37 réponses à ce sujet

[GmanFresh]

no they could simply reinforce the legion of dead who do know the roads well.....

[Bhatair]

EthanDirtch wrote...

Hmm, I suppose. Good analogy with the Vietnam thing, David!

But couldn't there be other ways the surfacers could help support the dwarves? I mean, we know a group of four warriors could cut through a section of the Deep Roads...though, I guess that speaks more about the quality of the said warriors than anything else.

Or perhaps because they were lead by a grey warden (possibly two) and being such a small force, they potentially are able to sense and detour around large gatherings of Darkspawn that an army would have to face head on.

Just a thought

[shree420]

Good question. David and the other posters have given very valid reasons for it.



As a related mission, the more practical thing would be to seek out the sleeping Elder gods before the darkspawn do, since that's what gives them the impetus and Blight impact. You'd need to petition Tevinter to help here, since it's their long-forgotten gods that are at fault here.



The dwarves could help you tunnel, Tevinter mages could help you locate them. Morrigan's ritual, for example, is very interesting in how it stores an elder god away for later use



Of course, as somebody pointed out, DA: The Very Last Game We Promise will probably have us meet a very miffed Maker at the end, in the Mother of All Persuade Checks. Think Saren to the nth. "Please come back. Your people need you."



"I will not! There was to be cake! The cake is a lie!"

[Sandtigress]

shree420 wrote...

Good question. David and the other posters have given very valid reasons for it.

As a related mission, the more practical thing would be to seek out the sleeping Elder gods before the darkspawn do, since that's what gives them the impetus and Blight impact. You'd need to petition Tevinter to help here, since it's their long-forgotten gods that are at fault here.

This suggestion is mentioned in the Calling, the second of the Dragon Age novels.  It is proposed that the Old Gods are in too remote a location for anyone to survive getting to them to kill them, such that knowledge of where they are is for all intents and purposes fairly useless.  There are some interesting suggestions on what to do with that knowledge that might play a role in the upcoming expansion Awakening though, so if you're interested, I suggest you read the book.  Its a good read too, so that's a big plus.

[EthanDirtch]

I guess the very last thing to do (and may very well happen in a future expansion/sequel/book) would be to simply move the dwarves out of the underground, rather than go through the time of reinforcing what is essentially a lost cause. Of course, considering their vastly different culture, they'd probably get an Exalted March called down on them, ala the Dalish

[TheRealIncarnal]

I just can't picture the entire Dwarven nation willingly leaving the underground. Besides, I think that the Dwarves actually do something vital, they constantly buffer the Darkspawn advances. I bet that the last Blight would have happened even sooner had it not been for the Dwarves.

[SuperMaoriFulla]

I wouldn't put it past Branka (if you let her live and reactivate the Anvil of the Void) to exploit Qunari technology and try and incorporate it into some new kind of Golem War Machine that incorporates cannons and crystal based weaponry.

[EthanDirtch]

SuperMaoriFulla wrote...

I wouldn't put it past Branka (if you let her live and reactivate the Anvil of the Void) to exploit Qunari technology and try and incorporate it into some new kind of Golem War Machine that incorporates cannons and crystal based weaponry.

More than likely, if it was a combo of Bhelen as King and Branka still alive, they'd somehow use qunari tech and other extant technology to create suicide golems. If there's a threat so massive that it will overwhelm dwarven and golem forces, they can then send some or all the golems into self-destruct mode or some such...It just seems like the thing Bhelen would do (who values winning more than anything) and Branka is obviously crazy enough to go along with it.

[Vicious]

EthanDirtch wrote...

I guess the very last thing to do (and may very well happen in a future expansion/sequel/book) would be to simply move the dwarves out of the underground, rather than go through the time of reinforcing what is essentially a lost cause. Of course, considering their vastly different culture, they'd probably get an Exalted March called down on them, ala the Dalish

There is a codex entry in the game where the Dwarves speculate on what will happen if they are gone or forced from the underground - they state the surfacers have zero clue about what the Dwarves had and lost and what they fight with on a daily basis, and the loss of the last Dwarven kingdoms would basically make the surface world face, as the Dwarves call it, a 'blight without end.' because the Darkspawn would literally have nowhere to go except up.

Bad, bad news. The Dwarves are definetly the unsung heroes of the game. Orzammar might not survive much longer. Kal Sharok is probably home to a completely different dwarven society, seeing as how Kal Sharok was thought lost for so long... and they obviously survived despite everything thrown at them.

[draxynnus]

EthanDirtch wrote...

Ya know, I would think that--if the choice was clearly presented to the dwarves--some of the warrior caste and the Legion of the Dead would actually find it appealing to become a golem. From all accounts, at the height of the golem numbers, they were actually quite effective in checking the Darkspawn threat.

Especially of the Legion of the Dead, considering they already considered themselves dead (hence their name >_> ). Maybe even Wardens who are 'retiring' to the Deep Roads could undertake becoming a golem.

Something like this is actually discussed in-game - a conversation between Oghren and Shale, for instance.

The problem is, well, dwarven politics. Caridin spells it out quite clearly: Its one thing when golems are created from volunteers, dedicated warriors and others who legitimately consider their lives to be over. It's quite another when any despot can force anyone - criminals, political enemies - to become a golem and use a control rod to force them to do their bidding.

If there was no control rod technology, it might work, since then you'd want to make sure the people becoming Golems were genuine volunteers. Over time, this would probably lead to a decent recruitment rate, as golemhood could end up as something similar in nature to Protoss Dragoons - a way to allow mortally wounded or aged Dwarves to achieve a kind of immortality and continue to serve their kingdom. The problem is, with the existence of control rods, the temptation to craft golems from the unwilling is just too great.

[shree420]

Sandtigress wrote...

shree420 wrote...

Good question. David and the other posters have given very valid reasons for it.

As a related mission, the more practical thing would be to seek out the sleeping Elder gods before the darkspawn do, since that's what gives them the impetus and Blight impact. You'd need to petition Tevinter to help here, since it's their long-forgotten gods that are at fault here.

This suggestion is mentioned in the Calling, the second of the Dragon Age novels.  It is proposed that the Old Gods are in too remote a location for anyone to survive getting to them to kill them, such that knowledge of where they are is for all intents and purposes fairly useless.  There are some interesting suggestions on what to do with that knowledge that might play a role in the upcoming expansion Awakening though, so if you're interested, I suggest you read the book.  Its a good read too, so that's a big plus.

Thanks for the heads-up. Haven't read the book, and if it might spoil Awakening, better off not reading it.

But if the darkspawn can burrow hard and long enough to meet these gods, surely the Grey Wardens, given their long history, could start a centuries-lasting program to find and meet these lost gods? I don't think the darkspawn have any special digging tools that dwarves don't; nor are they immune to these threats.

Of course, it's not as glamorous as plunging blades and martyring yourselves when the Blights happen, and then we'd have the the Grey Miners instead of the Grey Wardens.

[MagiST]

kormesios wrote...

It wouldn't make sense.

First, if history holds, Orlais or the Qunari become more serious threats to every living person once the blight ends. Why devote resources (which are in pretty short supply, seeing as you've just been ravaged by a blight) attacking someone who's not going to be a threat for 400 years? Rebuilding should be a first priority.

Second, it might be pointless. Could you actually completely exterminate the darkspawn? If not, you've lost a lot of people possibly for nothing. They'll still come swarming out again one day.

The isolationist nature of the dwarves certainly don't help things.

Finally, and maybe most importantly, there's no profit to the individuals who'd fight. In real life, "crusades" against the Moslems, Albigensians, Sicilian Normans, etc. attracted talented warriors in part because there was a lot land to be distributed if they won. Minor noble sons became kings. But what do you get if you're a great human general who crushes the darkspawn underground? Nothing. You're not going to rule over an underground duchy. No, you'd just return to the surface and probably be all resentful that the other nobles who've done nothing have more than you--which is why the king isn't going to give you troops in the first place.

To even be conceivable, you'd probably need a time of very stable peace, lots of goodwill, and a religious frenzy to motivate people to sacrifice themselves for no again. Certainly that didn't exist in this blight. An egotistical king might start it off, too, I suppose.

Kormesios is  brilliant.  He is like Napoleon, like Macheavelli, he understands humans.... and qunari and dwarves.  Logahain was an idiot... seriously... it was the Orliesan?

[Lotion Soronarr]

kormesios wrote...

Finally, and maybe most importantly,
there's no profit to the individuals who'd fight. In real life,
"crusades" against the Moslems, Albigensians, Sicilian Normans, etc.
attracted talented warriors in part because there was a lot land to be
distributed if they won. Minor noble sons became kings. But what do you
get if you're a great human general who crushes the darkspawn
underground? Nothing. You're not going to rule over an underground
duchy. No, you'd just return to the surface and probably be all
resentful that the other nobles who've done nothing have more than
you--which is why the king isn't going to give you troops in the first
place.

Erm...no.
The Crusades were extreemely
expensive affairs. Even rich nobles could end up poor if they emarked
on them. Teh Crusades were notoriously bad for looters - a few did get
rich, but the vast majority got nothing out of it.
EDUCATION TIME:

Pope Urban II
called upon the knights of Christendom to push back the conquests of
Islam at the Council of Clermont in 1095. The response was tremendous.
Many thousands of warriors took the vow of the cross and prepared for
war. Why did they do it? The answer to that question has been badly
misunderstood. In the wake of the Enlightenment, it was usually
asserted that Crusaders were merely lacklands and ne'er-do-wells who
took advantage of an opportunity to rob and pillage in a faraway land.
The Crusaders' expressed sentiments of piety, self-sacrifice, and love
for God were obviously not to be taken seriously. They were only a
front for darker designs.

During the past two decades, computer-assisted
charter studies have demolished that contrivance. Scholars have
discovered that crusading knights were generally wealthy men with
plenty of their own land in Europe. Nevertheless, they willingly gave
up everything to undertake the holy mission. Crusading was not cheap.
Even wealthy lords could easily impoverish themselves and their
families by joining a Crusade. They did so not because they expected
material wealth (which many of them had already) but because they hoped
to store up treasure where rust and moth could not corrupt. They were
keenly aware of their sinfulness and eager to undertake the hardships
of the Crusade as a penitential act of charity and love. Europe is
littered with thousands of medieval charters attesting to these
sentiments, charters in which these men still speak to us today if we
will listen. Of course, they were not opposed to capturing booty if it
could be had. But the truth is that the Crusades were notoriously bad
for plunder. A few people got rich, but the vast majority returned with
nothing.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 21 janvier 2010 - 09:23 .