37 réponses à ce sujet

[cap and gown]

So, I have decided to try out a Vanguard. Not really my style. It really goes against the grain of the way I like to fight, and it doesn't mesh well with just how poor I am with the controller. Indeed, I wonder if this class is really meant for use by PC players.

So I am Mars right now, level 31. I have biotic charge specced for: radius, power synergy, and barrier. For Nova I have radius and half blast. I have Reeve as my bonus power specced for radius and damage reduction. Assault mastery is at level 4 damage, and Fitness is rank 2. (Incendiary ammo rank starts at rank 1) I have reduced the difficulty to Normal. My only weapon is the N7 Eagle both because I am a terrible shot and need a rapid fire/rapid reload weapon in order to hit anything, and to keep the cool down at 200%.

First off, after talking taking on the initial Cannibals and then the Cerberus troops outside the facility I found I was often severely disoriented. I would have to bring up the power wheel after every charge to pause the game just so I could get my bearings and seek a new target. Also, because I am charging into clumps of bad guys, its impossible for me to tell where they all ended up, and if they are dead yet. How do you overcome this disorientation?

What am I supposed to do with Brutes, Atlases, and Banshees? I just cannot picture charging these guys. That would seem to require split second timing and supperior controller expertize just to get away from their melee attack.

What about Marauders and Centurions? Is it safe to charge them?

While Melee Synergy sounds like it might be useful, my problem is that I have to take my thumb off the camera stick to melee meaning there is a good chance I'll miss my target. Is this a poor choice?

[Ribosome]

If you feel like cheesing your way against brutes, banshees, and the like, nova cancelling is your friend (I find the easiest way to pull it off is to just side roll before the barriers are expended, you won't take any damage while this is going on and you can just skirt around them to avoid attacks). It gets a lot better once you get squad incendiary ammo though just because you can set it and forget it and using nova to detonate fire explosions will make everything a hell of a lot easier. Also reave is probably my favorite of the bonus powers because I can use to to self-detonate my own BE's if I feel like it's not safe enough to charge (I'm sure this kind of thing is a hassle to pull off on consoles though due to excessive pausing).

If you really want to cheese your way against every enemy with shotguns, the reegar carbine + rank 6 incendiary ammo melts through brutes, atlases, and banshees like a butter knife even without the weapon synergy charge upgrade. However after playing about halfway through the game relying on the reegar and pirahna I felt so guilty for trivializing everything so much that I just went back to using the claymore.

The melee synergy for Vanguards in SP is just horrendous because charge's cooldown is short enough and I would've rather had something like a weapon damage boost for heavy melee kills. Meh.

I feel the same about engineers and adepts though, where the "caster" style just doesn't align with my playstyle at all. I just go for a CQC style with the Wraith shotgun on all of my Sentinels so that's more up my alley. Then again, Vanguard has always been my favorite ME class from the very beginning so I feel like it's second nature

Modifié par ViaNegativia, 26 octobre 2013 - 09:19 .

[cap and gown]

How do you Nova cancel? Sounds like a PC thing if it is dependent on moving, since on the controller it is super easy to have the stick slightly off-center even when you don't want it to be.

[capn233]

cap and gown wrote...

So, I have decided to try out a Vanguard. Not really my style. It really goes against the grain of the way I like to fight, and it doesn't mesh well with just how poor I am with the controller. Indeed, I wonder if this class is really meant for use by PC players.

I think basically everything was meant for xbox players in the Mass Effect series.

When they introduced Charge in ME2, it did move Vanguard such that it was best for people already fairly well experienced in the game.  It would punish your mistakes a bit more harshly than ME3 though.

So I am Mars right now, level 31. I have biotic charge specced for: radius, power synergy, and barrier. For Nova I have radius and half blast. I have Reeve as my bonus power specced for radius and damage reduction. Assault mastery is at level 4 damage, and Fitness is rank 2. (Incendiary ammo rank starts at rank 1) I have reduced the difficulty to Normal.

I don't like Reave as a bonus for a Vanguard unless you were going caster primarily.  It interferes with Charge cooldown.  If you are reserving it as a situational power, you will rarely get the DR.  It makes more sense to use the squad for priming and Shepard for detonating.  Fortification would probably be the best power for you to take while you are learning since it will give you additional DR and the cooldown penalty isn't too bad.  But you don't necessarily need any bonus.  I like Slam as well, just because the cooldown is short.

Try to get to Rank 4 in Fitness with Durability and see if that helps you a little.

My only weapon is the N7 Eagle both because I am a terrible shot and need a rapid fire/rapid reload weapon in order to hit anything, and to keep the cool down at 200%.

The best weapons for Vanguard are those with very high burst damage so you can kill targets in as few shots as possible.  The Talon is a good example.  It is even sometimes better to consider a decent shotgun even if it weighs more than a crappy gun because it will damage the enemy.  That said, you can get by playing Vanguard without using your weapon, but you will need to be comboing with the squad frequently.  Try to save credits for the Wraith as fast as possible.

First off, after talking taking on the initial Cannibals and then the Cerberus troops outside the facility I found I was often severely disoriented. I would have to bring up the power wheel after every charge to pause the game just so I could get my bearings and seek a new target. Also, because I am charging into clumps of bad guys, its impossible for me to tell where they all ended up, and if they are dead yet. How do you overcome this disorientation?

This is mostly going to take more experience.

What am I supposed to do with Brutes, Atlases, and Banshees? I just cannot picture charging these guys. That would seem to require split second timing and supperior controller expertize just to get away from their melee attack.

You can charge all the enemies, even ones with sync kills.  SP is more forgiving partly because you have a small bit of time dilation coming out of charge.  So simply roll back or dodge to the side right after the charge.  Be aware of when enemies can perform sync kills and try not to charge in those windows.  Brutes need to smash first, Banshees go into sync out of teleporting (technically they transition to walking briefly before they sync you), and Atlases need to melee someone first.

What about Marauders and Centurions? Is it safe to charge them?

Any unit can be charged.  What makes it safe to charge usually depends more on the available cover and the location of other enemies.

While Melee Synergy sounds like it might be useful, my problem is that I have to take my thumb off the camera stick to melee meaning there is a good chance I'll miss my target. Is this a poor choice?

Unless you are planning on using melee frequently, don't go into melee synergy.  Take the extra shields at rank 6.  You can take the melee perk at Rank 5 since shield recharge only benefits a charge-less vanguard.

Nova Canceling

When you get to the apex of the Nova, dodge / roll right or left.  You will still get the 1.5s of immunity.

Modifié par capn233, 26 octobre 2013 - 10:13 .

[cap and gown]

capn233 wrote...

The best weapons for Vanguard are those with very high burst damage so you can kill targets in as few shots as possible.  The Talon is a good example.  It is even sometimes better to consider a decent shotgun even if it weighs more than a crappy gun because it will damage the enemy.  That said, you can get by playing Vanguard without using your weapon, but you will need to be comboing with the squad frequently.  Try to save credits for the Wraith as fast as possible.

I hate shotguns. Like I said, I am a terrible shot, especially at short range. The camera swings around too violently.  I am thinking the Tempest may be my go-to weapon. I like the SMGs because I can spray down an area and correct my aim while firing. At least a few bullets will hit.

[RedCaesar97]

If you are looking for build advice, then check here.

If you are concerned about staying alive, then Commander Shepard, the honorary krogan Battlemaster by Kronner may be good for you. (Note that Fortification isbetter than Barrier now).

Also, be sure to check out Optimal Builds At Level 40. This will give you some idea of how to build your Vanguard from the ground up.

But basically, listen to capn233. As a Vanguard, you only really need Charge and Nova, with some Incendiary Ammo thrown in for good measure (Explosive Burst at rank 6 is a must). Everything else is a bonus.

capn233 wrote...
When you get to the apex of the Nova, dodge / roll right or left.  You will still get the 1.5s of immunity.

You can also use (light) melee instead of dodge/roll. I prefer melee myself.


If you find yourself having trouble charging, then try charging at enemies near cover, so you can hit them, shoot them, and then duck into cover to get your bearings. 

And if you are still having trouble, then maybe Vanguard is not for you. Or you could spec out of Charge and Nova and play it like an Adept with Ammo powers (Pull, Shockwave, Reave/Dark Channel, Incendiary Ammo). But that is not nearly as powerful or efficient as Charge-Nova gameplay.

[capn233]

cap and gown wrote...

I hate shotguns. Like I said, I am a terrible shot, especially at short range. The camera swings around too violently.  I am thinking the Tempest may be my go-to weapon. I like the SMGs because I can spray down an area and correct my aim while firing. At least a few bullets will hit.

If you have the Eagle I assume you have the Hurricane, which would be the best option from the SMGs. Otherwise the Blood Pack Punisher is also good in SP.

[cap and gown]

Well, this is interesting.

Just cleared out the camp and ran into an unexpected problem: enemies spawning on top of me taking down my shields. Fortunately, I have Charge! Only got hit by a Brute once. The other times I was able to roll away fast enough. Course, everybody is extremely squishy on Normal.

I am not sure I quite understand what is going on with one aspect: on the squad menu it says I have a 3 second cool down on Charge, but it sure felt much shorter in practice. Basically, I would Charge, Nova, and then bring up the power wheel to seek out a new target. I am not sure that I once had a problem with a cool down delay. I think I may have fired all of 10 shots the entire time while waiting on a cool down. For the rest of the time is was charge/nova over and over and over.

I am beginning to wonder if this will be become as boring and repetitive as the soldier was in ME2. I guess I could jack up the difficulty, but I am not sure I have gotten my bearings yet.

Modifié par cap and gown, 27 octobre 2013 - 12:40 .

[known_hero]

Jack up the difficulty, dude. Trust me, this game isn't challenging at all.

[cap and gown]

known_hero wrote...

Jack up the difficulty, dude. Trust me, this game isn't challenging at all.

Do you get into everyone's thread and tell them how easy the game is?

Anyway: a question for Red or Capn: So how do you deal with turrets? Charging a group of turrets seems rather silly. But if I have to just sit back in cover until they are dealt with then what is the point of being a Vanguard? Without Charge a Vanguard is a crappy soldier and a crappy adept.

[known_hero]

Just trying to help you out. Watch, you're going to look back and laugh at this moment.

Don't get me wrong, this game is definitely fun but a challenge it is not.

As for turrets, bring Liara/Javik and use them as primers. Detonate with Shockwave/Charge/Nova. That strategy is effective against every enemy in the game.

[cap and gown]

Well, I read the Krogan Battlemaster thread and decided to go with Fortification/40% DR. Too bad the game doesn't tell you about the 4 second 50% DR from Charge. It sure doesn't feel that way since a bullet hitting you feels the same whether it is doing 100% damage or just 10% damage. There is some kind of time dilation right after Charging that is not mentioned in the description either. Or maybe that is from Nova?

Things I found at Grissom Academy:

First, I found an SMG magazine upgrade I had never seen before. I charged into one of the groups dropping in from the back of the big final hall and as I was looking around for my next victim a red circle appeared on a bench right beneath where they were dropping in from. Would never have known about that if I hadn't played a Vanguard.

Apparently squad control goes right out the window when you are a Vanguard. When we got into the Atrium I ordered Garrus and Liara into cover and then charged across the room. I guess I got too far away from them for their cover orders to hold because next I knew they were right next to me after I came out of a charge. It was really strange, too, because I had charged up to one of those planter platforms where an engineer was setting up a turret.

That was also kind of weird, charging up to the balcony, then back down to the main floor. At one point there was a group of centurions on the balcony directly above me, about 8 feet above me, but I was able to charge up there, no problem. Then it was back down to the main floor.

I managed to get killed by the Atlas in the last room. I decided my mistake was not letting it get far enough out into the room so that I could roll away from it effectively. So on the rerun I let it get into the hall further while we nibbled away its shield, then I had Liara Warp it and charged in.

Smoke actually makes a difference now. As an Engineer or Sentinel I never care about smoke: it will clear and I will shoot them when it does. Until then I can just hang out in cover and wait. As a Vanguard I need a target for charging and smoke hinders that.

It is really weird getting right up in a Guardian's face and shooting the crap out of him. Even if Charge only has a minor stagger effect, it does provide DR and time dilation, enough to either finish them off or simply charge again. Indeed, I found myself charging troopers that were so close they were just about to omni-blade me. I figured the best way to stop that was not to shoot them, or melee, but simply Charge them, even thought they were just a foot away. Charge, Charge, Charge. Nothing but charge.

[Ribosome]

As someone who primarily plays as a vanguard, the enemy I've grown to hate the most are the cerberus engineers. Theres nothing quite as frustrating as getting staggered by their exploding backpacks thus creating enough  leeway for every other enemy to focus you down 

Modifié par ViaNegativia, 27 octobre 2013 - 04:38 .

[cap and gown]

Hmm, that probably explains some of the stagger I have been seeing.

[capn233]

cap and gown wrote...

Anyway: a question for Red or Capn: So how do you deal with turrets?

For now you should take out turrets at range, and don't charge into an area with multiple turrets (there really is only one spot that consistently has multiple turrets in SP anyway).

If you get confident enough with the Vanguard you will be able to charge turrets in certain circumstances.  Turrets have a small window before they fire, added to the natural DR from Charge and maybe a little Nova immunity frames, you can take them out before they kill you with a little help from some squad power casting.

As for a Vanguard without Charge, the character is actually still pretty decent that way, he just plays differently.  It would be more like the ME1 version, but in this one you would be concentrating on using biotic detonators for biotic or tech squad mates.  Granted, it would work even better if Shockwave was designed better and wasn't buggy on some platforms.

[draken-heart]

cap and gown wrote...

capn233 wrote...

The best weapons for Vanguard are those with very high burst damage so you can kill targets in as few shots as possible.  The Talon is a good example.  It is even sometimes better to consider a decent shotgun even if it weighs more than a crappy gun because it will damage the enemy.  That said, you can get by playing Vanguard without using your weapon, but you will need to be comboing with the squad frequently.  Try to save credits for the Wraith as fast as possible.

I hate shotguns. Like I said, I am a terrible shot, especially at short range. The camera swings around too violently.  I am thinking the Tempest may be my go-to weapon. I like the SMGs because I can spray down an area and correct my aim while firing. At least a few bullets will hit.

IF you are up close, then there should be no reason for you to be a terrible shot/bad with the control. Shotties are the easiest weapons to control at that range.

IF you want to use the SMGs, just gonna say this now, but Vanguard might not be the class you even want to think about trying. Vanguard weapon bonuses usually go for shotty over SMG.

For general information, you biggest enemy will be shielded ones, so mainy Cerberus.

Modifié par draken-heart, 27 octobre 2013 - 01:16 .

[cap and gown]

Well, my Eagle is working out just fine. I am hardly ever using my weapon as it is. Having the power magnifier means I have even less need for my weapon. The only time I have used the weapon so far is against Guardians and Atlases. Everyone else gets Charge/Nova. For the Guardians I charge in then shoot them with the Eagle until charge cools down, then charge again. Same with the Atlas on Surkesh: Charge, back up and fire, Charge again.

Tried out N7: Cerberus Presence on Normal and finished it faster then I ever had. So I reloaded, set the difficulty to Insanity and ran it again. I did not notice any difference.

[RedCaesar97]

cap and gown wrote...
Anyway: a question for Red or Capn: So how do you deal with turrets?

It depends.

For the most part, you will only have to deal with one turret at a time. So you can charge > shoot > Nova ( > and maybe shoot some more or Nova again) and then the turret will be destroyed. 

In places like Grissom Academy or Cerberus HQ (Chronos Station), you may have to deal with multiple turrets. So for those situations, you may have to sit back, or try to plan an attack where you charge and destroy a turret and then duck into safe cover.

cap and gown wrote...

Well, my Eagle is working out just fine. I am hardly ever using my weapon as it is. Having the power magnifier means I have even less need for my weapon. The only time I have used the weapon so far is against Guardians and Atlases. Everyone else gets Charge/Nova. For the Guardians I charge in then shoot them with the Eagle until charge cools down, then charge again. Same with the Atlas on Surkesh: Charge, back up and fire, Charge again.

 

Power Magnifier mods on Pistols and SMGs increases power damage, but not force. I cannot recall off hand if Charge is merely force or if it does deal some damage. But the Power Amplifier mod will increase the damage of Nova and Incendiary Ammo.

The Hurricane is a whole lot better than the Eagle. I do not have either for single player, but they have the same stats as multiplayer and the Hurricane is just better than the Eagle.

You can get more weapon damage out of shotguns since your Assault Mastery passive has a nice bonus to shotgun damage at rank 6. But you have said that you do not like shotguns, so by all means, stick with the power damage bonus at rank 6 instead. The Weapon Damage bonus at rank 5 in Charge applies to all weapons and should be better than the power damage bonus. 

cap and gown wrote...

Tried out N7: Cerberus Presence on Normal and finished it faster then I ever had. So I reloaded, set the difficulty to Insanity and ran it again. I did not notice any difference.

You may notice the difficulty difference in some missions or scenarios, but for the most part you probably will not.

[Navasha]

I never use Nova for my Vanguards. Pick a powerful but fast firing shotgun. Carry no other weapons to be as light as possible. You NEED to be able to charge every few seconds.

Basically its Charge, shotgun blast to the head, charge away. Charging Banshees and Atlases are pretty much the same, just be ready to charge, blast, then get away quick.

Biggest downfall is Turrets... Don't charge them, best to take them out from cover or have companions take those. Charging a Guardian will stun them making their head visible which generally die with a single close range shotgun blast.

In singleplayer, that time slowdown when you charge makes aiming pretty simple.

[cap and gown]

Charge has a base damage of 250.

I prefer the Eagle because I can handle the recoil. The Hurricane is useless without the recoil dampener, meaning that I can't use the power magnifier since the other slot is taken up by the high velocity barrel. With the Eagle I can have a power magnifier and piercing mod. I use the Hurricane when I play Sentinel since I use armor piercing ammo as my bonus and thus can dispense with the high velocity barrel.

Maybe the Piranha would work, but I have never had much success with shotguns.

Let me amend that: The only time I have had success with shotguns is in ME2 playing as a Soldier. With AR I can actually hit something.

Modifié par cap and gown, 27 octobre 2013 - 05:01 .

[Nitrocuban]

Hurricane is perfect for Vanguards cause up close spray&pray is enough to kill everything and recoil on a Hurricane X isn't that bad anyway, maybe with a low level Hurrican its good to have a Pistol with Ultralight Materials as sidearm.

[capn233]

Different strokes for different folks I guess. Hurricane has zoomrecoil of 0.85 to the 0.6 of the Eagle, but damage is a good deal higher as is ROF so it is better with Incendiary Ammo. Also don't think Power Magnifier is really necessary with the Vanguard's skillset since you are predominantly using your powers to detonate combos and the magnifier does not affect combo damage. Hurricane also throws out a "wall of lead" since it is a bit inaccurate, but has significantly higher burst damage than Eagle, which is why I think it is easier to use effectively and has lower time to kills.

Piranha is also something of a flak cannon, so you would probably find it works fairly well. Might feel like the ME2 Scimitar to you.

Modifié par capn233, 27 octobre 2013 - 07:32 .

[Ribosome]

The Piranha turns harvesters into paste so quickly that it caused me to run into that bug on Tuchanka (mission where you find the primarch's son) where killing a certain one would cause the rest of the spawns to never show up thus rendering the mission impossible.

So basically I think it was the game's way of telling me that the gun is way too good

Modifié par ViaNegativia, 27 octobre 2013 - 08:42 .

[capn233]

Harvesters used to be even easier to kill when they took headshot damage.

[Abraham_uk]

Biotic Charge and Nova are two of six powers available to the Vanguard.
You have your two ammo types which you can switch between.

You can ragdoll foes adept style with pull and shockwave.

So even without any bonus powers you have other options besides flanking and charging.


So maybe charging into a phantom or banshee isn't the brightest idea (sync kill comes to mind). Well you can shoot them. Incendiary ammo is great for taking care of armor, cryo ammo is a nice ammo type for weakening armor and freezing foes without protections.

Want to stagger some foes? Shockwave will handle that.
Want to pull foes towards you? Biotic pull is nice.

Of course there is the ever popular biotic charge followed by nova and then shotgun blast to the face. It never gets old, it never gets boring. Though some opponents may lock you into a sync kill animation. Also just after you've used Nova you are really vulnerable. All of your barriers (or half if you used a certain evolution) are now down.


As long as you think of the vanguard as a versatile class rather than a charge/nova only kit, you shouldn't run into too many problems.

Modifié par Abraham_uk, 28 octobre 2013 - 09:29 .