37 réponses à ce sujet

[EthanDirtch]

Sorry if this was in a Codex entry somewhere, but aside from a passing mention here or there about the difficulty of flushing out the Deep Roads of Darkspawn infestation, how come Thedas has never united and run the Darkspawn out of the underground kingdom of the dwarves?

I mean, if we're to think this through logically, one can assume that if Thedas had a stronger foothold beneath the surface, it would be harder for the Darkspawn to 'blight' the world above. And, of course, the working theory is that if the Darkspawn are outright killed into extinction then an Old God will not be woken up on the wrong side of the dragon's lair ala taint. And even if they woke to become Archdemons sans Darkspawn they'd at least not have an army at their beck and call.

So strictly within fiction, how come Thedas had never united and journeyed into the Deep Roads? Is it because of politics? "Dwarven problems are for Dwarves"? Is it Dwarven stubborness about not accepting surfacer help? Is it simply an issue of prolonged exposure to the pockets of lyrium littered about in the Deep Roads?

[wrathofnature]

Unless a blight occurs and forces the surface to band together to defeat it, they don't really know/care about what's going on in the deep roads I think. Dwarves are left to fight against the darkspawn while the surface enjoys the 'peace'.

[David Gaider]

Consider a comparison to the war in Vietnam -- send an army into hostile territory, one that you don't know very well and which your enemy is well-suited to, and it doesn't really matter how large your army is. It's a losing proposition.

The Deep Roads are dark... and foreign to surface armies, with most places having insufficient room to actually fight in. Plus once the blight (meaning the disease) got hold in a cramped army like that it would spread like wildifre -- creating many ghouls that would just make your foe stronger.

Does this mean that they couldn't try? Of course they could. The worth of doing so when most people have enough problems of their own to content with without sending their armies to possible death in the Deep Roads is questionable, however.

Modifié par David Gaider, 20 janvier 2010 - 03:31 .

[Sandtigress]

It also seems to me that the darkspawn are in other areas than just the Deep Roads. No one really knows where the darkspawn are from. So maybe you could eliminate them entirely from the Deep Roads, and not really do a whole lot about the problem.



Plus, they managed to nearly demolish the entire Dwarven nation. That's not a force most people would want to march into.



And on the less nice side of things, really, people are kind of lazy. If they can't see the problem, they don't really have a great desire to fix things. Once the darkspawn retreat from the surface world, the people seem to have a habit of forgetting they exist - hence the currrent problem of declining Grey Warden numbers and esteem in the eyes of the people.

[EthanDirtch]

Hmm, I suppose. Good analogy with the Vietnam thing, David!



But couldn't there be other ways the surfacers could help support the dwarves? I mean, we know a group of four warriors could cut through a section of the Deep Roads...though, I guess that speaks more about the quality of the said warriors than anything else.

[kormesios]

It wouldn't make sense.



First, if history holds, Orlais or the Qunari become more serious threats to every living person once the blight ends. Why devote resources (which are in pretty short supply, seeing as you've just been ravaged by a blight) attacking someone who's not going to be a threat for 400 years? Rebuilding should be a first priority.



Second, it might be pointless. Could you actually completely exterminate the darkspawn? If not, you've lost a lot of people possibly for nothing. They'll still come swarming out again one day.



The isolationist nature of the dwarves certainly don't help things.



Finally, and maybe most importantly, there's no profit to the individuals who'd fight. In real life, "crusades" against the Moslems, Albigensians, Sicilian Normans, etc. attracted talented warriors in part because there was a lot land to be distributed if they won. Minor noble sons became kings. But what do you get if you're a great human general who crushes the darkspawn underground? Nothing. You're not going to rule over an underground duchy. No, you'd just return to the surface and probably be all resentful that the other nobles who've done nothing have more than you--which is why the king isn't going to give you troops in the first place.



To even be conceivable, you'd probably need a time of very stable peace, lots of goodwill, and a religious frenzy to motivate people to sacrifice themselves for no again. Certainly that didn't exist in this blight. An egotistical king might start it off, too, I suppose.

[EthanDirtch]

hmm, I suppose that's true.



I guess the only way would be...if there was a huge upswing in Grey Warden recruitment and almost all of them decide to one day take the fight to the Darkspawn rather than waiting for the next Blight >_> but even then...

[Brass_Buckles]

EthanDirtch wrote...

hmm, I suppose that's true.

I guess the only way would be...if there was a huge upswing in Grey Warden recruitment and almost all of them decide to one day take the fight to the Darkspawn rather than waiting for the next Blight >_> but even then...

Somehow, the mental image this produces amuses me.  I can see these few thousand Grey Wardens from all over Thedas marching into Orzammar, fully armored, and demanding of the Dwarven King that they be allowed to enter the Deep Roads because they are bent on the destruction of all things darkspawn.

Ten years later, they still haven't returned, and Thedas is without Grey Wardens to protect against the next Blight...

[wwwwowwww]

Out of site out of mind is the phrase that comes to my mind

[Costin_Razvan]

I think the only ones who could have done such a feat ( as in presenting a united front ) was the Tevinter Imperium, but Andraste invaded them very soon after the first Blight ended so ye...

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 20 janvier 2010 - 06:15 .

[metatheurgist]

I would've thought the easy solution would be to stop supplying them with Broodmothers.

[Wompoo]

Flood the deep roads, use blood mages to create a bio weapon, Dark Spawn specific. Feed the wardens to them, as I see little to nothing of worth in them other then sacrificial slabs of meat. Forcefully remove the dwarfs and release acid based gasses into the deep roads or make... final option, kill the Maker as that sod is to blame.

[gotthammer]

Or they can build lots of explosives (the Qunari have that tech, right?) and collapse the deep roads!

(of course, following the Vietnam analogy, wouldn't that be like trying to bomb the Ho Chi Minh trail? i.e., ultimately a wasteful, if not pointless, effort? )

Granted the Dwarves won't be happy, but I think the concept of 'hearts and minds' wasn't that developed then in that setting, yes?



I do agree on the point against sending an army or armies into the Deep Roads. Other than the aforementioned problems, there's also problems w/ logistics, not to mention command (who will lead it? and why will people follow against what is, for most of the world, a hidden threat?) and morale (if dwarves don't like the sky...you think humans/elves will like the idea of having thousands upon thousands of rock/earth hanging over them constantly, not to mention the lack of sunlight for what could be months?).

[Vicious]

It's pretty much impossible. Just live your life and hope that the checks and balances in place will stop the next blight and the next blight until the Archdemons are all dead and gone.

[TyroneTasty]

Forget the Deep Roads. You'd need to take an entire mage army into the Fade and destroy the Black City and end that mess once and for all. The Archdemon is clearly a pawn. If anything, The Maker still resides in the Black City and has simply gone crazy as a Genlock. Essentially to stop anymore Blights from ever happening ever again you have to kill God. Sign me up, Dragon Age 4 can't come soon enough.

Speculation is so fun.

Modifié par TyroneTasty, 20 janvier 2010 - 08:03 .

[Legbiter]

Yeah like Gaider said it'd be a logistical nightmare coupled with a very difficult terrain. Even a half-decent effort might just degenerate into a series of exhausting and claustrophobic "tunnel-actions", which after six months of hard fighting yield control of cul-de-sac #452.



Plus, any nation/barbarian tribe which didn't participate in the effort could use the opportunity to encroach on their neighbors while their forces were away in the Deep Roads. So such an undertaking would require unheard of political unity in Thedas. The Grey Wardens are probably about the closest you can get to a common Thedas-wide effort to fight the spawn.

[TyroneTasty]

I like the dwarves in this game for this exact reason, they're the unsung heroes of the game. Learning about how they fight off the Darkspawn all the damn time really made me respect them and feel kind of silly at the same time to act like fighting the Darkspawn every few hundred years on the surface meant anything at all. It's not surprising Oghren can crush the skulls of Genlocks while drunk off his ass.

[draxynnus]

Apparently, one of the Epilogue endings actually semi-explains this - the Dwarf Noble can ask for military support for Orzammar for a boon, and this results in the Darkspawn being pushed back to the Deep Trenches. So a unified effort could in principle at least put a dent in them - however, it's likely that the Darkspawn have holes deep enough that this would be easier said then done.



On the whole, it simply seems to be a case of the surface world having other problems at times when there isn't a Blight. Comparatively speaking, in fact, even this blight seems to have been less of a threat to Thedas than, say, the qunari invasion - it didn't get much past the borders of Ferelden, after all. (At least before the Archdemon's death...)

[ArathWoeeye]

Even with a possible Blight around, there is a lot of treachery and intrigue going on. I doubt anyone could unite without their asses being bitten by the spawn. Heck, dwarves are so and they have a lot of intrigue!

[Xandurpein]

I suppose I didn't really think about it, but wouldn't an aftermath of the climatic Battle of Denerim in the game be that a significant portion of the Fereldan army would eventually succumb to the blight and become ghouls, unless they were killed for their own good. It seems a ghastly end to things, but likely nontheless or did I miss something?



A related question I don't know the answer to would be if the Legion of the Dead have some special protection against the Blight (the disease) fro their long war against the Darkspawn.

[draxynnus]

I suspect becoming a Ghoul might require a stronger dosage of the taint than simply fighting the Darkspawn, such as prolonged exposure or ingesting their blood (possible, in the thick of the fighting, and quite likely if you fight them a lot like the Wardens do, but far from being a certainty even if you fight them on the front lines). In Ostagar, for instance, we do have a few references to their blood being poisonous - that's what makes the Mabari sick, and one of the soldiers there is explaining to the others that they should avoid Darkspawn blood.

Regarding the Legion of the Dead... I expect their "protection" is that if they feel themselves going, they go and get themselves their honourable death now. Since regular Warrior Caste Dwarves fight Darkspawn as well, though, I suspect the end conclusion is simply that yes it IS possible to fight Darkspawn without necessarily becoming subject to enough of the taint to become a ghoul - but the risk is there in every skirmish.

Modifié par draxynnus, 20 janvier 2010 - 12:17 .

[EthanDirtch]

draxynnus: While likely true, it's just hard to believe what with how gore is presently depicted in game XD if you're melee you're drenched in darkspawn blood more than half the time! Good thing you already got your dose of darkspawn blood during the Joining, right? haha



And, yeah, I guess it simply is impossible from so many angles. The only way--aside from the aforementioned army of grey wardens--would likely be to create new weapons, ala golems, or qunari technology, to effectively control Darkspawn underground.

[Erakleitos]

Just send in a bunch of Sandal-s and goodbye Darkspawn

[EthanDirtch]

Ya know, I would think that--if the choice was clearly presented to the dwarves--some of the warrior caste and the Legion of the Dead would actually find it appealing to become a golem. From all accounts, at the height of the golem numbers, they were actually quite effective in checking the Darkspawn threat.



Especially of the Legion of the Dead, considering they already considered themselves dead (hence their name >_> ). Maybe even Wardens who are 'retiring' to the Deep Roads could undertake becoming a golem.

[cara10]

No Darkspawn no Blight. No Blight no game. Then we all had to play Tetris or something.