196 réponses à ce sujet

[David7204]

Don't waste your time with 'data' that carries so many assumptions and is based on such shaky reasoning?

[Arcian]

[quote]erezike wrote...

[quote]Arcian wrote...

[quote]erezike wrote...

[quote]Arcian wrote...
snip
[/quote]
I think we both misunderstood each other greatly here.
I am not saying the value of the dollar will be the same in 2183, far from it.[/quote]
That's not the issue - the issue is that you're valuating the credit in 2183 based on the dollars we have today. If you were basing the value of the credit on dollars from 2183, 4 dollar per credit would be within reasonable levels. Still quite too strong for a trade currency, but not completely unrealistic.

But if you're still basing the value of the credit on dollars from 2013, then 4 dollars per credit means each credit is worth 612 dollars from 2183, which is crazy hyperinflated and would not allow the Alliance to be as economically strong as they are.

[quote]erezike wrote...

I am only using the concept of the dollar today as purchasing power.[/quote]
Why? What's the point of using today's dollar when you can just use the dollar from 2183? The historical inflation rate in the US has been 3%. Go from there and calculate the rest.

[quote]erezike wrote...

in 2183. it will be greatly inflated and most likely a few zeros will be knocked from it or a new worldwide currency would be invented to replace it.[/quote]
As you may or may not recall, I actually did the math on that:

Each dollar in 2013 is worth 153 dollar in 2183. That's 0.0065 of the value in 2013.

The credit will be similarly inflated, if not more because it's been in use for 2000 years. That is, provided it has not been regularly deflated to keep market prices in check, which is likely the case since the fish on the presidium would cost tens of thousands of credits each otherwise.

[quote]erezike wrote...

the only reason I am using the 1 credit = 4 dollars is in order to explain the mass effect prices. in today terms of purchasing power.[/quote]
You're going about it the wrong way if that is the case.

[quote]erezike wrote...

we could use gold or gems I don't care. convert today dollars to gems or gold and use convert it back to credits in 2183. the main question will always be what is the average income in credits in 2183.
what is an expensive meal, car flight, gun.
and so on.
[/quote]
The issue isn't the dollar, the issue is the credit. You can't base its value of what the dollar is worth today, because that creates a massive and very glaring value discrepancy.

[/quote]
We can use the inflated dollar value in 2183: 153 dollars. knock two zeros from it.[/quote]
So far so good, I've projected a quite significant deflation too.

[quote]erezike wrote...

1.53 dollars then use the equation that a credit in mass effect universe is worth 6.12 2183  dollars if it makes it  easier. I just think that the common person would have easier time understanding 1 credit= 4 dollars.[/quote]
Great, this is much better.

[quote]erezike wrote...

and just so you know 1 dollar = 6.0456 Norwegian Krone.[/quote]
I'm from Sweden, here a dollar is worth 6.5348 SEK. So the concept is not alien to me at all.

[quote]erezike wrote...

assuming the asari race is the most influential economic race and their gdp is compared to the usa.
while I compared the human gdp to the Norwegian.[/quote]
Like a lot of people have stated, it's not a great idea to directly translate a real life country's GDP to one of the fictional interstellar nations. The variables are too different.

One quite significant issue is that even with a comparably high GDP (as it is in the case of both Norway and Sweden), the Alliance's comparatively weak dollar and small population would not allow for the kind of military forces they field in-game. Either that, or the military forces of the other races are too small. If I had to go with anything, it would be the latter. The Alliance's military power would still pale in comparison due to their small population, especially with a weaker dollar.

[KaiserShep]

1 credit = 6 varren. This is known.

[Erez Kristal]

David7204 wrote...

Don't waste your time with 'data' that carries so many assumptions and is based on such shaky reasoning?

every theory begins with assumptions. and receives more acclaim once its based on imperial evidence. mass effect economy information left a lot to be desired. these assumptions are based on in game facts.
there are limitations to the assumptions and they have to play inside the giving range, seen above.

so if you aren't bothering to participate in the research yourself why even post a comment? you obviously don't have anything to contribute to the topic. and tend to leave topics once you have been proven wrong or beyond your realm of knowledge.

Please try to be more constructive next time .

[KaiserShep]

The economy of the MEU was never truly essential to the narrative, so it's reasonable that the writers just don't give it any more attention than maybe some random reference by a volus, or someone complaining about how expensive something is. "Space currency" is just there to establish that there is in fact a galactic economy to ground it in its own reality, but not much more than that. If the next Mass Effect game has us playing the galactic version of Gordon Gekko, then maybe the details about how credits work will matter.

When Malcolm Reynolds and his team get paid for pulling off a heist, we don't care about the value of the money they receive or what it actually translates to. We only need to know that the money holds some kind of value.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 08 novembre 2013 - 07:27 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

How the Mass Effect Universe Economy Works: 23000 CR for an electric timer that dispenses fish food, probably manufactured by Lockheed. Remember those $500 toilet seats that were identical to $9 toilet seats but were $500 because they went inside a B-52? And then there was the $200 flat head screwdriver that was identical to the $7.95 screwdriver you could buy at Sears. No, most of you probably don't. I'm guessing the DoD is still getting ripped off by private business and don't forget the graft and corruption that has nothing to do with what normal people pay for stuff. Shepard would be able to buy things cheaper from local shops with cash, and not places that sell to government militaries. You know the guy who is selling weapons out of the back of that shuttle parked over there. And this video.

[Erez Kristal]

Arcian wrote...
One quite significant issue is that even with a comparably high GDP (as it is in the case of both Norway and Sweden), the Alliance's comparatively weak dollar and small population would not allow for the kind of military forces they field in-game. Either that, or the military forces of the other races are too small. If I had to go with anything, it would be the latter. The Alliance's military power would still pale in comparison due to their small population, especially with a weaker dollar.

the values I used were arbitrary in order to make it easier for people to grasp humanity potential economic strength. people understand things better when they see real life examples. without looking on real life charts some people would never believe that the yearly gdp in india is 1500 while its 99000 in Norway.

Such examples make it easier to explain humanity strength in a relative way to its population size.

the main keys to the population vs military strength integrate what you wrote above, even all factors.
1) most races with the exception of the turian have low investments on their military
2) the mobile garrisons allows the alliance to punch way above its weight in terms of military investments. less salaries and a lot less investments on planet defenses in comparison to other species. humanity small population size even contributes to this factors since it has less planets and populations to protect with permanent garrisons. greatly reducing its military spending.
3) even with all this. the turians, the asari and salarian are all much stronger than the alliance. if we use the dreadnought count. the salarian fleets have two times the strength of the alliance fleets with a lot more planetary defences  and more ground troops.

for math purposes.
System alliance stronger gdp and fear of galactic dangers allows them to invest much higher % of their gdp on military defences.
the gdp isn't worth two times the military investment per person. its volume leads to four the investment per person.
Mobile garrison leads to the system alliance ability to strike 2 times above its weight.

Combining he two humanity strikes eight above its population weight.  the salarian who have a little less than 16 times the human population numbers here.  strike almost two times above humanity. which fit with this equation.



About alliance numbers. right now I have put the active alliance personal at 125 million. that's still fairly high considering even if you stack them all to colonies, space stations and every alliance ship you probally wouldn't fit more than 20 millions there.   the ship numbers aren't that frightening once you start to attach ship building cost and upkeep to them. each ship is more beneficial to the human corporations and greatly return the value on the investment.

Modifié par erezike, 08 novembre 2013 - 08:03 .

[Erez Kristal]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

How the Mass Effect Universe Economy Works: 23000 CR for an electric timer that dispenses fish food, probably manufactured by Lockheed. Remember those $500 toilet seats that were identical to $9 toilet seats but were $500 because they went inside a B-52? And then there was the $200 flat head screwdriver that was identical to the $7.95 screwdriver you could buy at Sears. No, most of you probably don't. I'm guessing the DoD is still getting ripped off by private business and don't forget the graft and corruption that has nothing to do with what normal people pay for stuff. Shepard would be able to buy things cheaper from local shops with cash, and not places that sell to government militaries. You know the guy who is selling weapons out of the back of that shuttle parked over there. And this video.

I Love these comments of your Julia.

Modifié par erezike, 08 novembre 2013 - 08:00 .

[silverexile17s]

erezike wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

snip

I put in recruitment rates for the asari and salarian as an example. but I did not assemble them into my writing in any way. the only goal of putting these imaginary volunteer rate was to show that volunteering rates is a very dodgy number since it doesn't take into account the length of service. and without the length of service you cannot know what is the size of the population serving in the military.

any conclusion attempted to be deducted out of this codex input will be moot.


As for not wanting to present numbers... without numbers you are just spouting false accusation of my interpretation of the codex. while missing the point at the same time that I have accounted in my calculations the entire available codex. as well as other people arguments made  over the years and perception of the species in game.  its hard to comprehend all the calculations that were needed to create these numbers. which is why you cling on a very basic level to bits of codex without seeing the whole picture of many codex bits piecing together.

the only way to truly realize the big picture is by trying to build numbers of your own. when you will do that you will take the journey needed to comprehend the mass effect universe numbers. insisting on not doing that is simply a lazy behavior.

Remember.
1) trillions of people in the galaxy.
2) mobile human garrison. reduces upkeep costs.
3) humans are strong.
4) Military strength order.   Turian>geth>asari>salarian>human>batarians
5) economic order.  asari>turian>salarian>elcor>human  human are right behind the elcor
6) Asari, Elcor. volus, batarian. salarian, hanar, asari are all space faring for more than 2200-2700 years 
7) human population is maxed at 12.5 billion.
8) asari tend to take their time.
9) turian lives up to 150. and spend their 15-30 in the army. that's 10% military serving personal which also does the police work on turian colonies, building, medic support and true militaristic roles. expect extreme upkeepcosts.
10) human race is at war time(geth, collectors, terrorists) and needs to contribute ships to the citadel fleets.

 

But you still aren't thinking about it with accurate ratios. The asari are much more widespread, and according to their Codex, the majority of their base military acts like a millita -- no standardized uniforms or training. Literally any asari can do it. Like the turians, minus the forced conscription. And in the Alliance: Military Doctrine Codex, I'm pretty damn sure that the Codex is as accurate as it can be about the 3% service rate, and that it automatically takes all that into account. So you trying to agrue semantics for a number that has already taken it all into account is just pointless.

Funny you say that, since half what you said doesn't follow the Codex at all.

Wrong - the numbers are the pointless and false accusation. If your baseline facts are wrong, then any conclusions based on them will be wrong too. That's a constant, regardless of if you use numbers, words, or anything else. The "facts" you base your GDP and population numbers off of are wrong, so any conclusions you make off them will be as well. The 10 points you put up prove me right in that regard. Allow me to explain:

1> Relivent how? Because at least half that population exists in the Terminus systems as non-taxpaying criminals, or private citizians that don't contribute to their respective economies, like the independiant colony of Horizion. Trillions is a moot point if you can't accurately deduce how many are actually contributing to the economy and who's a member of what species. This statment about trillions in the galaxy - this should be a starting point, not an end conlcusion
2> Wrong. The salarians are the ones with the garrsion like that, not humans. Humans keep a more generalized garrison on their worlds, unless they are not members of the Alliance like the Terminus Colonies.
3> No. Compared to the rest of the powers in the gataxy, humans are not strong. We are small fish in a big sea. The geth are much stronger then us. The Turians are much stronger then us, The Asari are much stronger then us. Hell, even the quarians, if they take all their ships together, are stronger then us numberwise (and don't even try to bring up Sovergien, because the only reason Sovergien lost was because of the Saren-Husk's psychic backlash). Face it -- we're nothing special to the rest of the galaxy.
4> You've got batarians way too high on that rung. On the scale of galactic powers and their relitive strength in the galaxy, it goes: Turian>Geth>Asari>Salarian>Human>Quarian>Elcor>Hanar>Batarian>Volus>Raloi>Korgan>Vorcha.
5> Still innacurate: Asari>Turian>Salarian>Hanar>Volus>Human>Elcor.
(Before you say anything about the hanar in either poll, take into account that they
were up for review to be placed on the Citadel Council in ME1, and that they keep powerful trade relations with the asari, and also their indentured race the drell to fall back on)
6> Again, what does that matter if you keep screwing up their population numbers and recruitment raites? It's just argueing sementics.
7> Okay, that's a massive mistake. The human population On Earth alone is 11 billion, so forgive me if I point out how improbable it is that 12.5 billion is the "maxed" population of all humans in the galaxy, when your statistic barely coveres Earth alone. Did you forget Eden Prime? Terra Nova? The dozens of colonies in Alliance space (excluding the Terminus colonies). That number really needs major review.
8>  That's about the only thing in this entire list that is true.
9> Wrong. All turians serve required tours in the military to become a turian citizian, so the rate of recruitment vs active duty rosters would be much higher then 10%. 35% - 40% is a more likely number. They didn't become an Imperialistic civilization for nothing.
10> Wrong. Humans are not at war time. The Eden Prime War was two conflicts - Eden Prime and the Citadel. And the Council actively forbade humans from going to war-time statius in order to more effectively maintain galactic peace. The geth are not considered a war-time threat by the Council, and they force the Alliance to treat them as a non-threat. The Collectors are not considered a war-time threat because they aren't attacking Alliance colonies. They're attacking independiant breakaway colonies that don't have Alliance support. Meaning that if one get's taken, the Alliance won't think twice about it. They have other issues to take care of, like playing politics with the Council. And the terrorists are not considered a war-time threat because they are an everyday occourance, like gang viloence. Dealing with them is border patrol, Not a war-time effort.
None of these things are the result of war-time actions. Thus, the Alliance isn't on war-time, and hasn't been since the Skyllian Blitz. You are seeing everything in too small a scale -- see things as they apply to a galaxy, not an Earth-based city.

This is a simple truth @erezkie -- If your starting facts are wrong, then any calculations you've made are invalid. It doesn't even matter if the calculations are right or not, because the source material you used was innacurate, making any and all conclusions you came to the resullt of false data. You're numbers could be perfect, and it wouldn't matter if the source material isn't accurate. As much as you try to play it off as such, this isn't rocket science -- if the starting point is wrong, the end result is going to be wrong as well no matter how correct a mathmatical equasion you use. It's like computing 6x 88 when the qestion is actually 8 x 88 -- your original math is right, but the work is invallid because the question is different then what you based your extrapolation off of. You don't need to be a numbers wiz to know that -- you can ask any teacher at school or any college professor.
And instead of trying to understand where you went wrong, you try to shift the question by trying to downplay the comments. *I* am the one that has been putting all the bits of the Codex together. You are the one that has repeatedly taken bits of it at a time without looking at the whole picture. The above deconstruction of your points, from your innacurate population numbers for humans, to your underestimation of the militaristic turian culture, proves as much.

In order for your claim to work, you have to actually start with accurate numbers to build off of. You can't make your own numbers up if they aren't supported by what's in the game. You are overcomplicating the issue because you simply can't comprehend that all the work you did here was irrlivent because you messed up on the starting numbers, and don't want to go through the effort of rebuilding with accurate numbers. So please, don't accuse me of being the lazy one until you've looked in a mirror.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 09 novembre 2013 - 08:13 .

[silverexile17s]

erezike wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

How the Mass Effect Universe Economy Works: 23000 CR for an electric timer that dispenses fish food, probably manufactured by Lockheed. Remember those $500 toilet seats that were identical to $9 toilet seats but were $500 because they went inside a B-52? And then there was the $200 flat head screwdriver that was identical to the $7.95 screwdriver you could buy at Sears. No, most of you probably don't. I'm guessing the DoD is still getting ripped off by private business and don't forget the graft and corruption that has nothing to do with what normal people pay for stuff. Shepard would be able to buy things cheaper from local shops with cash, and not places that sell to government militaries. You know the guy who is selling weapons out of the back of that shuttle parked over there. And this video.

I Love these comments of your Julia.

Problem is, everyone charges differently. Different companies = different prices. Different materials and so-forth, and the prices always change as time goes on. And don't forget the economic shift that things like the Battle of the Citadel would cause.
As for the fish-feeder, I'm guessing that's because of how many rare breeds of fish there are in the galaxy, and how many of them you can have at one time. Not having to expend the effort of feeding them every single day, and not having to buy new ones to replace the ones that die if you forget even once to feed them, the thing almost pays for itself.

[silverexile17s]

David7204 wrote...

Don't waste your time with 'data' that carries so many assumptions and is based on such shaky reasoning?

Wow -- a time where I agree with you. Strange times.

[Erez Kristal]

You are just grasping at straws here.
1) trillions of people in the galaxy means that when you sum up the numbers for the council races they should have a decent slice of the pie.
2) human mobile garrison is in the codex... quoting the Chinese war strategy. he who protects everything protect nothing...
3) Humans are strong. did you notice the order? I put humans on number five. compared to all of the races in the galaxy. dozens in number. humans are strong.
4) that's is your interpretation. quarrians are  using one old batarian dreadnought . a ship the batarian dismissed in favor of a new one. ballack line. could stand for the council picking humanity side in favor of the batarians. making a war a bad idea. using terrorist to do their dirty work doesn't mean the batarians are weak.
5) I left the hanar and volus out. since there is no data regarding their rank in the economy. human economy is clearly stated to be weaker than the elcor. hanar aren't known to trade much with other species.
6) it matters for the gdp. and you have to understand there is a different between volunteer rate and active people serving in the military. a big difference.
7) if you think there are more than 12.5 billion please let me know where they are. instead of jumping on your favorite. big mistake wagon..
9) the turians serve in the military between ages 15-30. turians live as much as humans on average, 150. 15 out of 150 is 10% and doesn't even come near to 35 or 40%. I hope you understand how 35% would cripple the turian economy. the only reason they seem to be able to support their 10% is their client races and the fact their military also is their police task force, their firemen department, medics and goverment construction.(from the codex).

10) if you search the codex. you will see the geth war.
there are also the colonies abductions, terrorists attacks. countries which have just recovered from war still have their expenditure high for a short while after the war. since the risk of geth is real enough with alliance - geth incrusions still going on around the galaxy. it make a lot of sense for the alliance to keep wartime expenditure.
If you don't consider the geth war. a war then I don't know what is.


So stop the pretentious dodging and attempts to paint  true facts as wrong. if you can put up some numbers for comparison then fine. if not then I think you are just here to argue and waste my time.
Do the work then we will continue. 

Modifié par erezike, 09 novembre 2013 - 12:35 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

silverexile17s wrote...

erezike wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

How the Mass Effect Universe Economy Works: 23000 CR for an electric timer that dispenses fish food, probably manufactured by Lockheed. Remember those $500 toilet seats that were identical to $9 toilet seats but were $500 because they went inside a B-52? And then there was the $200 flat head screwdriver that was identical to the $7.95 screwdriver you could buy at Sears. No, most of you probably don't. I'm guessing the DoD is still getting ripped off by private business and don't forget the graft and corruption that has nothing to do with what normal people pay for stuff. Shepard would be able to buy things cheaper from local shops with cash, and not places that sell to government militaries. You know the guy who is selling weapons out of the back of that shuttle parked over there. And this video.

I Love these comments of your Julia.

Problem is, everyone charges differently. Different companies = different prices. Different materials and so-forth, and the prices always change as time goes on. And don't forget the economic shift that things like the Battle of the Citadel would cause.
As for the fish-feeder, I'm guessing that's because of how many rare breeds of fish there are in the galaxy, and how many of them you can have at one time. Not having to expend the effort of feeding them every single day, and not having to buy new ones to replace the ones that die if you forget even once to feed them, the thing almost pays for itself.

:bandit: 

As for armor and guns, like I said, Shepard would be better off buying direct from the guy who just stole the shipment selling out of the back of the shuttle down at the end of the dock. 50% off.

The other thing is that they're not allowing us to make proper deals. Now a proper deal would be more like this.... At the start of the war fill out all the requisitions you can and have Cortez load up on all the booze, cigarettes; make a side trip to Illium and snag a s*** load of red sand; and other illicit drugs and stuff that we can. All of it on Hackett's budget. Fill up the cargo bays. Why? Because that stuff is going to be getting scarce as the war drags on and is going to be worth more than credits. Besides, by the time those requisitions clear accounting no one is going to care anyway. So you go to these arms dealers and take them out back, and you tell them, "look, you got this sweet set of armor, how about you knock 50% off the price and I throw in some sand. There's none around here and the demand is high. You can flip the sand for twice that easy and make a huge profit, and more than enough to pay C-sec to look the other way."

"But the guy in my area is a hard ass."

"Don't worry. I'll tell Bailey you want tickets to the 'Charity Ball', okay?" :innocent:  

And when you're on shore leave Cortez and company can sell the drugs in Purgatory, of course you'll have to give a cut to Aria.

The Fish --- It's an electric timer that dumps fish food in the tank. You fill the damned thing up with fish food about once a month. Every day at the same time it dispenses the proper amount of food to the fish. You can buy these things on Amazon. They're not that expensive, $26.98, FFS. I can go up there and press the damned button an the fish tank myself for free. It's not like these things are high tech. STFU. 

[David7204]

Are these serious arguments, Julia?

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

David7204 wrote...

Are these serious arguments, Julia?

:face palm:

The fish one is, though.

[Arcian]

David7204 wrote...

Are these serious arguments, Julia?

Have you never watched Breaking Bad?

[David7204]

I'll tell you the same thing I told people on the Dragon Age forum. Having a 'realistic' economy in games is a very silly idea. The reason why is simple. Games tend to have lost cost items, such as weapons, food, small trinkets, and high cost items, such as property and upgrades. However, unlike the real world, the player must be able to accumulate enough wealth to acquire the expensive items in a reasonable amount of time. You can't spend 30 years in the game to make enough money to buy a house. The consequence of that is that smaller items basically become free. And since it's the smaller items that tend to have a direct effect in gameplay, such as, as I said, weapons, that's not very satisfying.

Thus we see very expensive fish feeders and arcade games that cost 500 credits to play. When the player earns 10,000 credits for a 60 second match, charging them realistic prices for such items would be pointless and unsatisfying.

Modifié par David7204, 09 novembre 2013 - 02:05 .

[DeinonSlayer]

David7204 wrote...

I'll tell you the same thing I told people on the Dragon Age forum. Having a 'realistic' economy in games is a very silly idea. The reason why is simple. Games tend to have lost cost items, such as weapons, food, small trinkets, and high cost items, such as property and upgrades. However, unlike the real world, the player must be able to accumulate enough wealth to acquire the expensive items in a reasonable amount of time. You can't spend 30 years in the game to make enough money to buy a house. The consequence of that is that smaller items basically become free. And since it's the smaller items that tend to have a direct effect in gameplay, such as, as I said, weapons, that's not very satisfying.

Thus we see very expensive fish feeders and arcade games that cost 500 credits to play. When the player earns 10,000 credits for a 60 second match, charging them realistic prices for such items would be pointless and unsatisfying.

I've never played EVE Online, but I read about it on Cracked. 

Sounds like over half of the game is an exercise in accounting. And people do this for fun.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 09 novembre 2013 - 02:09 .

[Arcian]

Even accountants deserve to have a little fun once in a while.

[Obadiah]

The answer to the silly prices for fish feeders, etc, is to not sell them because its price stupid. It's the future, fish feeders ought to be a default feature of big fish tanks. Sell something at that price that's useful and makes sense, like the full armor sets.

The game economy doesn't have to be full simulation "realistic" to make sense.

[David7204]

Yes, actually, it does.

I would suggest we all simply regard the prices seen as non-canonical.

Modifié par David7204, 09 novembre 2013 - 02:20 .

[silverexile17s]

erezike wrote...

You are just grasping at straws here.
1) trillions of people in the galaxy means that when you sum up the numbers for the council races they should have a decent slice of the pie.
2) human mobile garrison is in the codex... quoting the Chinese war strategy. he who protects everything protect nothing...
3) Humans are strong. did you notice the order? I put humans on number five. compared to all of the races in the galaxy. dozens in number. humans are strong.
4) that's is your interpretation. quarrians are  using one old batarian dreadnought . a ship the batarian dismissed in favor of a new one. ballack line. could stand for the council picking humanity side in favor of the batarians. making a war a bad idea. using terrorist to do their dirty work doesn't mean the batarians are weak.
5) I left the hanar and volus out. since there is no data regarding their rank in the economy. human economy is clearly stated to be weaker than the elcor. hanar aren't known to trade much with other species.
6) it matters for the gdp. and you have to understand there is a different between volunteer rate and active people serving in the military. a big difference.
7) if you think there are more than 12.5 billion please let me know where they are. instead of jumping on your favorite. big mistake wagon..
9) the turians serve in the military between ages 15-30. turians live as much as humans on average, 150. 15 out of 150 is 10% and doesn't even come near to 35 or 40%. I hope you understand how 35% would cripple the turian economy. the only reason they seem to be able to support their 10% is their client races and the fact their military also is their police task force, their firemen department, medics and goverment construction.(from the codex).

10) if you search the codex. you will see the geth war.
there are also the colonies abductions, terrorists attacks. countries which have just recovered from war still have their expenditure high for a short while after the war. since the risk of geth is real enough with alliance - geth incrusions still going on around the galaxy. it make a lot of sense for the alliance to keep wartime expenditure.
If you don't consider the geth war. a war then I don't know what is.


So stop the pretentious dodging and attempts to paint  true facts as wrong. if you can put up some numbers for comparison then fine. if not then I think you are just here to argue and waste my time.
Do the work then we will continue. 

You're describing yourself @erezkie. You still refuse to acknowledge that your original starting facts were wrong. No amount of calculations are going to matter if your starting point wasn't even accurate to begin with -- that's the long and short of it.

1) Trillions describes the entire galaxy -- as stated by Shepard. Most races number in the billions apiece -- none of them come close to being a trillion on their own. Trillions describes the gestalt count of the entire galaxy, from human to turian to quarian to krogan. The Council alone can make at least one trillion, while the Non-Council races make up at least another trillion, and the terminus can make another trillion. If you think the Council races comprise the majority if the galaxy, you need to re-work your numbers.

2) But they aren't as mobile as the salarians - according to their Codex. They followed the same doctrine, and they've been at this alot longer then we have. And that hardly describes how the humans were behaving in the Reaper War, now does it? Hackett was coordinating a massive defese of all avalible theaters of war. Almost the exact counter to what you claim. The Alliance became more sedentary after the Skyllian Blitz passed, and then spend most of their time trying to re-build from the Battle of the Citadel.

3) Humans aren't strong. Didn't you notice the corrected order? Anderson says it plain after your first meeting with the Council about Saren -- the Alliance is one of the weaker powers in the galaxy. Hell, the hanar were up for consideration for Council Member Status before we were. Think about that. The hanar were more powerful and influential then us in 2185 (Mass Effect 1). That makes your "humans are strong" assumption look rather false. You put them at number 5, but that's not how they are in the game. And what's in the game tends to be more valid then what you claim. Face it - humans are nothing special. We're cheap compared to the rest of the Council Races, the majority of which are more established and more widespread then us.

4) Wrong. That's the game's interpertation. Based on statements from members of their own species and comments from politicians like Din Korlak. You've got this habit of discounting everything and anything people say that doesn't fit your preconception, even when they have proof from the game that validates their claims. Also, IDK if you realize this, but the three liveships count as dreadnought-class due to their massive size. Also, the fact that the batarians lost a dreadnought to the homeless, resource-starved quarians doens't prove to you that the batarians are falling apart? If they can't keep their most powerful ships away from the galaxy's only homeless race, wouldn't that clinch the fact that they're all but a shell of a government now? And the Council didn't pick humans over the batarians. Perhaps you missed the fact that in the Codex, not once in the entire Skyllian Blitz did the Council offer any aid to the Alliance. The Alliance was alone in the Blitz, just like the batarians were -- and the batarians were so weak that they had to conscript mercenaries to fight for them. And when the batarian colony of Torfan was obliterated, they pulled back and were never seen in Council space again. And Balak himself spicifically states that the entire reason the batarians launched the Skyllian Blitz was becase they were too weak to fight the Alliance. When the fanatic admits that it's true, what makes you think you can play it off as being false?


5) Wrong. The hanar were up for consideration to be a Council Member Race during the event of ME1. Listen in on a conversation between a turain and salarian diplomat in the Council Chambers, and you learn that the Hanar were up for review to join the Council. That basically states that they were more stable then us. And that the elcor are next in line after them. You also learn from those two that making humans part of the Council is a political ploy, and not based on our actions or military/economic strength. We're being used as a patsy by the Council for political gain. And the Volus created the United Banking Act -- they are also a client race of the Turian Hierarchy. They are one of the most wealthy races in the galaxy, and they offset their lack of a focused military by letting themselves be absorbed into the Turian Hierarchy, trading mercentile & fiscal expertiese for turian protection. This puts the volus over us, right under the elcor and hanar. We'd be last in terms of getting on the Council, if not for the fact that making us members would be good politics (turian relations with a fellow expansionoist race, taming human agressiveness, getting the credit for humans stopping Saren and the Geth, ect). It's nothing to do with us being strong or wealthy -- it's all politics. It's always been politics.

6) Again, no it doesn't. Not when you constantly misinterpert key facts about the economic state and population count vs military recruitment. You need to get such numbers accurate before you start toting them off as being important. How long they've been around doesn't matter -- it's inconsiquential to their numbers. The quarians have been around just as long and yet they have one of the lowest population numbers out there of 17 million. And it's even worse for the drell, who barely number past 300,000 galaxy-wide. Age means nothing in this -- races can die in the blink of an eye, regardless of how long they've been around or how powerful they used to be.

7) Fine. Here's a list.
Codex information on human population:
Earth - 11.4 Billion
Earth Orbit Space Stations - 250,000
Akuze - Unknown. At least one spaceport-capable city.
Amaterasu - Human Colony where Ashley Williams hails from.
Anhur - 208,587,000
(50% batarian - estimated 104,293,500 humans at max)
Arvuna - 948,700
Bekenstien - 5,425,000
Benning - 2.25 million
Chasca - at least 300 (starting colony, receantly established)
Cuervo - Unknown.
Cyrene - Unkwnon. One of the six known human colonies abducted by the Collectors.
Demeter - Garden world. Estimated several thousand people
Dobrovolski - Mining colony, several thousand.
Drasta - New colony, few settlers.
Eden Prime - 3.7 Million in ME1, 4.2 Million in ME3.
Elysium - 8.3 Million.
Euntanta - 230
Fargone - Largest colony moon of Jonus. Several thousand colonists.
Fehl Prime - Agriculture world. Over 10,000 colonists estimated. Second of six known wolds lost to the Collectors.
Feros - estimated 550 colonists (if colony was saved in ME1)
Ferris Fields - Estimated tens of  thousands. Third of ix known worlds lost to the Collectors.
Franklin - estimated several hundred. Garrison outpost for planet of Watson.
Freedom's Progress - estimated several thousand. Fourth of six known worlds lost to the Collectors.
Gei Hinnom - 11,503
Gilead - Mining colony, 25 residents.
Horizon - 654,930 in ME2, 800,000 - 1.5 million in ME3. Fifth of six known worlds lost to the Collectors.
Israfil - 1,006
Intai'sei - 150,000
Joab - 21.5 million
Jupiter - 9,100 totaled (all colonies on moons)
Luna (Earth's Moon) - 4.1 Million
Mars - 3.4 Million
Mercury - 340
Mindoir - Unknown. Estimated tens of thousands.
Naxell - 6,700
Neptune - 70
New Canton - Unknwon, estimated several Thousand. Sixth of six known worlds lost to the Collectors.
Silva - Unknown. Estimated tens of thousands. Primary fuel source of the Arcturus system.
Olor - Unknown. Estimated several thousand.
Ontarom - Several hundred. Major Alliance communication hub.
Pluto - 9,300 (gateway stations)
Proteus - 12,470
Sanctum - 257,300
Sathur - Garden colony world. Estimated several thousand.
Satrun - 117,000 (orbital station and Titan Moon colony)
Shanxi - estimated tens of thousands.
Sinmara - 135
Terra Nova - 4.4 million
Therum - 34,000
Tiptree - unknown. Homeworld of "Joker.' estimated several thousand.
Trident - 6,800,000
Tyr - 47,000
Uqbar - unknown, estimated several thoudand
Uranus - 371,000
Venus - 800
Watson - unknwon. Estimated tens of thousands.
Yandoa - Unknown. Estimated several thousand.
Zion - 1061
Unnamed seventh colony abducted by Collectors. Population unknown, estimated several thousand.
And these are just the known worlds in the game. Don't even get me started on the many other colonies likely make up the core of Alliance space.
I give you this list in the hopes that you'll get accurate data from it, and drop the pretentious "holier then thou" attitude. Seriously, you're making comments like "big mistake wagon" when there is this entire list of worlds out there, wheras you've only touhced on Earth? "Wow" doesn't even cover that.

9) Turians are a military race. Their government is their military. All jobs in the Hierarchy are military jobs. From the Merchant Marrines to the Repair Service Unit, 90% of jobs and positions in turian culture are military based. That's the first thing you learn when Reading "Codex: Secondary Entries: Council Races. Turians: Culture." Somehow, I don't think you took that fact into acount. The only turians that aren't actively working in one branch of the military or another are the private citizens. I hope you understand that the entire turian government is based off their military.
"The turian military is the center of their society. It is not just an
armed force; it is the all-encompassing public works organization. The
military police are also the civic police. The fire brigades serve the
civilian population as well as military facilities. The corps of
engineers builds and maintains spaceports, schools, water purification
plants, and power stations. The merchant marine ensures that all worlds
get needed resources."
The bolded transcript comes directly from the Codex. Exact entry - Secondary Entries: Council Races: Turian: Culture. Take the underlined part of it under consideration, and you'll quickly realize that 35% of the population is the minimun estimate of how many turians serve in the Hierarchy's vast and branching military. So, you may want to reconsider your assumptions on the turians -- and you said *I* was the one making assumptions off fragments of the lore?

10) If you search the Codex, you'll see it consisted of two battles. Eden Prime, and the Citadel. It was called a war at the end only because it directly involved the entire Citadel Government in a massive conflict. Now that is the scale that it's declared a "war." Anything else is either border patrol, or minor skirmishes to them, and not an actualized full-blown war. And after the Council decided to declare open season on the geth too, their numbers dropped sharply after the battle of the Citadel -- the Alliance were no longer the only ones doing something. Everyone was in on it now. Anderson puts it best -- "they're not the boogymen they used to be." And the geth incursions are taking place in the Terminus -- where the Alliance doesn't exst. The war consisted of two battles - Eden Prime and the Citadel. Everything else was border patrol and clean-up by galactic standards.
If you consider the geth fights a war, you should really study up and read about the Krogan Rebellions and the Rachni Wars. Those were real wars. This -- no.

So, please, take your own advice. The only one being pretentious has always been you. You have been the one painting the true facts as wrong, and continue to do so even when the Codex tells you otherwise -- primary cases in point being human population numbers, and the size of the turian armed forces. If you can get accurate facts and base valid conclusions off them, then you can come and talk. You can't even get past the fact that you refuse to acknowledge the true facts as being facts, and can't accept that you used incorrect information in your estimations. The only one wasting time is you because you can't comprehend the simple fact that if the base information is flawed, then any assumptions drawn from them will also be wrong -- you don't need to go into numbers to do that -- it's a baseline truth of everything from math to sicence. Invalid starting data = invalid conclusions. End of story.
So, in conclusion, do your own work first before you preach to others about it. THEN, we can continue.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 09 novembre 2013 - 08:14 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Obadiah wrote...

The answer to the silly prices for fish feeders, etc, is to not sell them because its price stupid. It's the future, fish feeders ought to be a default feature of big fish tanks. Sell something at that price that's useful and makes sense, like the full armor sets.

The game economy doesn't have to be full simulation "realistic" to make sense.

In 2185, Installing a fish tank without an automatic fish feeder is like installing a toilet without a seat FFS. 23000 CR? Those fish should s*** gold for that much.

Another thing, why didn't they give Shepard a damned private stock of booze or smokes? Why couldn't Shepard enjoy a glass of bourbon and a cigarette in her cabin? or even have a cigarette when she wanted? Why do only Batarians get to smoke? ME was so PC except for the racist jokes.

[David7204]

Did you read what I wrote, Julia?

[KaiserShep]

Obadiah wrote...

The answer to the silly prices for fish feeders, etc, is to not sell them because its price stupid. It's the future, fish feeders ought to be a default feature of big fish tanks. Sell something at that price that's useful and makes sense, like the full armor sets.

The game economy doesn't have to be full simulation "realistic" to make sense.

Have you ever seen the prices for high end aquarium equipment? lol

I paid $100 for a canister filter and I had to do all the feeding managing ph, plant care etc. myself, and it's just simple little earth fish. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 09 novembre 2013 - 02:35 .