196 réponses à ce sujet

[gisle]

It's easy to find a .pdf by Googling, and CTRL-F-ing "widespread" would get you right there.

"(...)Of all the species in Council space, the asari were the most widespread…and the ones who most closely resembled humans.(...)"

[Erez Kristal]

Gisle-Aune wrote...

I don't think BW really put an exact value on the credit, and there's tons of discrepencies between ME1 and 2 in that regard, and even a bit in ME3. Shepard might not be buying weapons themselves in the games, but manufactoring rights or a batch to outfit an entire squad.

If 1cr = 5$, Shepard would be paying 50-250$ per drink on Illium in ME2.

Barquiel wrote...

The Council said in ME1 that they're responsible for "trillions of lives" and the Asari are the most popoulus species (Anderson mentioned it in one of the novels). 180.000.000 is probably a good guess.

I remember that part of the novel, but the exact word used were 'most widespread'.Looking that word up in a dictionary, I found these two definitions:
- Spread or scattered over a considerable extent
- accepted by or occurring among many people

It just mean they're just having people in most places, because they can fit in more locations, but it doesn't have to mean they're having the highest population. Besides, if they usually don't have kids until age 350, their population probably haven't exploded.

considering have to pay 12$ for a cheap drink on a cheap bar. 50$ isnt unbelieveable on ilium.
but yeah initial prices from bioware are a bit problematic. the key is to reach a concesus between all the different figures we recieve on mass effect. 
which is extremely hard to do. 5 credits for nowdays dollar. seem to reach the spot where its important. there will be obviously be some numbers who are too high or too low with 1 credit= 5$

[gisle]

12$ for a drink on a cheap bar. That sounds like Norway, which has so high wages and prices that many business can't compete internationally. We pay rouglhy $18 for 2 liters of beer here in a grocery store, where I saw it for £4 in England (might be mistaken, but it should be close)

Another thing clearly visible in this thread is that you easily dismiss arguments. When faced with one in a debate, always assume the other person know wha they're talking about. Degrading their answer (or interpreting a weaker variant of it) will just serve to make you look bad, not them. Just putting that out there.

Modifié par Gisle-Aune, 02 novembre 2013 - 09:13 .

[Erez Kristal]

Gisle-Aune wrote...

12$ for a drink on a cheap bar. That sounds like Norway, which has so high wages and prices that many business can't compete internationally. We pay rouglhy $18 for 2 liters of beer here in a grocery store, where I saw it for £4 in England (might be mistaken, but it should be close)

Another thing clearly visible in this thread is that you easily dismiss arguments. When faced with one in a debate, always assume the other person know wha they're talking about. Degrading their answer (or interpreting a weaker variant of it) will just serve to make you look bad, not them. Just putting that out there.

beer cost less. where i live(israel gdp of 33.433, 0.3L beer in cheap bars  7.1$-9$) 

I try to listen and act due to what comment people make here on the thread. but i only change things if people already took notice to the in game lore facts and did not choose to ignore them.

My replies to silverexile are more harsh because my past threads have a history with silverexile coming into them. not bothering to read what was written before or even trying to listen. not producing anything useful. and one time even getting one close with overly done untones and textwalls.


I sitll agree that 25$ for a drink on ilium is expensive.  but we would need more than that to lower the rate for 1 credit to be worth 3 or 4 dollars.

Modifié par erezike, 02 novembre 2013 - 09:24 .

[gisle]

Exactly. There is just no coherent pattern to try making any sense out of. And what you bring to the table with your opening post is purely speculations based off present day Earth. It is not like in D&D where they have a page that nail down exactly how much the currency is worth.

In ME it is just a part of game balance. I RP in this universe and have found it best to use comparisons and references like what a room would cost, daily/weekly cod of living and so on.

[Erez Kristal]

Gisle-Aune wrote...

Exactly. There is just no coherent pattern to try making any sense out of. And what you bring to the table with your opening post is purely speculations based off present day Earth. It is not like in D&D where they have a page that nail down exactly how much the currency is worth.

In ME it is just a part of game balance. I RP in this universe and have found it best to use comparisons and references like what a room would cost, daily/weekly cod of living and so on.

i did some further reading on that drink in ilium: "t[color=rgb(255, 255, 255)">he best ] hard liquor money can buy. Much more refined than that [/color]krogan swill. Price: 5"
 if its the best hard liquor money can buy and you are buying in on an expensive bar. 25$ dollars isnt out of place. however 20$ might still be more viable. the main difficulty is comparing the fighters to modern fighters. 80 million dollars tag for a mass produced modern fighter seem reasonable.(prices for fighters range from 20 m - 160 million)


here is an example of a similar bar in newyork prices there are 20$ a drink http://www.yelp.com/...t expensive bar. the lower bottom for the credit seem to be 4 dollars for credits and the higher limit is 5 dollars. thats what i call progress :-)  with more information i could reduce the number to 4 dollars a credit and live peacefully with the notion.

But i think i will simply settle down for 4 dollars a credit. its seem to be what people will have the easiest time to accept while still working within the boundaries set by our world and the mass effect universe.  i will begin to update the charts with new numbers for the asari and 1 credit  = 4 dollars.

Modifié par erezike, 02 novembre 2013 - 11:43 .

[silverexile17s]

erezike wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Snip.

  i am not going to argue on numbers with you. i just know how this always derail my threads. you walk in. put a lot of text walls and the thread loses direction or get closed. i tried to help you with putting the references. yet you choose to ignore my help and the codex.

It is easy for you to grandstand like that because you're not sitting in the hot seat, Mr. Silverexile. You 
don't have all the facts sitting in front of you. All you're doing is spouting rhetoric.(thanks shotgun julia for that line)

if you want to help come up with your own numbers for gdp, population and military then we could debate.

Once again, you do the same thing as usual -- someone debates the numbers with you, and you brush it all aside without even stopping to consider what they're saying. These text walls are to illustrate just how much you missed, and they got longer because you repeately ignore previous points, and continue to make further flawed conclusions off invalid data. It's a domino effect -- one you yourself cause by brushing off everyone and anyone with a seperate opinion then you. The fact that you're talking about my posting methods rather then the data itself is proof of that -- stop taking it so personal. If someone points out gaps in your logic, that's all it is -- nothing personal.

That's your discription, not mine. That sentance describes your actions. -- you are the one that ignored the refrences I put from the Codex and from the game: Matriarch Athyeta, Balak, the Codex entries on turian/volus culture, ect. You look at all that, yet still try to act like I "ignore the Codex."
As alwyas, you brush off everyone that has a different opinion, saying they don't have facts, even though they list off accurate sources and quotes from the game. The only one ignoring the Codex is you. After all, that was the reason @Julia left your wtiting team, wasn't it -- because you ignored Codex and pre-established lore to the point where she figured it was better off to just re-boot the entire series from scratch. And again, there's that arrogance of yours -- "all the facts, sitting in the hot seat." You seem to be under the impression that you have all the answers -- when, as proven in the above, you don't. It's the same thing as the BioWare devs -- you can't admit that you don't have all the answers. And it's going to sink your projects, like it sunk ME3 for BioWare -- I don't want that.

I'm no math wiz. I'm simply saying that you can't use these incorrect facts you were using to form a basis from. It's like building a building with faulty materials -- no matter how good the plan is, if the materials are wrong, the building will fall through. Make sure your facts are accurate before you base calculations off them.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 02 novembre 2013 - 06:59 .

[Arcian]

silverexile17s wrote...

erezike wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Snip.

  i am not going to argue on numbers with you. i just know how this always derail my threads. you walk in. put a lot of text walls and the thread loses direction or get closed. i tried to help you with putting the references. yet you choose to ignore my help and the codex.

It is easy for you to grandstand like that because you're not sitting in the hot seat, Mr. Silverexile. You 
don't have all the facts sitting in front of you. All you're doing is spouting rhetoric.(thanks shotgun julia for that line)

if you want to help come up with your own numbers for gdp, population and military then we could debate.

Once again, you do the same thing as usual -- someone debates the numbers with you, and you brush it all aside without even stopping to consider what they're saying. These text walls are to illustrate just how much you missed, and they got longer because you repeately ignore previous points, and continue to make further flawed conclusions off invalid data. It's a domino effect -- one you yourself cause by brushing off everyone and anyone with a seperate opinion then you. The fact that you're talking about my posting methods rather then the data itself is proof of that -- stop taking it so personal. If someone points out gaps in your logic, that's all it is -- nothing personal.

That's your discription, not mine. That sentance describes your actions. -- you are the one that ignored the refrences I put from the Codex and from the game: Matriarch Athyeta, Balak, the Codex entries on turian/volus culture, ect. You look at all that, yet still try to act like I "ignore the Codex."
As alwyas, you brush off everyone that has a different opinion, saying they don't have facts, even though they list off accurate sources and quotes from the game. The only one ignoring the Codex is you. After all, that was the reason @Julia left your wtiting team, wasn't it -- because you ignored Codex and pre-established lore to the point where she figured it was better off to just re-boot the entire series from scratch. And again, there's that arrogance of yours -- "all the facts, sitting in the hot seat." You seem to be under the impression that you have all the answers -- when, as proven in the above, you don't. It's the same thing as the BioWare devs -- you can't admit that you don't have all the answers. And it's going to sink your projects, like it sunk ME3 for BioWare -- I don't want that.

I'm no math wiz. I'm simply saying that you can't use these incorrect facts you were using to form a basis from. It's like building a building with faulty materials -- no matter how good the plan is, if the materials are wrong, the building will fall through. Make sure your facts are accurate before you base calculations off them.

Please marry me.

[Dot.Shadow]

Oh wow, thanks. This is golden for something I'm working on.

[Arcian]

Dot.Shadow wrote...

Oh wow, thanks. This is golden for something I'm working on.

If you care about accuracy, you should refrain from using Erezike's values.

[Erez Kristal]

silverexile17s wrote...

snip

my numbers are fine. they are assumptions afcourse. but they are assumptions based on game lore and life information.

You base your criticism on on part of the game lore. clinging to things like what ballack said who were only relevant 20 years ago(gametime) when the council was backing humanity... its like saying australlia is stronger than china because it is backed by the US
or uk was stronger than germany in world world 2 because it was backed by the US.

I always take into account what other people are saying. which is why i greatly lowered the value of credit from its inital target exchange rate. which is why i set the different values as they are. i read many different opinions regarding this topic from many different timelines. i changed the asari location based on new information presented on this thread. but i cannot change it everytime to satasfiy another mass effect fan. a logical concesus must be achieved that fit the mass effect lore and real life.

But once again we will reach a dead end. because you fail to produce numbers of your own. i have written very clearly what i am basing the numbers here on. arcian disagrees with me because he feels the citadel should be cheaper than norway or hawai. or that a modern space jet fighter should be greatly cheaper than what we pay for jet fighter today.

So please, produce your own numbers...  one you do that we can engane a throughout debate. working on vacuum wont help.



Ps - You were never invited to the reimagined team which may have caused some discontent for you. 1) shotgun julia did not truly leave. she is still around offering feedback. 2) shotgun julia went to continue to persue her old alternate canon to mass effect, a vision with different goals than what we have in the reimagiend team. the different goals have nothing to do with the understanding of the in game lore. they are only related to where we want to take the alternate plot, they are related to the paragon-renegade scales.

Modifié par erezike, 03 novembre 2013 - 07:41 .

[Arcian]

erezike wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

snip

my numbers are fine. they are assumptions afcourse. but they are assumptions based on game lore and life information.

You base your criticism on on part of the game lore. clinging to things like what ballack said who were only relevant 20 years ago(gametime) when the council was backing humanity... its like saying australlia is stronger than china because it is backed by the US
or uk was stronger than germany in world world 2 because it was backed by the US.

I always take into account what other people are saying. which is why i greatly lowered the value of credit from its inital target exchange rate. which is why i set the different values as they are. i read many different opinions regarding this topic from many different timelines. i changed the asari location based on new information presented on this thread. but i cannot change it everytime to satasfiy another mass effect fan. a logical concesus must be achieved that fit the mass effect lore and real life.

But once again we will reach a dead end. because you fail to produce numbers of your own. i have written very clearly what i am basing the numbers here on. arcian disagrees with me because he feels the citadel should be cheaper than norway or hawai. or that a modern space jet fighter should be greatly cheaper than what we pay for jet fighter today.

No, I am disagreeing with you because you fail to grasp how currencies work and what effects they have on a global/galactic market, because you fail to acknowledge inflation as a VITAL part of calculating currency rates, because you base all your miscalculated numbers either on BioWare's flat out wrong numbers or real life values without accounting for a 170 year disparity in the currency rates.

To put it simply, I am disagreeing with you because you're doing it completely wrong.

You only really have two choices when it comes to the Citadel's prices - either you acknowledge BioWare's in-game values as invalid and recalculate ALL prices, and I really mean ALL OF THEM, to get the "ultra-expensive" standard you're looking for. That means no more 5 credit fish, no more cheap magazines. These things now cost at least a few hundred credits a pop, and that's not going into the prices of the more pricey stuff.

If you refuse to do that, your only choice is to accept that the Citadel is a cheap place to live, because that's what it is if you're going by BioWare's values. If you refuse to accept even this, then you're creating a supermassive black hole of broken logic in your calculations.

In both of these cases, you absolutely have to MASSIVELY downgrade the value of the credit, because 4 of today's dollars per credit is too strong. That's still like 612 of 2183's dollars per credit. It hyperinflates the Alliance's economy to the point where it can't compete or do anything of value.

To be honest, and this has been bugging me right from the start:

I don't see why you're using today's dollars to calculate the credit 170 years from now in the first place. Just use the dollar value 170 years from now to get the credit value you're after. Even if a credit is worth 4 dollars in 2183, that's still acceptable and won't break the Alliance's economy.

[Dot.Shadow]

Arcian wrote...

Dot.Shadow wrote...

Oh wow, thanks. This is golden for something I'm working on.

If you care about accuracy, you should refrain from using Erezike's values.

Oh I don't expect the numbers to be spot on, honestly I expect there to be some inaccuracies as it is in fact impossible to find the right numbers for Mass Effect. Bioware never typed out all the necessary information in the first place. But that's hardly the OPs fault.

I may make some adjustments. The Systems Alliance statistics seem very strange to me even at a glance. And glancing over this is all I've done so far. Scaling things down/up to whatever I personally find more realistic might be something I do. But the groundwork he's made is quite useful for me.

Modifié par Dot.Shadow, 03 novembre 2013 - 10:42 .

[silverexile17s]

erezike wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

snip

my numbers are fine. they are assumptions afcourse. but they are assumptions based on game lore and life information.

You base your criticism on on part of the game lore. clinging to things like what ballack said who were only relevant 20 years ago(gametime) when the council was backing humanity... its like saying australlia is stronger than china because it is backed by the US
or uk was stronger than germany in world world 2 because it was backed by the US.

I always take into account what other people are saying. which is why i greatly lowered the value of credit from its inital target exchange rate. which is why i set the different values as they are. i read many different opinions regarding this topic from many different timelines. i changed the asari location based on new information presented on this thread. but i cannot change it everytime to satasfiy another mass effect fan. a logical concesus must be achieved that fit the mass effect lore and real life.

But once again we will reach a dead end. because you fail to produce numbers of your own. i have written very clearly what i am basing the numbers here on. arcian disagrees with me because he feels the citadel should be cheaper than norway or hawai. or that a modern space jet fighter should be greatly cheaper than what we pay for jet fighter today.

So please, produce your own numbers...  one you do that we can engane a throughout debate. working on vacuum wont help.



Ps - You were never invited to the reimagined team which may have caused some discontent for you. 1) shotgun julia did not truly leave. she is still around offering feedback. 2) shotgun julia went to continue to persue her old alternate canon to mass effect, a vision with different goals than what we have in the reimagiend team. the different goals have nothing to do with the understanding of the in game lore. they are only related to where we want to take the alternate plot, they are related to the paragon-renegade scales.

No, Your numbers aren't fine, because (A) you're making extrapolations off current Earth-based money to try and calculate the value of a credit chip, and ( you're making innaccurate assumptions about several major/minor governments and factions in the Mass Effect galaxy.

Once again, that sentance describes you - you make assumptions on part of the lore, but you refuse to acknowledge it as a whole.
Example: You took the "Turians are bad busniessmen" sentance from the Secondary Codex on "Turians: Culture," but ignored the second half of that same sentance which detailed how they compensated for this failing by absorbing the Volus into the Turian Hierarchy. You are extremely selective in which parts of the lore you acknowledge, (Pre-humanity statsitics on batarians, passing glances at asari populace numbers vs actual asari workforce numbers, ect), and because you don't base your calculations off the gestalt whole of all the lore combined together, your calculations fail most of the time.
Also, IDK if you realize this, but Balak told you that they are in a desperate situation because of that event. He says that they never recovered, and that this is the entire reason he's doing all this in the first place. He fully admits that the batarians are a shell of what they once were and are basically nothing now, and he's doing this for revenge because of that. And IDK if you realized this either, but the Council didn't back humanity against the Batarians. In fact, they didn't back anyone in the Skyllian Blitz -- the Verge was neutral territory due to it's proximity to the Terminus Systems. The Council refused to help the batarians -- but when did anyone say they helped the Alliance either? In fact, according to Councilor Sparatus during his meeting with Ambassador Udina following Eden Prime, the Council urged humanity not to colonize the Skillyan Verge and Attacan Traverse, due to how close it was to the Terminus Systems. The Council remained neutral in all this -- that's why both batarians and humans are anagonized by  them. Because they, like always, sat on their asses and did nothing while both sides fought over possession of the Verge. Re-read your sources -- you'll note that there isn't one single mention of the Council giving support to the Alliance during the Blitz. It was all Alliance-managed and Alliance-operated.
So, no, it's not like Australia or Germany.

No, you don't. That was the reason @Julia left the re-write team of yours, or why half your message boards become arguements between you and anyone that finds a flaw in your reasonings. Because you regard other's opinions with an attitude that one could describe as being snide. And if it's someone you've butted heads with before, then you instantly assume a bias against anything they say -- that's not being very open to other people's comments. That's called "selective hearing" and/ or "selective reasoning." You basically cherry-pick who's options you want to acknowledge, and who's you don't.
And why does the Mass Effect lore need to fit to modern life? It's a fictional game set nearly 200 years in the future. Everything from the finacial state of the world, to the structure of the economy, to the cutural definitions of the Earth's many different factions, could change radically in the interviening time. Using real-life standards is the absolute opposite of what you should do. Mass Effect is a fictional setting -- using real-world state of events to gauge the game just doesn't fly.  You have no clue whatsoever about how our Earth's cultures, economy, or finantial state changed -- that's half the reason why we never actually see much religious factions in ME. In fact, Ashley Williams seems to hint to things like that being looked down upon by the galaxy at large. Therefore, using real life is completely and utterly pointless to this. With ME, all you need to do is make sure it fit's the in-game lore. Because, again, this game is a work of fiction.

Because I don't need to -- I'm not the one putting out calculations and numbers. You are. And if you want them to be accurate, you need to make sure the source material is sound. You can make perfect calculations, and it will all be absolutly worthless if the base numbers weren't the right ones. The solution would be valid, but it wouldn't be right because it's not the asnwer to the question.
Example: You compute 9 x 66. This equals 594. But after you fill it in, the teacher reveals to you that you misinterperted the question -- the question was actually 9 x 68 - you just misread it. You failed because you didn't get accurate data, and thus your solution failed. It's the same base principle with all math -- if you don't accurate starting data, then all your end results will be wrong, even if the caculations themselves were sound. That's why @Arcian and I disargee -- because you're making your extrapolatiopns on incomplete, unconfirmed, or inaccurate data in conjucntion with guesswork -- the chances of even a fraction of it being as accurate as you claim it is woule be low. That's not hate or personal bias -- that's just being realistic.

Therefore, my point is that there is no reason to try and put up my own numbers -- there are a lot of variables to take into account that you yourself haven't even touched, and as proven before, you have a tendency tp cherry-pick what you think matters in the opinions presented to you. You need accurate numbers first. I'm not here to make my own numbers and conclusions -- I simply want to ensure yours are accurate.

PS - What? That's what you think this is about? A grudge for not getting in?
Dude, if I wanted to join your group, I would have requested to join. I never once made such a request. Where the hell are you getting "discontent" from when I never made any move, nor voiced any desire to join the re-write? If I wanted to get in, don't you think I would have made a request to join? I think it's really, really arrogant of you to say things like that when I never even once tried to join your group to begin with.
I mean, you were the one that came to me privately via PM to ask what I thought of your plot, and when I disagreed with several points, you opted to abruptly cut contact rather then try and work through them.
1) Not what she said. She quit the re-write team's writing devision due to conflict with you on what direction the story should take.
2) Because she gave up on yours working. You and her conflicted so damn much she figured it was better to re-boot the series, using her own vision.
The entire reason you faced conflict from me and others to begin with was becaue you disregarded major pieces of lore repeatedly. That's the long and short of it. It was simple conflict with what you're views and interpertations on the lore were. It was never anything personal.

[gisle]

At least check your facts before spouting numbers. Any species other than humans will have way more than 3% of their population in the military.

Codex: Systems Alliance: Military Doctrine
"(...)The Council regards the Alliance as a "sleeping giant". Less than 3% of humans volunteer to serve in their military, a lower proportion than any other species."

Modifié par Gisle-Aune, 04 novembre 2013 - 08:52 .

[Erez Kristal]

Gisle-Aune wrote...

At least check your facts before spouting numbers. Any species other than humans will have way more than 3% of their population in the military.

Codex: Systems Alliance: Military Doctrine
"(...)The Council regards the Alliance as a "sleeping giant". Less than 3% of humans volunteer to serve in their military, a lower proportion than any other species."

That's not correct.
3% volunteer is a very dodgy number. for how long do they volunteer?
3% serve for their entire life is an immense number.  just think of the economical strain.

for example 5% of the asari volunteer. but only 0.01% are accepted and survive the rough training and extreme selection process which is why the codex facts also mention how there are so few real asari soldiers in the galaxy.

Sleeping giant may refer to the human potential which could only be increased with more growth in the volunteer pool.

or 4 % salarian volunteer but most of them serve for a routine of one month. while the average human soldier serve for 40 years in different roles. (18-58)

Modifié par erezike, 07 novembre 2013 - 07:20 .

[Erez Kristal]

silverexile17s wrote...

snip

still no numbers...

Text walls are no alternative to actual numbers. treat me like a fellow accountant not a spoke man. I want numbers. if you want to convince me that I am wrong and you are wrong. show me numbers that fit your perception of the mass effect universe. its the only way to see what is right.

And please don't give me any of that burden of proof nonsense. that would get us nowhere. and wouldnt help the mass effect universe establish solid ground for galactic numbers.

Modifié par erezike, 07 novembre 2013 - 06:23 .

[Erez Kristal]

Arcian wrote...
snip

I think we both misunderstood each other greatly here.
I am not saying the value of the dollar will be the same in 2183, far from it.

I am only using the concept of the dollar today as purchasing power.
in 2183. it will be greatly inflated and most likely a few zeros will be knocked from it or a new worldwide currency would be invented to replace it.

the only reason I am using the 1 credit = 4 dollars is in order to explain the mass effect prices. in today terms of purchasing power.
we could use gold or gems I don't care. convert today dollars to gems or gold and use convert it back to credits in 2183. the main question will always be what is the average income in credits in 2183.
what is an expensive meal, car flight, gun.
and so on.

[Arcian]

erezike wrote...

Arcian wrote...
snip

I think we both misunderstood each other greatly here.
I am not saying the value of the dollar will be the same in 2183, far from it.

That's not the issue - the issue is that you're valuating the credit in 2183 based on the dollars we have today. If you were basing the value of the credit on dollars from 2183, 4 dollar per credit would be within reasonable levels. Still quite too strong for a trade currency, but not completely unrealistic.

But if you're still basing the value of the credit on dollars from 2013, then 4 dollars per credit means each credit is worth 612 dollars from 2183, which is crazy hyperinflated and would not allow the Alliance to be as economically strong as they are.

erezike wrote...

I am only using the concept of the dollar today as purchasing power.

Why? What's the point of using today's dollar when you can just use the dollar from 2183? The historical inflation rate in the US has been 3%. Go from there and calculate the rest.

erezike wrote...

in 2183. it will be greatly inflated and most likely a few zeros will be knocked from it or a new worldwide currency would be invented to replace it.

As you may or may not recall, I actually did the math on that:

Each dollar in 2013 is worth 153 dollar in 2183. That's 0.0065 of the value in 2013.

The credit will be similarly inflated, if not more because it's been in use for 2000 years. That is, provided it has not been regularly deflated to keep market prices in check, which is likely the case since the fish on the presidium would cost tens of thousands of credits each otherwise.

erezike wrote...

the only reason I am using the 1 credit = 4 dollars is in order to explain the mass effect prices. in today terms of purchasing power.

You're going about it the wrong way if that is the case.

erezike wrote...

we could use gold or gems I don't care. convert today dollars to gems or gold and use convert it back to credits in 2183. the main question will always be what is the average income in credits in 2183.
what is an expensive meal, car flight, gun.
and so on.

The issue isn't the dollar, the issue is the credit. You can't base its value of what the dollar is worth today, because that creates a massive and very glaring value discrepancy.

[Erez Kristal]

Arcian wrote...

erezike wrote...

Arcian wrote...
snip

I think we both misunderstood each other greatly here.
I am not saying the value of the dollar will be the same in 2183, far from it.

That's not the issue - the issue is that you're valuating the credit in 2183 based on the dollars we have today. If you were basing the value of the credit on dollars from 2183, 4 dollar per credit would be within reasonable levels. Still quite too strong for a trade currency, but not completely unrealistic.

But if you're still basing the value of the credit on dollars from 2013, then 4 dollars per credit means each credit is worth 612 dollars from 2183, which is crazy hyperinflated and would not allow the Alliance to be as economically strong as they are.

erezike wrote...

I am only using the concept of the dollar today as purchasing power.

Why? What's the point of using today's dollar when you can just use the dollar from 2183? The historical inflation rate in the US has been 3%. Go from there and calculate the rest.

erezike wrote...

in 2183. it will be greatly inflated and most likely a few zeros will be knocked from it or a new worldwide currency would be invented to replace it.

As you may or may not recall, I actually did the math on that:

Each dollar in 2013 is worth 153 dollar in 2183. That's 0.0065 of the value in 2013.

The credit will be similarly inflated, if not more because it's been in use for 2000 years. That is, provided it has not been regularly deflated to keep market prices in check, which is likely the case since the fish on the presidium would cost tens of thousands of credits each otherwise.

erezike wrote...

the only reason I am using the 1 credit = 4 dollars is in order to explain the mass effect prices. in today terms of purchasing power.

You're going about it the wrong way if that is the case.

erezike wrote...

we could use gold or gems I don't care. convert today dollars to gems or gold and use convert it back to credits in 2183. the main question will always be what is the average income in credits in 2183.
what is an expensive meal, car flight, gun.
and so on.

The issue isn't the dollar, the issue is the credit. You can't base its value of what the dollar is worth today, because that creates a massive and very glaring value discrepancy.

We can use the inflated dollar value in 2183: 153 dollars. knock two zeros from it.
1.53 dollars then use the equation that a credit in mass effect universe is worth 6.12 2183  dollars if it makes it  easier. I just think that the common person would have easier time understanding 1 credit= 4 dollars.

and just so you know 1 dollar = 6.0456 Norwegian Krone.
assuming the asari race is the most influential economic race and their gdp is compared to the usa.
while I compared the human gdp to the Norwegian.

Modifié par erezike, 07 novembre 2013 - 10:33 .

[silverexile17s]

erezike wrote...

Gisle-Aune wrote...

At least check your facts before spouting numbers. Any species other than humans will have way more than 3% of their population in the military.

Codex: Systems Alliance: Military Doctrine
"(...)The Council regards the Alliance as a "sleeping giant". Less than 3% of humans volunteer to serve in their military, a lower proportion than any other species."

That's not correct.
3% volunteer is a very dodgy number. for how long do they volunteer?
3% serve for their entire life is an immense number.  just think of the economical strain.

for example 5% of the asari volunteer. but only 0.01% are accepted and survive the rough training and extreme selection process which is why the codex facts also mention how there are so few real asari soldiers in the galaxy.

Sleeping giant may refer to the human potential which could only be increased with more growth in the volunteer pool.

or 4 % salarian volunteer but most of them serve for a routine of one month. while the average human soldier serve for 40 years in different roles. (18-58)

That's not correct.
3%, 5% at the absolute highest, is the standard constant -- that's based on the steady recruitment/enlistment and retirement/discarge rate over the 26+ years that the Alliance has existed. The numbers in the Codex are modern standard -- 3% is the avarage recruitment rate for all humanity across the entire galaxy. Trying to debate otherwise is just argueing semantics and thus, completely pointless. And of course it's not their entire life -- you can renew your enlistment if you choose, or step out whenever you want. Once again, IDK if you realize this, but humanity isn't the Turian Hierarchy -- lifelong military service is optional for us humans.

And where are you getting "5% of the asari" from when it's never once stated just what their recruitment rate is? In fact, the salarians would be more likely to have that number, since the majority of their forces consist of Spy and infiltration divisions instead of an actual navy. The asari, having the highest population, would have a hell of a lot more then just 5% of their people enlisted. I mean, if you aren't blowing the numbers out of proportion, you're underrating them immensly. Whatever you're looking at, it;s likely for recruitment into their Commandos, and not their standard millita forces. Commandos are the elite forces, not the standard military force. Once again, you fail to use more then one piece of the lore at a time.

Dude, read the Codex yourself -- you're argueing a moot point.

Salarians are lifelong spies. Their military is small, but still larger then humanity due to being a bit more widespread then them. They also keep a larger infiltratior force then they do an actual navy -- and STG isn't counted among the volunteer forces that make up the Salarian Navy, since unlike them, STG train lifelong to get their rainks. And in actuality, about 20-30 years is the avarage service time for Alliance soldiers.

[silverexile17s]

erezike wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

snip

still no numbers...

Text walls are no alternative to actual numbers. treat me like a fellow accountant not a spoke man. I want numbers. if you want to convince me that I am wrong and you are wrong. show me numbers that fit your perception of the mass effect universe. its the only way to see what is right.

And please don't give me any of that burden of proof nonsense. that would get us nowhere. and wouldnt help the mass effect universe establish solid ground for galactic numbers.

Because I'm not interested in computing numbers with someone that's got innacurate facts. There's no point because your baseline facts are already incorrect, and thus your results will be too, making this "numbers" thing completely and utterlly pointless.

If you want me to treat you as a "fellow accountant," act like one and get your source facts accurate *first* before you base calculations off of them. There's no point in argueing it if you can't get the facts you based them off of straight. I want accurate facts, *Then* you can argue numbers. Because since the facts you used are incorrect, the numbers would logiclally be too, meaning there's no point to providing my own numbers when yours are wrong. As much as you try to act like it, this isn't rocket sicence @erezkie. Innacurate facts = inaccurate conclusions 100%. That's true for everything -- you don't need numbers or math to prove that. You can just look at the facts, see that the source material is different then what you used, and logically come to th conclusion that the calcualtions based off the correct source material will be different then the ones you made off the inaccurate material you used previously. You don't need numbers or math to figure that out -- you can just compare your sources to the original and the differences between them prove it.

As I said before, the "facts" you based your calculations off of are *not* supported by in-game lore or cannon. Meaning that those calculations of yours are already incorrect to begin with. And you were the one that said "burden of proof," not me. I countered by showing the simple truth -- what you based your GDP numbers off of are invalid because they go against what is established in the Codex and the in-game conversations.
End of story.

[Erez Kristal]

silverexile17s wrote...

snip

I put in recruitment rates for the asari and salarian as an example. but I did not assemble them into my writing in any way. the only goal of putting these imaginary volunteer rate was to show that volunteering rates is a very dodgy number since it doesn't take into account the length of service. and without the length of service you cannot know what is the size of the population serving in the military.

any conclusion attempted to be deducted out of this codex input will be moot.


As for not wanting to present numbers... without numbers you are just spouting false accusation of my interpretation of the codex. while missing the point at the same time that I have accounted in my calculations the entire available codex. as well as other people arguments made  over the years and perception of the species in game.  its hard to comprehend all the calculations that were needed to create these numbers. which is why you cling on a very basic level to bits of codex without seeing the whole picture of many codex bits piecing together.

the only way to truly realize the big picture is by trying to build numbers of your own. when you will do that you will take the journey needed to comprehend the mass effect universe numbers. insisting on not doing that is simply a lazy behavior.

Remember.
1) trillions of people in the galaxy.
2) mobile human garrison. reduces upkeep costs.
3) humans are strong.
4) Military strength order.   Turian>geth>asari>salarian>human>batarians
5) economic order.  asari>turian>salarian>elcor>human  human are right behind the elcor
6) Asari, Elcor. volus, batarian. salarian, hanar, asari are all space faring for more than 2200-2700 years 
7) human population is maxed at 12.5 billion.
8) asari tend to take their time.
9) turian lives up to 150. and spend their 15-30 in the army. that's 10% military serving personal which also does the police work on turian colonies, building, medic support and true militaristic roles. expect extreme upkeepcosts.
10) human race is at war time(geth, collectors, terrorists) and needs to contribute ships to the citadel fleets.

 

Modifié par erezike, 08 novembre 2013 - 10:18 .

[David7204]

None of these numbers are worth anything.

[Erez Kristal]

David7204 wrote...

None of these numbers are worth anything.

how about a more constructive criticism.  

Modifié par erezike, 08 novembre 2013 - 10:20 .