196 réponses à ce sujet

[Erez Kristal]

Arcian wrote...


Besides the fact that you need to break away from this pet idea of yours that the Citadel is a giant 6-star hotel with exorbitant costs for everyone who lives there, you're also confusing high living costs with a strong currency.
The dirham used in Dubai is worth about 1/4 of a dollar. The yen is worth close to 1/100 of a dollar. Yet Dubai and Tokyo are still a crazy expensive places despite their weak currencies. And those weak currencies are exactly why they get so much tourism. Middle-class families can still afford to live in both of these cities - they simply can't enjoy luxuries. And both of these places have low-cost alternatives. Every city does. The same goes for the Citadel.

Your problem, Erezike, is that you refuse to acknowledge the credit costs in-game as illegitimate. You are basing your ENTIRE argument on the flimsy premise that BioWare put a lot of thought into the in-game credit system. As I've tried to tell you numerous times, they didn't. All numbers are arbitrarily chosen for the sole purpose of draining the player's credit reserves.

Once you get past this, you can get to creating a proper, realistic currency system that doesn't hyperinflate and murder the economy of every species using the currency.

yes people dont live in airports. the cost of credits for fish in the citadel doesnt apply for cost of credits on earth or surkesh. just because a scour fish on the citadel cost 25$ wont prevent it from costing 5$ on surkesh o3$ on earth.

Just like swiizerland - basel is deadly expensive but if you cross the road and head to germany you will be able to buy things for less than half the price.

5- stars hotels can be cheapers in some locations than a eight beds rooms in others.


buy saying 1 credit = 5 dollars we dont imply that it is as expensive everywhere else.

Ps - we have to base our currency on the ingame information, we may discard a few items. but if we discard all of them we would have nothing to base our currency on. we will be working in vaccum.

And if you are going to use a low $ exchange you are going to need to justify in game nunmers.

Modifié par erezike, 29 octobre 2013 - 08:55 .

[Erez Kristal]

I updated the charts. based on feedback and further lore comparisons. i am planning to add the asari and salarian military expenditure next along with detailed explanations for the maintenance and the Infrastructure which take a healthy part of the big three budgets.



I also want to elaborate on economic misconceptions i have seen here mostly by brought up by arcian.
very low human unemplyoment rates- Very low unemployment rates would push towards faster industrial automation, greater use of VI's, higher salaries and a stronger deamand for alien workers.
All of these we already seen in the mass effect game(aliens working for humans corporations:noveria, feros, cerberus) and in the ingame lore system alliance military - the alliance military is using more drones than any other military.
and in hanne kedar - the popular human mechs company.
the lack of personnal is also why the alliance is so hard pushing towards creating AI.

Inflation and the value of low currency : the reason why countries like germandy who use the euro still manage to compete with countries like china is better industrial automation and better quality goods. this increases the gdp of of germany. (afcourse the euro issue is much more complex topic to discuss than just a few a words here.)
it would also be true to say that weak european countries like greece were damaged when they switched to high value coin due to low industrial automation in their countries. they were unable to compete with the large automation in germany and also had less  to offer in terms of high tech development.
 

Modifié par erezike, 29 octobre 2013 - 10:30 .

[Wulfram]

I think your military expenditure rates are too high, except for Turians and maybe Batarians. This is not a highly militarised galaxy at all, and your high population makes it even less so. Nor do I get the impression humanity is the highly militarised culture implied by such peace time expenditure.

For the Asari, Volus and Salarians I'd boost their GDP per Capita rather than cut their spending.

As for humanity, I'd note that the only concrete comparison we've got of relatively military strengths is Dreadnough counts, and that humanity has about a 5th of Turian numbers - of course the Farixen limits are artificial, but humanity wasn't actually hitting them in ME1. And with their more limited spending on colonial defence, I wouldn't really expect them to have a low proportion of their spending on Dreadnoughts. So I think you could cut Alliance spending in half from what you're giving them.

[Erez Kristal]

Wulfram wrote...

I think your military expenditure rates are too high, except for Turians and maybe Batarians. This is not a highly militarised galaxy at all, and your high population makes it even less so. Nor do I get the impression humanity is the highly militarised culture implied by such peace time expenditure.

For the Asari, Volus and Salarians I'd boost their GDP per Capita rather than cut their spending.

As for humanity, I'd note that the only concrete comparison we've got of relatively military strengths is Dreadnough counts, and that humanity has about a 5th of Turian numbers - of course the Farixen limits are artificial, but humanity wasn't actually hitting them in ME1. And with their more limited spending on colonial defence, I wouldn't really expect them to have a low proportion of their spending on Dreadnoughts. So I think you could cut Alliance spending in half from what you're giving them.

Alliance is under war time and is also enjoying an economical golden age.
If they were on an average economy i agree. their spending would need to be cut down. 
but since they are vastly wealthy at the moment their population can handle it. it is also the corporates interest to have a highly militarized humanity. human companies want to sell alliance thier military products(firgates, infantry equipment and etc) and stronger military also means an ability to continue to expand. which is the main source of wealth for humanity. more colonies mean cheaper ezzo and other materials like when norway discovered the oil.

Humanity is also under war in the last 15 years. pirates, blitz, random terrorists, geth and collectors. they are also pushing for higher influence in the council and promoting their fleets as part of the citadel fleets. 

the interest for the alliance to spend a lot on its military is obviously there. the only set back are the taxes on the population. and since these are wealthy times with a lot of pressure from alien attacks they can afford the high taxes and military a spending.

As for the salarian and asari gdp. the asari are a lazy race, they mostly profits from controlling market prices and biotic amps. but they are the main consumers for the biotic amps as biotics are very rare in other races(human included)

Since the asari are the biggest nation its not enough for them to control the ezzo prices in order to have a crazier gdp. take notice that their current gdp is of canada a coutnry with vast amount of resources and an educated population.

The salarian are educated people. but not all of them are good business men. a scientist would make a lot of money in the real world. but a scientist will never be in the same league as a good business man or manager.
-it is also important to note that not all salarians are scientists(nassana tower, mercs) and that not all scientists research monetarily benefitial researchs.(take seashells/keepers for example)

[Erez Kristal]

I updated the salarian and batarian charts and corrected the turian chart.

[silverexile17s]

erezike wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

I think your military expenditure rates are too high, except for Turians and maybe Batarians. This is not a highly militarised galaxy at all, and your high population makes it even less so. Nor do I get the impression humanity is the highly militarised culture implied by such peace time expenditure.

For the Asari, Volus and Salarians I'd boost their GDP per Capita rather than cut their spending.

As for humanity, I'd note that the only concrete comparison we've got of relatively military strengths is Dreadnough counts, and that humanity has about a 5th of Turian numbers - of course the Farixen limits are artificial, but humanity wasn't actually hitting them in ME1. And with their more limited spending on colonial defence, I wouldn't really expect them to have a low proportion of their spending on Dreadnoughts. So I think you could cut Alliance spending in half from what you're giving them.

Alliance is under war time and is also enjoying an economical golden age.
If they were on an average economy i agree. their spending would need to be cut down. 
but since they are vastly wealthy at the moment their population can handle it. it is also the corporates interest to have a highly militarized humanity. human companies want to sell alliance thier military products(firgates, infantry equipment and etc) and stronger military also means an ability to continue to expand. which is the main source of wealth for humanity. more colonies mean cheaper ezzo and other materials like when norway discovered the oil.

Humanity is also under war in the last 15 years. pirates, blitz, random terrorists, geth and collectors. they are also pushing for higher influence in the council and promoting their fleets as part of the citadel fleets. 

the interest for the alliance to spend a lot on its military is obviously there. the only set back are the taxes on the population. and since these are wealthy times with a lot of pressure from alien attacks they can afford the high taxes and military a spending.

As for the salarian and asari gdp. the asari are a lazy race, they mostly profits from controlling market prices and biotic amps. but they are the main consumers for the biotic amps as biotics are very rare in other races(human included)

Since the asari are the biggest nation its not enough for them to control the ezzo prices in order to have a crazier gdp. take notice that their current gdp is of canada a coutnry with vast amount of resources and an educated population.

The salarian are educated people. but not all of them are good business men. a scientist would make a lot of money in the real world. but a scientist will never be in the same league as a good business man or manager.
-it is also important to note that not all salarians are scientists(nassana tower, mercs) and that not all scientists research monetarily benefitial researchs.(take seashells/keepers for example)

Dude, @Wulfram's right -- you really are overestimating the galaxy. Big time.
To start- No, the Alliance isn't under "War Time." They haven't been since the Skyllian Blitz. And as shown in the games, it takes the Alliance three years to rebuild their effective fleet strength after the Battle of the Citadel. In terms of Galactic equivilants, they are on an average economy. It's basically a scaled-up version of what we already have --- the exact same thing, only on a larger scale.
And it's shown in the Codex that humans are the weakest species on the Council in terms of both military and wealth. They have none of the massive reserves of wealth the asari have, nor the massive fleets of the turians. Their fiscal worth is matched by the Hanar. They're regarded as a "sleeping giant" because they have the potential, but haven't capitolized on it. Bu galactic standards, they are nowhere near "vastly wealthy." That's a gross overestimation of the Alliance's value in the galaxy at large.
And according to the Galactic Codex, only 5% of Humanity comprises the Alliance. The Alliance is comprised of volunteer enlistments. They aren't anywhere near a "highly militerized humanity." The turians outstrip them completely because conscription is required for every single turian.
You seem to actually be describing the turians, and how they got to where they are in the galaxy, more then you are humans.

That's not war. Those are simple security enforcements. An actual war is a full-scale conflict against an enemy military faction that encompasses either an entire planet, or several planets. Anything less - like pirates and slave raiders - is simply border patrol. True wars would be the Skyllian Blitz, or the Krogan Rebellions, or the Rachni Wars. Humanity has not been in an active state of war for over fifteen years.

Untrue. Only 5% of humanity comprises the Alliance. Humanity is regarded as the jack-of-all-trades in the galaxy. A Sentinel in class -- excelling in nothing but proficiant in everything. Humanity is a diffused presence. It's not geared spicifically toward wealth (like the asari), military (like the turians), scientific advancement (like the salarians), cultural development (hanar, elcor), or fiscial domination (volus). They maintain presances in all of it., but don't major in any of it. And if you think these are "wealthy times" for the Alliance compared to everything else, I direct you to look at the asari. Humans are at the bottom of the pack among the Council races. Especally with things like the Eden Prime War, and then the Collector attacks.

Untrue. The asari are regarded as the most technologically advanced race in the galaxy. They export all manner of things -- they are literally the trade mogoals of the galaxy. The volus manage the bank accounts of the galaxy and the money, but the asari are the mainstream source of the actual products that generate those credits. They are lazy with their military and in making swift developments -- that's what the turians are for.

That makes no difference -- you can't anthrmorphize asari by taking how a human country works and trying to use that as a demographic. It would be inaccurate 100% of the time. Asari may look close to us, but they aren't human. They won't make the same choices -- different cultural standards and so-forth.

That, again, is benign anthromorphism. The best politicions are the ones with the most information -- and no-one gets more information then the salarians. They are highly intelligent -- stratagizing and scientific reasoning can apply to the trading and monopolizing of goods, or the predictions of stock markets. To say that they wouldn't do as well is judgemental and, in my opinion, a bit bigotory. It's like saying you can't teach a hanar to kill -- which Zaeed Massani can attest to being a false statement, as he was nearly strangled to death by a hanar hitman.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 31 octobre 2013 - 06:35 .

[Erez Kristal]

silverexile17s wrote...


Dude, @Wulfram's right -- you really are overestimating the galaxy. Big time.
To start- No, the Alliance isn't under "War Time." They haven't been since the Skyllian Blitz. A

That's not war. Those are simple security enforcements. An actual war is a full-scale conflict against an enemy military faction that encompasses either an entire planet, or several planets. Anything less - like pirates and slave raiders - is simply border patrol. True wars would be the Skyllian Blitz, or the Krogan Rebellions, or the Rachni Wars. Humanity has not been in an active state of war for over fifteen years.

Untrue. Only 5% of humanity comprises the Alliance. Humanity is regarded as the jack-of-all-trades in the galaxy. A Sentinel in class -- excelling in nothing but proficiant in everything. Humanity is a diffused presence. It's not geared spicifically toward wealth (like the asari), military (like the turians), scientific advancement (like the salarians), cultural development (hanar, elcor), or fiscial domination (volus). They maintain presances in all of it., but don't major in any of it. And if you think these are "wealthy times" for the Alliance compared to everything else, I direct you to look at the asari. Humans are at the bottom of the pack among the Council races. Especally with things like the Eden Prime War, and then the Collector attacks.

two of these parts are false and the third i dont know the source for. 
1) overestimating the galaxy - the galaxy in mass effect have trillions of people living it spread over dozens of races. some are major the other who we dont see are minor. if you think the spread is different please offer you alternatve spread which would fit the 3 trillions or more demographic.
2) humans arent sentiels. humans have are great diversity in their skills. this means they have some of the best business man. some of the best scientists some of the best troops. the difference between a jack of all trades and this. is that jack of all trades tend not to reach to the top becasue he is to spread out. while humanity have cleary proven their ability to reach the top with the sitra foundationm ashland refienry, henry lawson. military capabilities per vessel. and scientifc breakthroughs(edi, normandy, overlord, ) this diversity means you can have people doing what they do best on a broader range of jobs. unlike the asari who are good at talking or the salarian who are good at inventing things. or the volus who make for good business men but little more or the turians who only make for dicipline soldiers.

3) first there is a geth war going on, in case you have noticed. secondly the system alliance recognized the reaper threat but didnt go public with it. 3) terror attacks. 4) 12 human colonies went were abducted and dozens more were attack add to that ashland refinery attacks. humanity is at the state of war. i dont know how many colonies humanity has but if we a assume a little more than two hundred colonies than it means at least 10% of their colonies were systematically attacked by pirates, terrorists, geth or collectors and 10%

4) where is the number 5% coming from. the codex say 3% volunteer. which means 1% at active service at most.  

most of the money for the alliance comes from the colonies. if they can protect them. they are losing profit. humanity has been in a state of war since the beginning of m1.


One more thing. you clearly missed the chart where I have put down the galactic military ship numbers. it clearly show that humanity is number 5-6 on the galactic power spread. humanity fleet advantage lies in its mobile garrisons.



Here is an example of a small country who made it big.
http://eh.net/encycl.../grytten.norway 

In the end we need to put the numbers in a way that make sense with in game lore. we cannot work on using our gut feeling.
In game facts.
1) asari has the biggest economy.
2) volus are wealthy
3) turian economy >salarian economy. 
4) turian are bad buisnessmen.
5) elcor economy > human economy
6) galaxy has trillion of people.
7) Military rank. Turian> asari> Salarian> Human
8) Population facts. asari has the biggest population.
9) human have a strong galactic presence.
10) most of the asari are lazy.
11) batarians are an agressive race, keen on colonizng worlds, has been around for 2400 years and suffered no major wars.(they also know how to terraform
12)  turian are an agressive race  who were able to hold their ground against the krogan horde numbers (hundred of billions of krogans- trillions.)
if i missed anything let me know
13) there are dozens of species in the galaxy.
14) sr1 ezzo = 120 billion credits. sr1 as a whole cost as much as cruiser. 12,000 fighters use a ezzo worth of 120 billion credits..

15) sitra foundation invented the medi gel. which has many uses -.Henry lawson is one of the wealthiest people alive in the galaxy.  ashland refienries are everywhere. hahne kedar mechs sell a lot.

if someone feels my numbers are off he should base his answer  after accepting all these in game facts.

Modifié par erezike, 01 novembre 2013 - 03:38 .

[TheProtheans]

Somewhat related.
But how do you explain the relaxed forces of the Council races insight of the fact there could be real threats luring behind every mass relay they open putting the entire way of life at risk as a result.
Surely they would have decided to keep a strong force active in case a mass relay was in fact activated and they were attacked.
At the moment based on these estimates a completely military based race could develop a force more powerful than the entire galaxy in less than a century.
Based on your assigned estimates for the Turians they're no more military defined than the humans, even less so in that respect.

The humans spent hardly any time on the galaxy stage and have an economy and a force to compete in some cases against 2000 thousand years of development economically and military.
Which I find to be completely unrealistic if the Asari, Turian and Salarians were responsible for hundreds of billions of beings from there own species and 1000's of more years to develop productive colonies that help the economy.
In that regard I don't see how the average human can be more productive after such limited exposure to the galaxy.

I understand the estimates were taking from real world statistics on actual nations however if the explanation for human growth can be explained then the only way to explain it is by making the baseline that the other species do not have enormous populations.
Anyway I find your ingame facts to be assumptions.
But at the end of the day we're trying to make sense of a badly planned trilogy which is downright impossible to do.

Modifié par TheProtheans, 31 octobre 2013 - 02:32 .

[TheProtheans]

The Rachni were arguably the most effective military force in the galaxy.
Even more so than the Krogan.
How the Asari and Salarians were able to combat these two powers for so long without assistance with one of them being largely lazy is beyond me.
And other being one that does not fight in actual head to head combat.

I think the game greatly downplays the the combat ability of both species, even the numbers are skewed.
A disciplined force such as the Rachni with billions of unpaid workers should by right devour two species who barely have a military worthy of galactic control in the current age.
I find it hard to believe the rachni could not out build the Asari and Salarians for the century or so in which they fought without others getting involved.
This is related to the current economy as they Asari and the Salarians would have needed a ridiculous military force to hold off the Krogan and the Rachni.
The military might of the Asari and the Salarian should by right have went up, not down as they know the dangers of the galaxy.

Modifié par TheProtheans, 31 octobre 2013 - 06:53 .

[Erez Kristal]

TheProtheans wrote...

Somewhat related.
But how do you explain the relaxed forces of the Council races insight of the fact there could be real threats luring behind every mass relay they open putting the entire way of life at risk as a result.
Surely they would have decided to keep a strong force active in case a mass relay was in fact activated and they were attacked.
At the moment based on these estimates a completely military based race could develop a force more powerful than the entire galaxy in less than a century.
Based on your assigned estimates for the Turians they're no more military defined than the humans, even less so in that respect.

The humans spent hardly any time on the galaxy stage and have an economy and a force to compete in some cases against 2000 thousand years of development economically and military.
Which I find to be completely unrealistic if the Asari, Turian and Salarians were responsible for hundreds of billions of beings from there own species and 1000's of more years to develop productive colonies that help the economy.
In that regard I don't see how the average human can be more productive after such limited exposure to the galaxy.

I understand the estimates were taking from real world statistics on actual nations however if the explanation for human growth can be explained then the only way to explain it is by making the baseline that the other species do not have enormous populations.
Anyway I find your ingame facts to be assumptions.
But at the end of the day we're trying to make sense of a badly planned trilogy which is downright impossible to do.

that is incorrect.  in my estimates i have given the turians more than 4 times the number of ships and 200% the number of active soldiers.. the asari two times and half and the salarian two times.  active soldiers rates change from rate to rate. with smaller armies relying on cvilian services more. humanity biggest strength and reason for influence in mass effect rely on its mobile garrisons. once humanity begin to hold a larger army their upkeep costs will sky rock. they cannot continue to rate of building for much longer unless they continue to grow their economy at the same rate.
mass efffect is also a time of a lot of investments flowing into the system alliance which explain the temporary higher gdp(see norway story and american money.)


https://lh5.googleus...Go36b2JDMvUHIGQ
There is also a difference in quality between the different races. other races upkeep cost are also higher due to not having mobile garrisons like the alliance. they need more infrastructure and more ground troops.

Modifié par erezike, 31 octobre 2013 - 08:08 .

[silverexile17s]

erezike wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...


Dude, @Wulfram's right -- you really are overestimating the galaxy. Big time.
To start- No, the Alliance isn't under "War Time." They haven't been since the Skyllian Blitz. A

That's not war. Those are simple security enforcements. An actual war is a full-scale conflict against an enemy military faction that encompasses either an entire planet, or several planets. Anything less - like pirates and slave raiders - is simply border patrol. True wars would be the Skyllian Blitz, or the Krogan Rebellions, or the Rachni Wars. Humanity has not been in an active state of war for over fifteen years.

Untrue. Only 5% of humanity comprises the Alliance. Humanity is regarded as the jack-of-all-trades in the galaxy. A Sentinel in class -- excelling in nothing but proficiant in everything. Humanity is a diffused presence. It's not geared spicifically toward wealth (like the asari), military (like the turians), scientific advancement (like the salarians), cultural development (hanar, elcor), or fiscial domination (volus). They maintain presances in all of it., but don't major in any of it. And if you think these are "wealthy times" for the Alliance compared to everything else, I direct you to look at the asari. Humans are at the bottom of the pack among the Council races. Especally with things like the Eden Prime War, and then the Collector attacks.

two of these parts are false and the third i dont know the source for. 
1) overestimating the galaxy - the galaxy in mass effect have trillions of people living it spread over dozens of races. some are major the other who we dont see are minor. if you think the spread is different please offer you alternatve spread which would fit the 3 trillions or more demographic.
2) humans arent sentiels. humans have are great diversity in their skills. this means they have some of the best business man. some of the best scientists some of the best troops. the difference between a jack of all trades and this. is that jack of all trades tend not to reach to the top becasue he is to spread out. while humanity have cleary proven their ability to reach the top with the sitra foundationm ashland refienry, henry lawson. military capabilities per vessel. and scientifc breakthroughs(edi, normandy, overlord, ) this diversity means you can have people doing what they do best on a broader range of jobs. unlike the asari who are good at talking or the salarian who are good at inventing things. or the volus who make for good business men but little more or the turians who only make for dicipline soldiers.

3) first there is a geth war going on, in case you have noticed. secondly the system alliance recognized the reaper threat but didnt go public with it. 3) terror attacks. 4) 12 human colonies went were abducted and dozens more were attack add to that ashland refinery attacks. humanity is at the state of war. i dont know how many colonies humanity has but if we a assume a little more than two hundred colonies than it means at least 10% of their colonies were systematically attacked by pirates, terrorists, geth or collectors and 10%

4) where is the number 5% coming from. the codex say 3% volunteer. which means 1% at active service at most.  

most of the money for the alliance comes from the colonies. if they can protect them. they are losing profit. humanity has been in a state of war since the beginning of m1.


One more thing. you clearly missed the chart where I have put down the galactic military ship numbers. it clearly show that humanity is number 5-6 on the galactic power spread. humanity fleet advantage lies in its mobile garrisons.



Here is an example of a small country who made it big.
http://eh.net/encycl.../grytten.norway 

In the end we need to put the numbers in a way that make sense with in game lore. we cannot work on using our gut feeling.
In game facts.
1) asari has the biggest economy.
2) volus are wealthy
3) turian economy >salarian economy. 
4) turian are bad buisnessmen.
5) elcor economy > human economy
6) galaxy has trillion of people.
7) Military rank. Turian> asari> Salarian> Human
8) Population facts. asari has the biggest population.
9) human have a strong galactic presence.
10) most of the asari are lazy.
11) batarians are an agressive race, keen on colonizng worlds, has been around for 2400 years and suffered no major wars.(they also know how to terraform
12)  turian are an agressive race  who were able to hold their ground against the krogan horde numbers (hundred of billions of krogans- trillions.)
if i missed anything let me know
 13) there are dozens of species in the galaxy.
14) sr1 ezzo = 120 billion credits. sr1 as a whole cost as much as cruiser. 12,000 fighters use a ezzo worth of 120 billion credits..

15) sitra foundation invented the medi gel. which has many uses(reduce pollution) - Henry lawson is one of the wealthiest people alive in the galaxy.  ashland refienries are everywhere. hanne kedar mechs sell a lot.

if someone feels my numbers are off he should base his answer  after accepting all these in game facts.

Dude, those statsitics of yours are false. Overblown and overestimated.
1) In ME, only a grand total of 25% - 30% of the actual galaxy comprises the total military force. Only the four council races have an actual military presence. All the others have minimal or none. The batarians are a shell empire that don't even match up to humans. The terminus pirates are fractured micro-groups that are even weaker then the batarians. The vorcha and krogan don't even posess spacefleets. I mean, IDK if you noticed, but those "trillions" are civilians, NOT military. The only races this would be untrue for would be the turians, rachni and krogan, and the krogan don't have fleets while the rachni have only a minimal presence in the galaxy following their near-extinction. Your demographic doesn't even fit the 3 trillion mark -- you're majorly overblwoing the effective military the lax and lazy Council has. This is a peace-time, thus military development gets lax. Hell, an independant orginization - Cerberus - was able to create weapons that could match the Council governments. That alone should tell you diffinitively that the galactic militaries aren't what they're cracked up to be.

2) That's the same thing a Sentinal IS. Sentinals are people that have "a great diversity in their skills." That's what Sentinels are - VERBATIUM. And like them, they're diversity means that they aren't masters in any one field due to having spread their skills. They haven't attained mastery in any field because of their spread-out skill set. They haven't focused on one spicific skill, so by consiquence they aren't masters at any of them. Proficiant in everything, but excelling at nothing. That's humanity compared to the rest of the galaxy. Hell, that simple undeniable fact was one of the base reasons TIM founded Cerberus to begin with -- the fact that humanity was too diffused in it's interists to ever surpass the Council Races in any spicific field. The volus are the better businessmen. The salarians are the better scientists. The turians are the better soldiers. The asari are the better traders. Humans are proficant in each of these fields, but because they are so diffused, they will never master any of these fields like the other races did, because they don't focus on a single area to develop.
I hate to break this to you, but humanity in the galaxy is nothing like what you've been reading in the Terra Firma or Cerberus phamplets -- we're the jack-of-all-trades in the galaxy. We aren't this superior super-faction you keep trying to play us off as. I mean, in case you didn't notice, humans didn't reach the top. They gained membership to the Council, but are considered the weakest species on it. The role of heroes at the Battle of the Citadel instantly makes us "the top?" That's Cerberus-level arrogance to think one single battle makes us the best compared to the long history the other races have -- I mean, at least try to be consideate and think of how long the galaxy lasted without humans. Turians had that same role in the Krogan Rebellions. And FYI, the entire point of uniting the races to fight was to illustrate that humans are nothing without allies to stand beside. That no single race is superior. That the top doesn't belong to any one race. This idea of human dominance is everything we fought to disprove -- that no race is "dominant" to the others, like what the Reapers preach they are.
And BTW, those military vessels were co-designed by TURIANS. The Normandy-series vessels wouldn't exist if not for turians and their military and ship-building expertiese. And half the tech humans use is based off the pe-existing tech of the modern galaxy. Hell, several humam weapons are modified versions of the ones the other races made (The Raptor sniper rifle is proof of this). Just look at Biotics - they weren't researched until after First Contact when the humans had turians and asari to ask for help from. And the concept of A.I.s was already mastered by the quarians, and EDI was created because they just plugged Reaper Tech into a V.I. and crossed their fingers -- the Reaper Tech did all the work in making EDI special, and it can't be considered a "breakthrough" since they don't know how to replicate the effect of the random occourance EDI's sentiance was. And fuel refineries are dominated by the asari, not humans. We're a minority compared to them.
Sorry, but you are really, REALLY overblowing how special humans are -- were a small cog in a large galaxy. We'ere nothing special.
3) That's not a real war. Again, border skirmishes, since the Council restricted the Alliance from making any comitted military effort against the geth. Eden Prime was the first major conflict, while the Battle of the Citadel was the second, and last, large-scale conflict of the war. Anderson tells you in ME2 that it's all clean-up after that, while everything in ME1 was a one-man suppression effort by Shepard. And it took the Alliance three years to rebuild their forces from the Battle of the Citadel -- the only major space-conflict in the entire Eden Prime War. Secondly, that's completely and utterly false. Anderson and Hackett both tell you this straight-up -- The Alliance DOESN'T BELIEVE IN THE REAPERS. They've completely backslead on the matter to save face with the Council (another indication of just how little humans really matter in the galaxy at large). They DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE THE REAPERS AS REAL. Hackett tells you that in Arrival, saying he sent Kenson out himself independantly, and Anderson confirms that the Alliance is with the Council on this -- the Reapers are a myth as far as they are concerned. No ammount of wishing otherwise on your part will change that simple fact.
And the terror attacks are border patrol. Pirate attacks and slaver attacks are regarded as nothing more then border patrol and clean-up - nothing major.
And that wasn't enough to get the Alliance's attention. You seem to think the Terminus Colonies are part of the Alliance -- They aren't. That mechanic, Dillian, on Horizon, tells you that the Terminus colonies were founded to be independant from the Alliance. Thats why the colonies were targeted to begin with -- because every single one is a breakaway colony that is independant from the Alliance itself, and thus, outside their juristiction. Humanity is ANYTHING BUT in a "state of war." Anderson and Hackett tell you this, as do Miranda Lawson and the Illusive Man.
Also, 3% volunteer, 2% conscripted. Nothing like the mass conscriptions of the turians.
And most of the Alliance funding comes from co-operation with other races. And again, the Terminus colonies are completely independant from the rest of humanity -- they aren't members of the Alliance. The repeated refrence to human colonies instead of Alliance colonies should have been a hint. Each Terminus colony is independant, and thus, the Alliance IS NOT in an active state of war, and hasn't been since the Battle of the Citadel.

Also, you clearly missed where I said that statistic means absolutly nothing since every race under humans has little to no military strength to begin with. It's like comparing America to a street gang -- there's no comparison and thus, not much to brag about. And the salarians have more mobile garrisons then us since they never sit still.

Follow your own damn advice -- quit letting your gut dictate how superior humans are.
And the turians made the volus a cliant race of there so that the volus could manage their economy. Turian businessmen are volus, making point 4) invalid. Point 9) is also invalid since humans have a galactic presence comparible to the hanar and elcor -- hardly a "strong galactic presence." Point 11) is completely wrong because the batarians are too paranoid of the outside to risk colonization of other worlds. They aren't "keen on colonizing worlds," they're keen on causing hurt to human intrests. And did you completely forget the Skillyan Blitz, which cost them an entire colony moon on Torfan and millions of batarians when the Alliance finally got pissed? Balak himself says that everyone knew they were weaker then the Alliance -- the Council included. And that the batarians have only atrophied further due to their isolation because of having to live of scraps. And just to remind you, every single Council race knows how to terraform. The turians, the asari, the salarians, the humans, hell even the volus, elcor and hanar. Terraforming isnt't all that strong a point.

There are only a little over a dozen active species in the galaxy
1) Turians
2) Salarians
3) Asari
4) Humans
5) Hanar
6) Elcor
7) Volus
8) Quarians
9) Geth
10) Vorcha
11) Krogan
12) Raloi
13) Batarians
14 ) Yahg
15) Rachni
16) Drell
17) Collectors (Reaperized Protheans)
The statement of "dozens" is a bit overblown.
Point 14) is false as well, since those credits were the design of the engine itself, NOT the net-worth of the eezo inside the core. Point 15) is also irrlivent since it is a recent development, indicating it was created off genetic archival information from the other races in conjunction, in order to create it. This is proven by how Medi-Gel has a dextro-variant. It wasn't solelly a human product. Henry Lawson is one of the richest humans in the galaxy, not one of the richest individuals in the galaxy. Fix your definitions.
And Ashland refineries are everywhere in the Terminus and Skyllian Verge. IDK if you realize this, but not every fuel depot belongs to them. Hell, not every depot carries fuel by them. The asari and turians manufacture their own fuel too and are just as widespread. Hane-Kedar mechs are chep and disposible, and quarians invented the practice of mobile assistance mechs first with the geth.

Perhaps you should double-check your own statsitics and the facts in-game, before you act so high and mighty about your numbers. You need to accept these in-game facts first before you preach to others about them.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 31 octobre 2013 - 08:19 .

[silverexile17s]

erezike wrote...

TheProtheans wrote...

Somewhat related.
But how do you explain the relaxed forces of the Council races insight of the fact there could be real threats luring behind every mass relay they open putting the entire way of life at risk as a result.
Surely they would have decided to keep a strong force active in case a mass relay was in fact activated and they were attacked.
At the moment based on these estimates a completely military based race could develop a force more powerful than the entire galaxy in less than a century.
Based on your assigned estimates for the Turians they're no more military defined than the humans, even less so in that respect.

The humans spent hardly any time on the galaxy stage and have an economy and a force to compete in some cases against 2000 thousand years of development economically and military.
Which I find to be completely unrealistic if the Asari, Turian and Salarians were responsible for hundreds of billions of beings from there own species and 1000's of more years to develop productive colonies that help the economy.
In that regard I don't see how the average human can be more productive after such limited exposure to the galaxy.

I understand the estimates were taking from real world statistics on actual nations however if the explanation for human growth can be explained then the only way to explain it is by making the baseline that the other species do not have enormous populations.
Anyway I find your ingame facts to be assumptions.
But at the end of the day we're trying to make sense of a badly planned trilogy which is downright impossible to do.

that is incorrect.  in my estimates i have given the turians more than 4 times the number of ships and 200% the number of active soldiers.. the asari two times and half and the salarian two times.  active soldiers rates change from rate to rate. with smaller armies relying on cvilian services more. humanity biggest strength and reason for influence in mass effect rely on its mobile garrisons. once humanity begin to hold a larger army their upkeep costs will sky rock. they cannot continue to rate of building for much longer unless they continue to grow their economy at the same rate.
mass efffect is also a time of a lot of investments flowing into the system alliance which explain the temporary higher gdp(see norway story and american money.)


https://lh5.googleus...Go36b2JDMvUHIGQ
There is also a difference in quality between the different races. other races upkeep cost are also higher due to not having mobile garrisons like the alliance. they need more infrastructure and more ground troops.

Already there's a problem -- The turian count for Dreadnoughts is 37, not 41. The geth have almost as much, meaning they'd be closer to an even 30. Quarians have at least 50,000 ships, so much more then just 100 crusiers, and they have three liveships, so that's three dreadnought-sized ships. Sorry to say, but once again, you're math has gaps in it. You're making blind estimates and overassumptions.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 31 octobre 2013 - 08:19 .

[Erez Kristal]

silverexile17s wrote...
snip

silverexile. i am not going to argue with you here on this thread.
i remember quite well how ineffective those arguments can get.

If you want to think something different thats perfectly fine. but you have to produce your own numbers that follow the 15 lore facts i posted above in order to build them.
trillions of people in the galaxy is a hard in game fact.

Quarrians have several hundred warships. thats an in game fact. the rest are civilian ships.  in my chart also take notice to the differences in quality. and troops spread over population. low troops count on big population spread will give the appearance of weaker than what they are: batarians(who been around for 2400 years with not war and are agressive) 

Modifié par erezike, 01 novembre 2013 - 08:47 .

[Erez Kristal]

TheProtheans wrote...

The Rachni were arguably the most effective military force in the galaxy.
Even more so than the Krogan.
How the Asari and Salarians were able to combat these two powers for so long without assistance with one of them being largely lazy is beyond me.
And other being one that does not fight in actual head to head combat.

I think the game greatly downplays the the combat ability of both species, even the numbers are skewed.
A disciplined force such as the Rachni with billions of unpaid workers should by right devour two species who barely have a military worthy of galactic control in the current age.
I find it hard to believe the rachni could not out build the Asari and Salarians for the century or so in which they fought without others getting involved.
This is related to the current economy as they Asari and the Salarians would have needed a ridiculous military force to hold off the Krogan and the Rachni.
The military might of the Asari and the Salarian should by right have went up, not down as they know the dangers of the galaxy.

You make for a great argument here. it can be assumed that before the turians arrived the asari and salarian were much more militaraized and less complacent. we can also assume that under war times the two races produce new ships from spare materials rather fast. the asari provide the materials and the salarian who are fast learning provide the troops. the asari and salarian smart tactics help them deal with any enemy very efficenty. and punch more than their weight.
we can also assume with the rachni case that their ships were less effective but they were impossibile to get rid of without the help of the krogan infantry.

as for the krogan rebellions. the asari and salarian had years before to prepare. they delayed the time of war with the krogans to the time when they are ready. which is how they managed to survive until help arrive. 

In the past their military might was higher. now with the turian and bright salarian intelligence they are allowed to keep their military efficent(see the british model) with less troops. in time of immediate crisis they can build new ships or troops rather fast.  (see real world, times of war model) unlike the humans who have been attacked constantly over the last decades the salarian and asari (with the exception of the attack on the citadel) had hundreds years of peace.  and their people arent fond on increasing the defence budget even more.(watch real world examples.)

[Han Shot First]

TheProtheans wrote...

I think the game greatly downplays the the combat ability of both species, even the numbers are skewed.
A disciplined force such as the Rachni with billions of unpaid workers should by right devour two species who barely have a military worthy of galactic control in the current age.

I think you might be underrating the Asari a bit.

Of the two mentioned campaigns from the Krogan Rebellions where the Asari and Krogan fought, the Asari won both. During the Reaper War the Asari Republics also score more victories against the Reapers than any other faction except for the Turians. There also a codex entry that mentions that the Turians have a saying that, "The asari are the finest warriors in the galaxy. Fortunately, there are not many of them."

The Asari appear to field a military force that is first rate in terms of quality. Its just smaller than the Turian military. Although the orders of battle are not known for the Krogan Rebellions or Rachni Wars, I suspect both the Krogan and Rachni possessed numerical superiority over the Council forces.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 01 novembre 2013 - 12:01 .

[silverexile17s]

erezike wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...
snip

silverexile. i am not going to argue with you here on this thread.
i remember quite well how ineffective those argumetns can get.

If you want to think something different thats perfectly fine. but you have to produce your own numbers that follow the 15 lore facts i posted above in order to build them.
trillions of people in the galaxy is a hard in game fact.

Quarrians have several hundred warships. thats an in game fact. the rest are civilian ships.  in my chart also take notice to the differences in quality. and troops spread over population. low troops count on big population spread will give the appearance of weaker than what they are: batarians(who been around for 2400 years with not war and are agressive) 

You mean you can't refute any of it. This is your thread -- this is what you wanted to debate: the statistics of galactic population and GDP. Saying you "aren't going to agrue" is completely counter to the reason you started this thread to begin with. The point is to get an accurate read -- you want to go into this with flawed readings? Isn't the point for others to comment on the potential flaws in these numbers and make sure your own are accurate? Because if that's not the case, you wouldn't have made this thread to begin with.

FYI, I DID. I provided counetrs to the ones that were wrong. You are the one guilty of failing to provide accurate lore facts -- especally since you haven't even bothered to point out what stitistics you think are wrong. Perhaps you could actually say what you think isn't accurate, instead of a general hand-wave.
Also, IDK if you noticed, but I didn't say everything you said was wrong. I said that half of your "lore facts" were  incorrect  --- 4, 8, 9, 11, 13, 14, & 15 to be spicific. You can re-read what I said yourself, but doubtless you miss it again, since if you'd seen it the first time, you wouldn't have said I had no proof.
Where is that a stated "hard in-game fact?" Because you haven't given any proof to that. Or the idea that anywehre near 25% would be militant. Militant groups are a minority in the galalxy at large. Discounting the synthetic geth, the only fully militarized faction are the turians. The only other two (rachni & krogan) lack the numbers and the means to be a threat, not possessing spacecraft or a centerlized military. You're using the claim of it being fact to make baseless assumptions about the galaxy's strength. You need to stop overestimating the numbers here.

Quarians retrofitted every single ship with weapons. That's also an "in-game fact." They're warship count numbers at well over a thousand at least. Then there are the civilian ships. And again, "in your chart" you should notice that the numbers for the turian ships are off, as are the batarians -- they likely don't have six dreadnoughts since they are struggling just to maintain their ragged economy, and their factions are engaged in a cold war with each-other (according to the Shadow Broker network in ME2). And galaxy is not even anywhere near that militant -- with the sole exceptions of the geth, humans and turians, everyone else would be at least half those numbers. The krogan too, since most of their combat-ready males are freelancers scattered across the galaxy, according to Wrex.
And Again, completely wrong. The batarians have felt TWO WARS. The Skyllian Blitz, when humans invaded their space and slaughtered their colony moon of Torfan. And at present, they are deadlocked amongest themselves in a cold war. And before all that, they were already weaker then the Alliance. Balak himself says so on the Asteroid X57 during "Bring Down the Sky" --
"We've been forced into exile. Forced to survive on what we can scrounge up. It's been like that for decades."
"We were left to defend ourselves. But the humans were stronger then us. We knew that. The Council knew that. But it didn't matter. It was you. You and your kind are the only reason we're in this position." -- Balak, Asteroid X57, 2183: Bring Down the Sky.
What the hell other proof do you need that the batarians aren't the mega-threat you keep trying to paint them as? They're weaker then us. They're the epitimy of a paper tiger of an empire. They aren't a threat and they aren't a siziable militant force. End of story.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 01 novembre 2013 - 12:52 .

[TheProtheans]

Han Shot First wrote...

TheProtheans wrote...

I think the game greatly downplays the the combat ability of both species
[/b]

I think you might be underrating the Asari a bit.

Well no I think the game is downplaying, hell it is even downplaying the Turians so the humans are considered a sizable force in the galaxy.
If humans can throw out a force 1/2, 1/3 1/4 the strength of species who have been spacefarring for 2000 years in just 30 years while not entirely focusing on military, then the Rachni wars greatly confuses as if the same economic plan was to be considered to include the way the Rachni operate then it 30 years the rachni could produce a force more powerful than every race in 2183.
As such I believe the Asari and the Salarians would have needed a force of many thousands of cruisers and tens of thousands of frigates to combat a species that has billions of workers who work for a hive and can build vessels endlessly.

If humans were to put 50% of their resoucres into military then they would produce 
- 5400 frigates
- 900 cruisers 
- 30 Dreadnoughts
- 1800000 fighters
And that is with a new weak economy compared to other species and a limited time to mine resources and explore other worlds and colonize them.
Most of Humanity is on earth so most of the production would be there too.


If I was to say the Rachni were around longer and explored more worlds and had access to more resources and worked as a hive mind which could focus on military at a great percentage and had tens/hundreds of billions of more workers.
Based on how quickly humans were able to develop.
The Rachni could have acheived the following in 30 years as well.
- 50,000+ frigates
- 9,000+ cruisers
- 300+ dreadnoughts
-  5,000,000 fighters

Modifié par TheProtheans, 01 novembre 2013 - 01:33 .

[silverexile17s]

TheProtheans wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

TheProtheans wrote...

I think the game greatly downplays the the combat ability of both species
[/b]

I think you might be underrating the Asari a bit.

Well no I think the game is downplaying, hell it is even downplaying the Turians so the humans are considered a sizable force in the galaxy.
If humans can throw out a force 1/2, 1/3 1/4 the strength of species who have been spacefarring for 2000 years in just 30 years while not entirely focusing on military, then the Rachni wars greatly confuses as if the same economic plan was to be considered to include the way the Rachni operate then it 30 years the rachni could produce a force more powerful than every race in 2183.
As such I believe the Asari and the Salarians would have needed a force of many thousands of cruisers and tens of thousands of frigates to combat a species that has billions of workers who work for a hive and can build vessels endlessly.

If humans were to put 50% of their resoucres into military then they would produce 
- 5400 frigates
- 900 cruisers 
- 30 Dreadnoughts
- 1800000 fighters
And that is with a new weak economy compared to other species and a limited time to mine resources and explore other worlds and colonize them.
Most of Humanity is on earth so most of the production would be there too.


If I was to say the Rachni were around longer and explored more worlds and had access to more resources and worked as a hive mind which could focus on military at a great percentage and had tens/hundreds of billions of more workers.
Based on how quickly humans were able to develop.
The Rachni could have acheived the following in 30 years as well.
- 50,000+ frigates
- 9,000+ cruisers
- 300+ dreadnoughts
-  5,000,000 fighters

Perhaps the Council used biotics (asari) and bio-weapons (salarians) to forstall the rachni for as long as they did, prior to the krogan emerging.

[Erez Kristal]

TheProtheans wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

TheProtheans wrote...

I think the game greatly downplays the the combat ability of both species
[/b]

I think you might be underrating the Asari a bit.

Well no I think the game is downplaying, hell it is even downplaying the Turians so the humans are considered a sizable force in the galaxy.
If humans can throw out a force 1/2, 1/3 1/4 the strength of species who have been spacefarring for 2000 years in just 30 years while not entirely focusing on military, then the Rachni wars greatly confuses as if the same economic plan was to be considered to include the way the Rachni operate then it 30 years the rachni could produce a force more powerful than every race in 2183.
As such I believe the Asari and the Salarians would have needed a force of many thousands of cruisers and tens of thousands of frigates to combat a species that has billions of workers who work for a hive and can build vessels endlessly.

If humans were to put 50% of their resoucres into military then they would produce 
- 5400 frigates
- 900 cruisers 
- 30 Dreadnoughts
- 1800000 fighters
And that is with a new weak economy compared to other species and a limited time to mine resources and explore other worlds and colonize them.
Most of Humanity is on earth so most of the production would be there too.


If I was to say the Rachni were around longer and explored more worlds and had access to more resources and worked as a hive mind which could focus on military at a great percentage and had tens/hundreds of billions of more workers.
Based on how quickly humans were able to develop.
The Rachni could have acheived the following in 30 years as well.
- 50,000+ frigates
- 9,000+ cruisers
- 300+ dreadnoughts
-  5,000,000 fighters

50% resources is over the top. they are already streching it with 15%. they couldnt go for much longer with higher percentages. the asari. salarian and turian do not keep higher ship armadas because it would greatly strain their economy. they are already spending a reasonable amount 2.3 and 2.5.(like france and uk) that spending suit their cultures. a small high quality and very efficent army.  upkeep costs are a serious issue. humanity with its current population would have very big troubles supporting 18 dreadnoughts without a mobile garrison and the the influx of forgien investments. their gdp is likely to not increase in the future or even decrease. 

The rachni may have had a lot of dedicated workers. but as far as we can tell their spacefaring might have been crap.

the krogans may have also possesed  weaker tactic abilities against the asari and salarian in space( the salarian used a lot sabotage, to delay the krogans) 

the biggest problem with the rachni was how to defeat them on the ground.

Modifié par erezike, 01 novembre 2013 - 01:17 .

[Erez Kristal]

silverexile17s wrote...


You mean you can't refute any of it. 

Snip.

i just know how this arguments get. and im not going to get into one with you on this thread.
i want to make sure this thread stays open...

If you have aternative numbers to offer please do so. once you start producing your alternate numbers that follows the lore basline. you will understand why these calculations are the only viable conclusion.

It would be very hard to do. since in your post you repeatadly misinterpreted the game lore. trofan and the blitz for example were not batarians wars. they were a fringe war. just like iran uses the hamas or hezbollah to do its wars against israel for them. iran have never fought against israel in a direct conflict. 
.
putting advanced guns on a cvilian ship does not make it a warship. warship is more than just potential firepower.
turian, human, asari and salarian also have cvilian ships with weapons. these are not mentioned in the charts. only true warships are.

in game facts explained. trying to refute these in order to prove your claim. show what little work you did before you answered . that is unacceptable. if you want to participate in a debate you have to do your homework.
 understanding these 15 in game lore facts are a must before making any attempts to calculate the population numbers or wealth.

4) turian are bad buisnessmen. -  " Turians have a strong inclination toward public service and self-sacrifice, so they tend to be poor entrepreneurs."
8) Population facts. asari has the biggest population. - mass effect revelation
9) humans have a strong galactic presence. - the mass effect games

11) batarians are an agressive race, keen on colonizng worlds, has been around for 2400 years and suffered no major wars.(they also know how to terraform - batarians wiki. been around since 200 bce. they are agressive and terra formed two planets. pragia and the planet in arrival.

13) there are dozens of species in the galaxy. -  codex on the terminus and the council
14) sr1 ezzo = 120 billion credits. sr1 as a whole cost as much as cruiser. 12,000 fighters use a ezzo worth of 120 billion credits- the conversation with the rear admiral near the normandy in mass effect 1

15) sitra foundation invented the medi gel.  - Henry lawson is one of the wealthiest people alive in the galaxy.  ashland refineries are everywhere. hahne kedar mechs sell a lot -. herny lawson is named to be one of the wealthiest man alive by the eclipse merc. ashland refineries are everywhere. and medigel is used by all military personal. we also fight hanne kedar mechs in all of the blues sons+ eclipse missions.

 if you want to contribue to this debate do your homework and come up with alternate numbers based on the game lore. lack of knowledge doesnt make things facts.

Modifié par erezike, 02 novembre 2013 - 08:39 .

[silverexile17s]

erezike wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...


You mean you can't refute any of it. 

Snip.

i just know how this arguments get. and im not going to get into one with you on this thread.
i want to make sure this thread stays open...

If you have aternative numbers to offer please do so. once you start producing your alternate numbers that follows the lore basline. you will understand why these calculations are the only viable conclusion.

It would be very hard to do. since in your post you repeatadly misinterpreted the game lore. trofan and the blitz for example were not batarians wars. they were a fringe war. just like iran uses the hamas or hezbollah to do its wars against israel for them. iran have never fought against israel in a direct conflict. 

you can also use the saudi arabia example and el-kaidia.

putting advanced guns on a cvilian ship does not make it a warship. warship is more than just potential firepower.
turian, human, asari and salarian also have cvilian ships with weapons. these are not mention in the charts. only true warships are.



in game facts explained. trying to refute these in order to prove your claim. show what little work you did before you answered . that is unacceptable. if you want to participate in a debate you have to do your homework.
 understanding these 15 in game lore facts are a must before making any attempts to calculate the population numbers or wealth.
 4, 8, 9, 11, 13, 14, & 15


4) turian are bad buisnessmen. -  ] Turians have a strong inclination toward public service and self-sacrifice, so they tend to be poor entrepreneurs."
8) Population facts. asari has the biggest population. - mass effect revelation
9) humans have a strong galactic presence. - the mass effect games.

11) batarians are an agressive race, keen on colonizng worlds, has been around for 2400 years and suffered no major wars.(they also know how to terraform - batarians wiki. been around since 200 bce. they are agressive and terra formed two planets. pragia and the planet in arrival.

13) there are dozens of species in the galaxy. -  codex on the terminus and the council
14) sr1 ezzo = 120 billion credits. sr1 as a whole cost as much as cruiser. 12,000 fighters use a ezzo worth of 120 billion credits- the conversation with the rear admiral near the normandy in mass effect 1

15) sitra foundation invented the medi gel.  - Henry lawson is one of the wealthiest people alive in the galaxy.  ashland refineries are everywhere. hahne kedar mechs sell a lot -. herny lawson is named to be one of the wealthiest man alive by the exlipse merc. ashland refineries are everywhere. and medigel is used by all military personal. we also fight hanne kedar mechs in all of the blues sons+ eclipse missions.


 if you want to contribue to this debate do your homework and come up with alternate numbers based on the game lore.
lack of knowledge doesnt make things facts.

Again with your *snip.* It doesn't really help your case if you hide/ignore the points I'm making.

How is an an arguement? It's called a debate -- not an arguement. If you consider it an arguement, it's because you ignore everyone else's word but your own as being valid. That causes arguements, and if you want to avoid that, you need to (A) stop acting like you have the absolute athourity on lore when you don't have proof of such, and ( acknowledge when someone else is right and has valid lore on their side. You say you want to re-write ME3 because the devs failed, and yet you're acting just like them -- you're refusing to admit that you're ever wrong, even when the facts are staring you right in the face.

No, that will never happen, because your numbers aren't valid to begin with. You want accurate numbers, use accurate facts. I'm no math virtusio, but I know enough about the series to know that the "facts" you're basing your calculations off of are completely wrong and thus, the calculations are too -- because they're sources are inaccurate. And again, right there  -- "only valid conclusion." That implies that your word is irrifutible, even though the basis of your assumptions with several of the races are incorrect.

Wrong. That's you. You are the one repeatedly misinterperting the lore. For one - Balak completely counters your assumptiopn on Torfan:
'"I could ask you the same thing! How many innocent batarians died at Torfan? Oh, or did you forget about that?"
Balak, Asteroid X57 -- 2183, Bring Down the Sky. (Only avalible if Shepard was of the "Ruthless" background)
According to Balak himself, Torfan cost them dearly. And according to the Shadow Broker Network in ME2, Kar'Shan, the batarian homeworld, is in the midst of a cold war between multiple factions. To say they haven't had any wars is a gross misinterpertation. They weren't a fringe war -- Balak himself disproves that assumption of yours by saying that the entire Batarian Hegemony was backing the Skyllian Blitz, since the resources of the Verge were esscential to their development, and depriving them of it basically ruined them.

No, you can't. Those are completely different cultures then the batarians -- stop trying to judge alien races using human cultural standards. It's like trying to impose moral laws on Mother Nature -- it just doesn't fly.

Tell that to the Reaper that died on Rannoch. Remember that? And with a fleet of 50,000 ships, there are bound to naturally be more then "a few hundred" to police and protect them all. I mean, be realistic. You've overestimated half the other races, like the batarians, but you underestimate the quarians.

That statement describes your "facts," not mine. If you want to do this, you need to do your own homework first before preaching to others -- that "air of superority" attitude is why half your threads become arguements in the first place.

4) That's why they completely intigrated the Vol Protectorate into their Hierarchy. The volus are considered turian civilians, and thus, turian buisnessmen are all Volus. Anyone that read the Codex entires on Volus & Turian cultural history would know that.
Centuries ago, they were voluntarily absorbed into the Hierarchy, effectively trading their mercantile prowess for turian military protection -- Codex, Primary Entries, Non-Council Races, Volus.
Also, since you conviently forgot the second half of that sentance you posted:
Turians have a strong inclination towards public service and
self-sacrifice, so they tend to be poor entrepreneurs. To compensate,
they accepted the mercantile volus as a client race, offering protection in exchange for their fiscal expertise.
-- Codex, Secondary Entries, Council Races, Turians: Culture.
See how much sense it makes when you actually include all the facts?

5) Diffused across the entire galaxy. You know, like the krogan. Matriarch Athyeta herself makes note of this -- most asari spend the first 300 - 350 years of their lives traversing the galaxy and according to her, hardly any asari nowadays even knows what happened 300 years ago, saying that "nobody even remembers what the quarians looked like under their suits." A majority of asari aren't actively involved in the direction of asari government and economy -- that was the whole reason Matriarch Athyeta got ousted from Thessia in the first place -- because she voiced conerns about this and got laughed at for it. You failed to take that detail into consideration.

9) Dude, did we play the same games? Because the games pretty much displayed the exact opposate of that. In ME1, we were kissing the Council's ass and couldn't send any real military force against Saren and the geth, with Anderson going on a tangent after the first Council meeting with Saren about the Alliance being a minor presence in the galaxy, saying they had neither the ships nor the political pull to ever defy the Council. Humanity only got a seat on the Council because they rebuild/saved the Council after the Battle of the Citadel, as a gift to tie them over. It was all a political move making the humans Council Members, since their fleets saved the Citadel (and optionally the Council itself as well). You never take the politics into account.

11) No, they aren't. They are anything but. They hid behind their borders and had pirates do the actual fighting for the Skyllian Blitz. When humans finally did  launch a direct attack one of their actual worlds -- the moon of Torfan -- they completely retreated with their tails between their legs. They suffered majorly in the Skyllian Blitz because they expended billions of credits to try to retake the Verge, counting on using all the captured resources to recoup their losses -- when that failed, they couldn't recoup the costs of raising those mercenary armies against the Alliance, bankrupting them. Then later on, as a consiquence of this, the batarian government continued to atrophy, to the point where in 2185, Kar'Shan, the batarian homeworld, was deadlocked in a cold war between the multiple factions of the fractured batarian governement (which may or may not have been caused by the indoctrinated servents of the Leviathan of Dis). The batarians were a shell of an empire. They are nowhere near as agressive and powerful as you keep claiming them to be.
And once again, every single race is capable of terraforming. Hell, according to Tali, even the homeless quarians are capable of terraforming on small scales. Tali says it would take 600 years, but if they had a stable dextro-world to call their own, they could have setteled down (Problem was that the Council - namely the turians - never gave them that oppertunity). So, as you can see, terraforming isn't anything to brag about.

13) None of them known. It's an assumption, based on how large the galaxy is -- just like how we modern-day humans naturally assume that with how big the galaxy is, it's impossible for us to be alone in it. The Terminus is the area of the galaxy that is the least explored -- of course there would be "dozens" of species out there. But not all of them are discovered species. Hell, half the species living in the Terminus are Council species as well - colonies of asari, humans, turians, elcor, volus, hanar & drell, humans, vorcha, ect. Add that together, and your assumption falls apart.

14) He's talking about the development of the engine components, not the eezo itself. The Tantalus Drive Core is larger and more expensive then any other type -- the components are the most expensive part, not the eezo itself, as proven by how easily it's found in the galaxy, like the massive mine complexes at Omega. You're confusing the cost of creating an engine with the net-value of the eezo itself. The expese came not just from the engine, but the stealth drives that were designed to run with it. Learn the difference in these definitions.

15) Sirta Foundation was founded after the First Contact War. Meaning that the creation of Medi-Gel took place using cutting-edge galactic standard technology. Not human-based technology, but reverse-engineered Council-standardized technology and medical records from the Council Archives in order to make Medi-Gel applicable to all species -- the existance of the dextro-amino sub-type of Medi-Gel proves that it wasn't a solelly-human based venture. If it was purely human-made and human-concieved, it wouldn't be applicable to so many different species.
Once again, Henry Lawson is one of the richest humans in the galaxy, not one of the richest people. Again, get your definitions straightened out. Aria T'Loak likely has him beat in terms of wealth, as do the Citadel Councilors. Hell, by 2185, Liara T'Soni is regarded in Illium's "richest people" list. Richest human doesn't automatically equate to being one of the "richest people alive," because there are a lot of people in the galaxy that are far older and more experianced, and thus, far richer then he ever will be. It's no concidence that the asari are the wealthist race in the galaxy. All the "richest people alive" are basically asari. Henry Lawson doens't even measure up to the asari trade moguls of the Asari Republics.
Wrong. Where is it ever stated that every single one of those Refineries are Ashland? Because they don't have name-tages pal. Not every single refinery you come across is Eldfell-Ashland. They supply fuel to a lot of depots, but not every depot they supply is owned by them. Most fuel depots in Council space are turian and asari owned. You want Ashland, go to the Terminus, because in Council Space, it's all Asari and Turian made. Once again, get your definitions straightened out.
And once again, mech technology has existed for over 300 years. The quarians proved that. And the recordings in the Council Archives show that mechs of the same baseline design existed 300 years ago, meaning that Hane-Kedar basically recycled the design -- they didn't invent it, and according to the Citadel news broadcasts, aren't the only company supplying them. There are others, like Synthetic Insights, that manufacture mechs as well, on a wider scale then the smaller-scale Hane-Kedar.

If you want to continue this, take your own advice and do your own homework first before you critique others. Because so far, the lack of knowledge has been on your account, and yet you continue to act like it's fact.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 02 novembre 2013 - 04:47 .

[KaiserShep]

Wow, I'm surprised this debate still has steam. I doubt the writers even came close to putting this much thought into the minutia of the MEU.

[Erez Kristal]

silverexile17s wrote...

Snip.

  i am not going to argue on numbers with you. i just know how this always derail my threads. you walk in. put a lot of text walls and the thread loses direction or get closed. i tried to help you with putting the references. yet you choose to ignore my help and the codex.

It is easy for you to grandstand like that because you're not sitting in the hot seat, Mr. Silverexile. You 
don't have all the facts sitting in front of you. All you're doing is spouting rhetoric.(thanks shotgun julia for that line)

if you want to help come up with your own numbers for gdp, population and military then we could debate.

Modifié par erezike, 02 novembre 2013 - 08:50 .

[gisle]

I don't think BW really put an exact value on the credit, and there's tons of discrepencies between ME1 and 2 in that regard, and even a bit in ME3. Shepard might not be buying weapons themselves in the games, but manufactoring rights or a batch to outfit an entire squad.

If 1cr = 5$, Shepard would be paying 50-250$ per drink on Illium in ME2.

Barquiel wrote...

The Council said in ME1 that they're responsible for "trillions of lives" and the Asari are the most popoulus species (Anderson mentioned it in one of the novels). 180.000.000 is probably a good guess.

I remember that part of the novel, but the exact word used were 'most widespread'.Looking that word up in a dictionary, I found these two definitions:
- Spread or scattered over a considerable extent
- accepted by or occurring among many people

It just mean they're just having people in most places, because they can fit in more locations, but it doesn't have to mean they're having the highest population. Besides, if they usually don't have kids until age 350, their population probably haven't exploded.

Modifié par Gisle-Aune, 02 novembre 2013 - 08:55 .

[Erez Kristal]

Gisle-Aune wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

The Council said in ME1 that they're responsible for "trillions of lives" and the Asari are the most popoulus species (Anderson mentioned it in one of the novels). 180.000.000 is probably a good guess.

I remember that part of the novel, but the exact word used were 'most widespread'.Looking that word up in a dictionary, I found these two definitions:
- Spread or scattered over a considerable extent
- accepted by or occurring among many people

It just mean they're just having people in most places, because they can fit in more locations, but it doesn't have to mean they're having the highest population. Besides, if they usually don't have kids until age 350, their population probably haven't exploded.

Thats a very important addon gisle-aune. if you are sure about it. it would change a lot of things and fit more my initial numbers.

You have to be sure.  most popoulus and most wide spread are indeed different things.

Modifié par erezike, 02 novembre 2013 - 08:49 .