precision timed it, but I'm pretty sure that it is quite possible to land 2 or 3 BW shots on target in not much more time than it takes for the javelin til fire it's 1 shot. Potentially doing as much as 66 percent more damage than the Javelin to any single target or upto 3 targets in pretty much the same amount of time.

OHK is important if you only have 1 shot available. Not quite as important if you have more shots available and can consistently land successive hits.

Offcourse also based on the assumption that you more or less allways "ripplefire" 2-3 shots from the BW.

Modifié par 78stonewobble, 27 octobre 2013 - 11:17 .

[iOnlySignIn]

^ I miss more with the Black Widow than I do with the Javelin because there's less time for me to aim (even quickscoping requires time to prepare). Also with the Javelin if I know I can kill an enemy with a body shot I won't even bother with headshotting, allowing me to aim faster, miss less, and futher reduce ttk.

OSK is not about damage output to me. It's about survivability. If I don't OSK a Geth Hunter on Platinum at mid to close range chances are I will die very soon. Even with Energy Drain + Proximity Mine on my side, Hunters will be able to kill me in the middle of being staggered and with 15% health left, as they usually do.

Still, this is all done with no equipments on Platinum. If you stack Disruptor Ammo IV and Sniper Rifle Amp III you would probably be able to OSK Hunters and Phantoms on Platinum with the Black Widow, but I never tried.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 27 octobre 2013 - 11:24 .

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

Kel Riever wrote...

TROLL THREAD

OP is just terrible.

Fix'd.

[geezer117]

Javelin optics are so atrocious that I miss too often. For me, that's all that counts.

[Pearl (rip bioware)]

This thread is a stupid.

[LemurFromTheId]

78stonewobble wrote...

I've not precision timed it, but I'm pretty sure that it is quite possible to land 2 or 3 BW shots on target in not much more time than it takes for the javelin til fire it's 1 shot. Potentially doing as much as 66 percent more damage than the Javelin to any single target or upto 3 targets in pretty much the same amount of time.

You must be joking.

[78stonewobble]

Aedolon wrote...

78stonewobble wrote...

I've not precision timed it, but I'm pretty sure that it is quite possible to land 2 or 3 BW shots on target in not much more time than it takes for the javelin til fire it's 1 shot. Potentially doing as much as 66 percent more damage than the Javelin to any single target or upto 3 targets in pretty much the same amount of time.

You must be joking.

Uhm no.... I'd say that it very approximately takes around 1-1,5 second to fire off all 3 BW shots.

...

Offcourse it might only be possible on the pc with a mouse. It seems very natural to me to counteract the recoil and keep the crosshairs on target. How it is on the consoles I have no idea.

Modifié par 78stonewobble, 28 octobre 2013 - 12:09 .

[Pearl (rip bioware)]

78stonewobble wrote...

Aedolon wrote...

78stonewobble wrote...

I've not precision timed it, but I'm pretty sure that it is quite possible to land 2 or 3 BW shots on target in not much more time than it takes for the javelin til fire it's 1 shot. Potentially doing as much as 66 percent more damage than the Javelin to any single target or upto 3 targets in pretty much the same amount of time.

You must be joking.

Uhm no.... I'd say that it very approximately takes around 1-1,5 second to fire off all 3 BW shots.

Only on a Marksman class.

the BW's default fire rate is 60rpm, or one shot per second.

[LemurFromTheId]

78stonewobble wrote...

Aedolon wrote...

78stonewobble wrote...

I've not precision timed it, but I'm pretty sure that it is quite possible to land 2 or 3 BW shots on target in not much more time than it takes for the javelin til fire it's 1 shot. Potentially doing as much as 66 percent more damage than the Javelin to any single target or upto 3 targets in pretty much the same amount of time.

You must be joking.

Uhm no.... I'd say that it very approximately takes around 1-1,5 second to fire off all 3 BW shots.

...

Offcourse it might only be possible on the pc with a mouse. It seems very natural to me to counteract the recoil and keep the crosshairs on target. How it is on the consoles I have no idea.

It takes 2 seconds to fire all three BW shots on full auto.

It takes 0.25 seconds to fire the one Javelin shot.

"Not much more time" ...right.

[Alfonsedode]

so what s the DPS with both gun without reload cancel ?

[NuclearTech76]

alfonsedode wrote...

so what s the DPS with both gun without reload cancel ?

BW multiclip wo RC 464.22. Javelin multiclip wo RC 379.14.

[Creator Limbs]

FatherOfPearl wrote...

This thread is a stupid.

This thread is perfectly living up to the standards implemented throughout the site.

[David Diablo]

prostheticlimbs wrote...

FatherOfPearl wrote...

This thread is a stupid.

This thread is perfectly living up to the standards implemented throughout the site.

QFT

[78stonewobble]

[quote]FatherOfPearl wrote...

Uhm no.... I'd say that it very approximately takes around 1-1,5 second to fire off all 3 BW shots. [/quote]
Only on a Marksman class.

the BW's default fire rate is 60rpm, or one shot per second.

[/quote]

From the weapon stats chart right? And is supposed to be the weapons maximum firing rate assuming it had an endless clip and no delays anywhere (full auto)?

Versus the javelins time of 0,857 sec.

PS: Which makes me off the mark by a whopping 100-200 percent. ... Aedolon on the other hand missed the mark by 243 percent. For those keeping score...  It's so rare we can prove people objectively more wrong.

[LemurFromTheId]

78stonewobble wrote...

FatherOfPearl wrote...

78stonewobble wrote...

Uhm no.... I'd say that it very approximately takes around 1-1,5 second to fire off all 3 BW shots.

Only on a Marksman class.

the BW's default fire rate is 60rpm, or one shot per second.

From the weapon stats chart right? And is supposed to be the weapons maximum firing rate assuming it had an endless clip and no delays anywhere (full auto)?

Versus the javelins time of 0,857 sec.

PS: Which makes me off the mark by a whopping 100-200 percent. ... Aedolon on the other hand missed the mark by 243 percent. For those keeping score...  It's so rare we can prove people objectively more wrong.

Have you ever actually used Javelin? Or Black Widow, for that matter?

It takes Javelin 0.25 seconds to fire its shot from the moment you press the trigger. ROF doesn't enter into it. It's a single-shot weapon.

Black Widow has a three-shot magazine. It has a ROF of 60, so it shoots one round per second. Therefore it takes two seconds from the trigger pull for it to empy its magazine. No need to assume "an endless clip and no delays anywhere". It's a full-auto weapon anyway, though it wouldn't matter even if it wasn't.

I didn't miss the mark, you did. And you keep missing it. Stop reading values from a chart when you clearly don't know what those values mean.

Modifié par Aedolon, 28 octobre 2013 - 08:25 .

[78stonewobble]

Aedolon wrote...



Have you ever actually used Javelin? Or Black Widow, for that matter?

It takes Javelin 0.25 seconds to fire its shot from the moment you press the trigger. ROF doesn't enter into it. It's a single-shot weapon.

Black Widow has a three-shot magazine. It has a ROF of 60, so it shoots one round per second. Therefore it takes two seconds from the trigger pull for it to empy its magazine. No need to assume "an endless clip and no delays anywhere". It's a full-auto weapon anyway, though it wouldn't matter even if it wasn't.

I didn't miss the mark, you did. And you keep missing it. Stop reading values from a chart when you clearly don't know what those values mean.

I had to guestimate because lazy people spouts numbers as fact all day without backing them up, but you are right. It's right there in the stats.

What's also there is the higher DPS of the BW both with and without reload cancelling. Which numerically makes it the best gun. Leaving which gun is best back in the "real" world in the hands of the individual user. Which one am I most proficient with, and if there is a difference is that difference enough to affect my damage output relatively negatively.

[Titus Thongger]

black widow is too easy to use. point, shoot, win.

javelin gets you style points. and in a game this easy to beat style counts for a lot

[LemurFromTheId]

78stonewobble wrote...

What's also there is the higher DPS of the BW both with and without reload cancelling. Which numerically makes it the best gun.

DPS is just one number. Time To Kill (TTK) is another. Higher DPS doesn't always mean lower TTK (a trivial example being that Javelin can one-shot enemies BW can't). Besides, the DPS difference between these weapons is roughly one percent, which is absolutely insignificant.

Which weapon is better depends on other factors entirely. On some kits/builds BW is better. On others Javelin is better. For one playstyle BW is better. For another Javelin is better.

[Alfonsedode]

NuclearTech76 wrote...

alfonsedode wrote...

so what s the DPS with both gun without reload cancel ?

BW multiclip wo RC 464.22. Javelin multiclip wo RC 379.14.

Thx, the difference should be smaller with reload cancel ... But more than 1 % between the 2.
Well anyway, both gun seem excellent, feeling must prevail

[NuclearTech76]

alfonsedode wrote...

NuclearTech76 wrote...

alfonsedode wrote...

so what s the DPS with both gun without reload cancel ?

BW multiclip wo RC 464.22. Javelin multiclip wo RC 379.14.

Thx, the difference should be smaller with reload cancel ... But more than 1 % between the 2.
Well anyway, both gun seem excellent, feeling must prevail

The DPS with RCing is close with around a 10 DPS difference for the BW but the Javelin surpasses that on a Geth because of the Geth passive bonus. That said the BW is better in game because that on paper DPS can be spread on infantry faster with less overkill. Javelin probably slays elites a wee bit faster but it's close there as well.

[Max Dmian]

Only slightly because of 3 shots vs. single shot.
If DPS was the determining factor, we'd be talking about the Valiant.

[planehazza]

Perhaps, but the Javelin sounds soooo good

[DHKany]

DPS is a crappy way to measure single/2 shots as they usually deal some ludicrous damage per shot.

Javelin has a .25 TTK on platinum mooks, and can 4-6 shot platinum bosses.

Black Widow got nothin on that.

[Jaun Shepard]

I am Jaun Shepard and this is the new wraith vs claymoar thread on the BSN.