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[BioWareM0d13]

The Hanar most likely have a fairly large space fleet. I don't what that would amount to in terms of percentages of GDP, but there was some speculation in the series that the Hanar might be next in line for a Council seat. Since one of the requirements for appointment to the Citadel Council is a demonstrated ability to defend Council space, the Hanar fleet must be fairly considerable. If the Hanar fielded a small fleet, no one should be speculating about their potential for gaining a Council seat.

[Arcian]

alleyd wrote...

 Cerberus were most definitely overpowered, especially in ME3 where they made convenient human shaped mooks. In Me2 EDI mentions that they are grouped in small cells with only around 150 members or so, yet they can bring Shep back from the dead, develop an advanced AI and build one of the most advanced ships is the galaxy. So they had massive support from somewhere.

A lot of people got this wrong - Cerberus was mentioned to have 150 operatives - top-level personnel like Miranda.

[BioWareM0d13]

Arcian wrote...

alleyd wrote...

 Cerberus were most definitely overpowered, especially in ME3 where they made convenient human shaped mooks. In Me2 EDI mentions that they are grouped in small cells with only around 150 members or so, yet they can bring Shep back from the dead, develop an advanced AI and build one of the most advanced ships is the galaxy. So they had massive support from somewhere.

A lot of people got this wrong - Cerberus was mentioned to have 150 operatives - top-level personnel like Miranda.

Even so in the books they are depicted as a relatively small organization of isolated cells rather than an army. They have more in common with modern terrorist organizations in terms of their hierarchy and structure than they do conventional militaries. Additionally, in Mass Effect: Retribution Anderson manages to get much of the organization rolled up with assistance from the Turians, and nearly captures the Illusive Man. The organization is depicted as being very much on the ropes at the close of that book, only to return in ME3 with an army and a fleet.

Storywise Cerberus suffered from having had multiple authors who apparently didn't pay much attention to what had been written previously. Retribution was pretty much hand-waved in order to make Cerberus 40% of the enemies you face in ME3.

[silverexile17s]

Han Shot First wrote...

Arcian wrote...

alleyd wrote...

 Cerberus were most definitely overpowered, especially in ME3 where they made convenient human shaped mooks. In Me2 EDI mentions that they are grouped in small cells with only around 150 members or so, yet they can bring Shep back from the dead, develop an advanced AI and build one of the most advanced ships is the galaxy. So they had massive support from somewhere.

A lot of people got this wrong - Cerberus was mentioned to have 150 operatives - top-level personnel like Miranda.

Even so in the books they are depicted as a relatively small organization of isolated cells rather than an army. They have more in common with modern terrorist organizations in terms of their hierarchy and structure than they do conventional militaries. Additionally, in Mass Effect: Retribution Anderson manages to get much of the organization rolled up with assistance from the Turians, and nearly captures the Illusive Man. The organization is depicted as being very much on the ropes at the close of that book, only to return in ME3 with an army and a fleet.

Storywise Cerberus suffered from having had multiple authors who apparently didn't pay much attention to what had been written previously. Retribution was pretty much hand-waved in order to make Cerberus 40% of the enemies you face in ME3.

Actually, that's not true - Anderson helped role up one single cell. Not the majority of Cerberus -- they were centered on Omega at the time, to use as a base to begin their exploration of the now-open Omega 4 Relay.

[Arcian]

Han Shot First wrote...

Arcian wrote...

alleyd wrote...

 Cerberus were most definitely overpowered, especially in ME3 where they made convenient human shaped mooks. In Me2 EDI mentions that they are grouped in small cells with only around 150 members or so, yet they can bring Shep back from the dead, develop an advanced AI and build one of the most advanced ships is the galaxy. So they had massive support from somewhere.

A lot of people got this wrong - Cerberus was mentioned to have 150 operatives - top-level personnel like Miranda.

Even so in the books they are depicted as a relatively small organization of isolated cells rather than an army. They have more in common with modern terrorist organizations in terms of their hierarchy and structure than they do conventional militaries. Additionally, in Mass Effect: Retribution Anderson manages to get much of the organization rolled up with assistance from the Turians, and nearly captures the Illusive Man. The organization is depicted as being very much on the ropes at the close of that book, only to return in ME3 with an army and a fleet.

Storywise Cerberus suffered from having had multiple authors who apparently didn't pay much attention to what had been written previously. Retribution was pretty much hand-waved in order to make Cerberus 40% of the enemies you face in ME3.

I'm not arguing against the fact that their capabilities and resources were blown wildly out of proportion in ME3, but to say the entire organization consisted of just 150 guys is just not the reality.

[BioWareM0d13]

silverexile17s wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Arcian wrote...

alleyd wrote...

 Cerberus were most definitely overpowered, especially in ME3 where they made convenient human shaped mooks. In Me2 EDI mentions that they are grouped in small cells with only around 150 members or so, yet they can bring Shep back from the dead, develop an advanced AI and build one of the most advanced ships is the galaxy. So they had massive support from somewhere.

A lot of people got this wrong - Cerberus was mentioned to have 150 operatives - top-level personnel like Miranda.

Even so in the books they are depicted as a relatively small organization of isolated cells rather than an army. They have more in common with modern terrorist organizations in terms of their hierarchy and structure than they do conventional militaries. Additionally, in Mass Effect: Retribution Anderson manages to get much of the organization rolled up with assistance from the Turians, and nearly captures the Illusive Man. The organization is depicted as being very much on the ropes at the close of that book, only to return in ME3 with an army and a fleet.

Storywise Cerberus suffered from having had multiple authors who apparently didn't pay much attention to what had been written previously. Retribution was pretty much hand-waved in order to make Cerberus 40% of the enemies you face in ME3.

Actually, that's not true - Anderson helped role up one single cell. Not the majority of Cerberus -- they were centered on Omega at the time, to use as a base to begin their exploration of the now-open Omega 4 Relay.

While Anderson personally takes down a single cell, the book makes it clear that the Turians are rolling up the organization galaxy wide.

[BioWareM0d13]

Arcian wrote...

I'm not arguing against the fact that their capabilities and resources were blown wildly out of proportion in ME3, but to say the entire organization consisted of just 150 guys is just not the reality.

I agree that 150 sounds way too small.

My guess would be a few thousand active members, with more sympathizers or fellow travelers.

[shodiswe]

Han Shot First wrote...

Arcian wrote...

I'm not arguing against the fact that their capabilities and resources were blown wildly out of proportion in ME3, but to say the entire organization consisted of just 150 guys is just not the reality.

I agree that 150 sounds way too small.

My guess would be a few thousand active members, with more sympathizers or fellow travelers.

A lot of people also worked for Cerberus owned bussineses and industries, those people most likely didn't know who they were working for. Which could put the amount of unknowing employees in the millions.

Eventualy Cerberus started indoctrinating settlers, colonists and farmers with reconfigured reapertech to create cheap shocktroops.

[BioWareM0d13]

shodiswe wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Arcian wrote...

I'm not arguing against the fact that their capabilities and resources were blown wildly out of proportion in ME3, but to say the entire organization consisted of just 150 guys is just not the reality.

I agree that 150 sounds way too small.

My guess would be a few thousand active members, with more sympathizers or fellow travelers.

A lot of people also worked for Cerberus owned bussineses and industries, those people most likely didn't know who they were working for. Which could put the amount of unknowing employees in the millions.

Eventualy Cerberus started indoctrinating settlers, colonists and farmers with reconfigured reapertech to create cheap shocktroops.

The indoctrination angle might have explained why Cerberus had so many troops, but it fails to explain how Cerberus obtained a space fleet, how it was managing to feed, supply and fuel its army, or how it managed to mass produce weapons and armor for that army. Cerberus isn't a government, so its role in Mass Effect 3 is a little nonsensical.

[silverexile17s]

Han Shot First wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Arcian wrote...

alleyd wrote...

 Cerberus were most definitely overpowered, especially in ME3 where they made convenient human shaped mooks. In Me2 EDI mentions that they are grouped in small cells with only around 150 members or so, yet they can bring Shep back from the dead, develop an advanced AI and build one of the most advanced ships is the galaxy. So they had massive support from somewhere.

A lot of people got this wrong - Cerberus was mentioned to have 150 operatives - top-level personnel like Miranda.

Even so in the books they are depicted as a relatively small organization of isolated cells rather than an army. They have more in common with modern terrorist organizations in terms of their hierarchy and structure than they do conventional militaries. Additionally, in Mass Effect: Retribution Anderson manages to get much of the organization rolled up with assistance from the Turians, and nearly captures the Illusive Man. The organization is depicted as being very much on the ropes at the close of that book, only to return in ME3 with an army and a fleet.

Storywise Cerberus suffered from having had multiple authors who apparently didn't pay much attention to what had been written previously. Retribution was pretty much hand-waved in order to make Cerberus 40% of the enemies you face in ME3.

Actually, that's not true - Anderson helped role up one single cell. Not the majority of Cerberus -- they were centered on Omega at the time, to use as a base to begin their exploration of the now-open Omega 4 Relay.

While Anderson personally takes down a single cell, the book makes it clear that the Turians are rolling up the organization galaxy wide.

Again, not ture at all -- most of the Orginization is either beyond the Omega-4 relay, or on Omega itself. The books makes it clear that the turians are tracking the remaining cells, but "rolling up" is a gross overestimation.

[silverexile17s]

Han Shot First wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Arcian wrote...

I'm not arguing against the fact that their capabilities and resources were blown wildly out of proportion in ME3, but to say the entire organization consisted of just 150 guys is just not the reality.

I agree that 150 sounds way too small.

My guess would be a few thousand active members, with more sympathizers or fellow travelers.

A lot of people also worked for Cerberus owned bussineses and industries, those people most likely didn't know who they were working for. Which could put the amount of unknowing employees in the millions.

Eventualy Cerberus started indoctrinating settlers, colonists and farmers with reconfigured reapertech to create cheap shocktroops.

The indoctrination angle might have explained why Cerberus had so many troops, but it fails to explain how Cerberus obtained a space fleet, how it was managing to feed, supply and fuel its army, or how it managed to mass produce weapons and armor for that army. Cerberus isn't a government, so its role in Mass Effect 3 is a little nonsensical.

You assume that, with Husk-Implants, the Cerberus troopers would need to eat or sleep. In all likelyhood, they don't anymore. Mass fabrication explains the armor and the weapons, since the weapons are mostly re-paints of galaxy-standard equipment like the Mattock. And you aren't taking into account that this fleet might have existed before ME3 -- this is the result of all Cerberus condolenced into a single force. Like I said, the turians may have been tracking and hunting the other cells, but "rolling up" is a massive overestimation of their success ratio.
And to clarify, Cerberus as we see it in ME3 isn't a strong as any of the other government forces -- they had to rely on hit-and-run blindside attacks. They're more like the Collectors now -- powerful, but outnumbered by everyone else.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

alleyd wrote...

 EDI's exact quote in ME2 when asked about the structure of Cerberus
" Currently Cerberus consists of approximately 150 agents and operatives organised into Three Cells"
I admit the error in wording, I said members in the post. Speculation as to total numbers is up to the individual. To go from there to the force in ME3 from the suicide mission in ME2 is a bit hard for me to accept as overpowering. 

You blow up the base, and Cerberus can still salvage and rebuild it, develop and grow Adjutants, conquering Omega, building supprt fleets , Horizon and all sorts of other stuff all in a matter of months.

Thank you. From that to a military force rivaling the Turians for one purpose: VIDEO GAME LOGIC. We need mooks to kill and plenty of them. It would have been boring just to shoot at reaper mooks the entire game, so they gave us Cerberus mooks to kill, too. And we had some Geth mooks to kill as well.

That was the entire reason for making Cerberus into such a huge galactic power. No other stretch of the imagination is necessary. 

You blow up the base. You can only get through the Omega 4 relay with a Reaper IFF, yet Cerberus somehow manages to get through it just fine. Why is that? Is it because Cerberus has a Reaper IFF? No. Is it because they had unlimited resources to send in ships and see which ones weren't destroyed going through? No.

It is because the Reaper IFF thing was retconned so that it was no longer needed to traverse the relay, OR that the only thing necessary to traverse the relay was the code contained inside the IFF which conveniently was transmitted to The Illusive Man by his team on the derelict reaper before they all became husks. Thus Shepard was The Illusive Man's stooge the entire time. Shepard's real job was to destroy the derelict reaper.

All this stuff in a few months, Cerberus grows from a third rate terrorist organization to a major military power for video game logic.

Do yourself a favor. Do not try and figure out this stuff. If you just accept that this is video game logic, you will not go splat.

[silverexile17s]

alleyd wrote...

 EDI's exact quote in ME2 when asked about the structure of Cerberus
" Currently Cerberus consists of approximately 150 agents and operatives organised into Three Cells"
I admit the error in wording, I said members in the post. Speculation as to total numbers is up to the individual. To go from there to the force in ME3 from the suicide mission in ME2 is a bit hard for me to accept as overpowering. 

You blow up the base, and Cerberus can still salvage and rebuild it, develop and grow Adjutants, conquering Omega, building supprt fleets , Horizon and all sorts of other stuff all in a matter of months.

Actually, there's a contridicion in EDI's info about that -- When you ask about Cerberus' command structure, she says that TIM maintains a dozen cells, or "Projects," at any one time. When you ask about members, she says "Three cells," but when you ask about command structure, she says there is roughly a dozen cells. (even back then, consistancy in the ME storyline was taking a downturn).
And it's been speculated that 150 operatives referres to the senior staff, and not the many recruits and members that formed the ground forces. 150 elite agents that make up the central command structure of Cerberus - the 150 key officers, like Jacob Taylor, Miranda Lawson, and Kai Leng, which stand above the unnamed soldiers that make up the Cerberus fighting forces.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 12 novembre 2013 - 12:58 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

And this shows that some of the Bioware writers didn't know what the other Bioware writers were writing. That's all that shows.

Just accept video game logic. Accept that the plot was bad straight from the beginning. It's the Wile E. Coyote theory. ACME Story Writing Kit.

[silverexile17s]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

And this shows that some of the Bioware writers didn't know what the other Bioware writers were writing. That's all that shows.

Just accept video game logic. Accept that the plot was bad straight from the beginning. It's the Wile E. Coyote theory. ACME Story Writing Kit.

Well, to be fair, I think alot of people learned that when ME3 came out. I doubt all the writers were on the same page.
Still, it's a little mind-boggling to me that a set of lines for the same character, in the same conversation, could contridict each-other like that and not one person on the writing team or quality check would notice.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 12 novembre 2013 - 07:35 .

[silverexile17s]

alleyd wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

And this shows that some of the Bioware writers didn't know what the other Bioware writers were writing. That's all that shows.

Just accept video game logic. Accept that the plot was bad straight from the beginning. It's the Wile E. Coyote theory. ACME Story Writing Kit.

Well, to be fair, I think alot of people learned that when ME3 came out. I doubt all the writers were on the same page.
Still, it's a little mind-boggling to me that a set of lines for the same character, in the same conversation, could contridict each-other like that and not one person on the writing team or quality check would notice.

Yes SilverExile we agree on that point, the contradictions exist in the lore to a degree that is hard to reconcile. Maybe the intention was to be vague and let fans speculate on what it all means? Maybe it was bad fact checking an consistancy or the changes in writing staff and company strategies, but at base level Mass Effect seems very flawed at times. The more you analyse it, the more you notice these things.

I actually have a document that lists how the Codex was changed during the history of the franchise and a selection of contradictions that were pointed out in BSN and my my own game play feelings. I did a large analysis as tools for the groups and for my own use. I have 3 seperate game lore databases, one compiled from the complete codex of each game and all DLC's A WIKI analysis table of the CDN marketing teaser, another codex that is built up from the novels and comics and other media. Also complete scripts for the game's character interactions, LI's, etc in the 3 games and DLC. All in all, I think I catalogued every single scrap of lore, text and dialogue in game.

Not saying I'm an authority on game lore or proving I have more understanding of MEU than any other, I only  did that analysis to build a tool to help me write an alternative ME paper game/fanfic. The fanfic will never fly, but the tools could be used to help understand or reimagine the MEU, also as support documentation for any fan wanting to do an alternative telling of the lore.  I shared some of this with the 2 group leaders to help them build their alternative MEU's, but the full analysis I hold in reserve until the groups needed them.

I want to get back to the O/P,s points on the economy and population. My comments on Cerberus were meant as a way of highlighting the existence of powerful moneyed interests in the human community. One thing that was sadly missed was to show how hugely wealthy some people are. We never meet the "money" and there is a space for it in an alterantive ME. This thread seems trying to put one type of figure or stat to suggest the total wealth in the galaxy. The alternative could be to introduce different kinds of figures, actual characters that control the purse strings and keep the wheels turning. Instead of putting a number to the money, give it some faces.

Who would be The PLAYERS in the galactic economy of MEU? Would it be fun to meet the people who bankroll Cerberus, sponsor the Council's political careers, employ lobbyists and generally make the systems work?

Well, from what I can tell, the major players in the Galactic Economy would be the asari, who seem to be the cultrual lords of trade for the galaxy,  the volus, who micromanage everybodie's bank accounts, and the turians, who supply most of the high-grade weapons and armaments to the galaxy at large. Humans fit a niece between these three, not really accelling in any one area. The "middleman" as it were.

[BioWareM0d13]

Again, not ture at all -- most of the Orginization is either beyond the Omega-4 relay, or on Omega itself. The books makes it clear that the turians are tracking the remaining cells, but "rolling up" is a gross overestimation.

 

The Turians weren't just 'tracking' Cerberus cells, they were killing and arresting them. They also came very close to capturing TIM himself. 

[AlanC9]

It is because the Reaper IFF thing was retconned[/b] so that it was no longer needed to traverse the relay, OR that the only thing necessary to traverse the relay was the code contained inside the IFF which conveniently was transmitted to The Illusive Man by his team on the derelict reaper before they all became husks. .

Or because the Normandy crew transmitted data to TIM that allowed him to reverse-engineer the device at some later date. Monitoring devices, remember?

[AlanC9]

While Anderson personally takes down a single cell, the book makes it clear that the Turians are rolling up the organization galaxy wide.

Haven't read it myself. Is that made clear from Cerberus' own perspective, or only from the turians'? I'm thinking of Second Foundation here, where Asimiov pulls something similar.

[AlanC9]

Hey, why was this ridiculous thread necro'd?