211 réponses à ce sujet

[dragonflight288]

FreshIstay wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

This is an article I recommend people read with an open mind and at least take it for what its worth, and then look at the similarities the author uses in providing her own back story growing up in such a fashion.

I don't ask that anyone take it as gospel truth in the Dragon Age universe, but simply take it into consideration as it does make a great deal of sense. 

thelostgirl21.deviantart.com/art/Chantry-Circles-as-narcissistic-family-Anders-274235987

PS: Can anyone explain how I can create a link to the site without the website, say "Go here" is the link itself.

Here we go again blaming it all on Daddy Issue's. 
Mage's are not rebellious children.

*shakes head*

This article isn't blaming it on daddy/mommy issues, nor does it liken mages unto rebellios children.

It uses the narcisstic family model as an analogy, and isn't meant to be taken as literal.

Again, all I ask is that you read it in its entirety with an open mind, and then look at what the author wrote about her own life and how it compares. Your opinion after that is your own. All I ask is that you not dismiss it out of hand.

[Plaintiff]

CynicalShep wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I don't expect the issue to ever be resolved.

And since the entire crux of the conflict is that the Templars want to prevent the Mages from having an 'equal footing', I don't see how such a thing can ever be found.

Mages can't have equal footing by default. They'll either be opressed or opress.

That is complete and utter nonsense. There is always another way.

[Cainhurst Crow]

The whole issue with mages is probably one of the most interesting takes on it, in that most people don't place x-men ideas into fantasy. But yeah, just like how I feel the mutant and superhuman registration acts are not only fair and reasonable, but pretty good ideas when dealing with people who have the potential to blow up a city block and kill hundreds of people on a whim and can't be disarmed humanely, I feel that the whole "mages should be equal" line a bit unthoughtful.

If you actually sit down and think on things, mages are by their very nature unequal to everyone else. They have access to power that can't be humanely disarmed, have countless abilities to not only threaten countless lives, but be undetectable until they enact their plans, and can only be neutralized by extremely skilled fighters or specially trained knights. They need more restrictions on them then the average person, just like a person who has firearms has more restrictions placed on them then everyone else. A man with a gun could be the most responsible person on the planet, but we would find it insane to allow such a person to bring their gun to, say, a school during a parent teacher conference. Or a church for sunday mass, or a theater to watch a movie, or a mall in order to do some casual shopping. And we would especially have a problem with said gun not being in any sort of case or holster, but just carried around at all times armed and loaded.

Mages are essentially that guy with the gun. They should be acknowledged as such, and shouldn't be lied about in pretending they're just like everyone else and that their magic is no big deal. The guy with the gun he wants to bring everywhere is exactly like you or me, no different emotionally and is no less human. But they need more restrictions while they have their loaded gun, and so do mages with their always loaded magic.

[Br3admax]

Plaintiff wrote...

CynicalShep wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I don't expect the issue to ever be resolved.

And since the entire crux of the conflict is that the Templars want to prevent the Mages from having an 'equal footing', I don't see how such a thing can ever be found.

Mages can't have equal footing by default. They'll either be opressed or opress.

That is complete and utter nonsense. There is always another way.

In an ideal world, yes. But from a logical stand point, it will most likely never happen for the reasons that it has enver worked before. 

[Plaintiff]

Br3ad wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

CynicalShep wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I don't expect the issue to ever be resolved.

And since the entire crux of the conflict is that the Templars want to prevent the Mages from having an 'equal footing', I don't see how such a thing can ever be found.

Mages can't have equal footing by default. They'll either be opressed or opress.

That is complete and utter nonsense. There is always another way.

In an ideal world, yes. But from a logical stand point, it will most likely never happen for the reasons that it has enver worked before. 

Except all the times that minority groups have been given equal rights.

It is not 'logical' to roll over and accept ignorance just because it happens to be the majority opinion.

[Br3admax]

Plaintiff wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

CynicalShep wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I don't expect the issue to ever be resolved.

And since the entire crux of the conflict is that the Templars want to prevent the Mages from having an 'equal footing', I don't see how such a thing can ever be found.

Mages can't have equal footing by default. They'll either be opressed or opress.

That is complete and utter nonsense. There is always another way.

In an ideal world, yes. But from a logical stand point, it will most likely never happen for the reasons that it has enver worked before. 

Except all the times that minority groups have been given equal rights.

It is not 'logical' to roll over and accept ignorance just because it happens to be the majority opinion.

Mages are conduits of almost limitless power , that can destroy on a whim and can cause terror on the scale of a small army alone. It's not the same as saying that the grandfather clause is wrong. 

[Spectre slayer]

One of the major plot points will be mage vs templar according to their official site, as for whether or not we have to side with one faction or not is something i'm not sure of, though it could be possible we can just crush both of them if you want to aslong as the conflict stops but that will probably have major consequences.

If we have to pick a side or use diplomacy or destroy them will most likely be up to us since they've said we don't owe any allegiance to anyone and want to give us freedom of choice but we'll see.

[Plaintiff]

Br3ad wrote...
Mages are conduits of almost limitless power , that can destroy on a whim and can cause terror on the scale of a small army alone. It's not the same as saying that the grandfather clause is wrong. 

I've yet to see any mage in the Dragon Age franchise exhibit such power.

And even if I had, imprisoning people for merely possessing the capacity to do violence is wrong, period.

Punishment comes after the crime, not before.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 28 octobre 2013 - 05:01 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

Forget demons, what about just bad mages who either want to hurt people or simply don't care what using their powers in whatever way they want will do to others?

Those people are why circles exist in the first place, because power can corrupt, and mages have more raw power then anyone else on thedas. It's like why we have laws in the first place, it's all based on the worst actions that people do, not the best ones they do.

[Plaintiff]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Forget demons, what about just bad mages who either want to hurt people or simply don't care what using their powers in whatever way they want will do to others?

Those people are why circles exist in the first place, because power can corrupt, and mages have more raw power then anyone else on thedas. It's like why we have laws in the first place, it's all based on the worst actions that people do, not the best ones they do.

We don't put people in prison for having power. The law exists to punish people for their actions, not for existing.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 28 octobre 2013 - 05:04 .

[AlexanderCousland]

dragonflight288 wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

This is an article I recommend people read with an open mind and at least take it for what its worth, and then look at the similarities the author uses in providing her own back story growing up in such a fashion.

I don't ask that anyone take it as gospel truth in the Dragon Age universe, but simply take it into consideration as it does make a great deal of sense. 

thelostgirl21.deviantart.com/art/Chantry-Circles-as-narcissistic-family-Anders-274235987

PS: Can anyone explain how I can create a link to the site without the website, say "Go here" is the link itself.

Here we go again blaming it all on Daddy Issue's. 
Mage's are not rebellious children.

*shakes head*

This article isn't blaming it on daddy/mommy issues, nor does it liken mages unto rebellios children.

It uses the narcisstic family model as an analogy, and isn't meant to be taken as literal.

Again, all I ask is that you read it in its entirety with an open mind, and then look at what the author wrote about her own life and how it compares. Your opinion after that is your own. All I ask is that you not dismiss it out of hand.

So you telling me I didn't just read this

Chantry= Narcissistic Mother
Circle = Enabling Father.
Anders= Awakened Child.

Yea. Im pretty sure I just read that overly emotional "Why dont they understand me on the inside" soliloquy. 

Daddy Issue's... check.

[AlexanderCousland]

Plaintiff wrote...

Br3ad wrote...
Mages are conduits of almost limitless power , that can destroy on a whim and can cause terror on the scale of a small army alone. It's not the same as saying that the grandfather clause is wrong. 

I've yet to see any mage in the Dragon Age franchise exhibit such power.

And even if I had, imprisoning people for merely possessing the capacity to do violence is wrong, period.

Punishment comes after the crime, not before.

Here we go with Extreme words...like...Imprisonment.
How about the Mage's who like their lives in the Circle?

[Cainhurst Crow]

Plaintiff wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Forget demons, what about just bad mages who either want to hurt people or simply don't care what using their powers in whatever way they want will do to others?

Those people are why circles exist in the first place, because power can corrupt, and mages have more raw power then anyone else on thedas. It's like why we have laws in the first place, it's all based on the worst actions that people do, not the best ones they do.

We don't put people in prison for having power. The law exists to punish people for their actions, not for existing.

Don't we already put everyone in a prison already? Constant monitoring, warrentless spying, the ability to bar people from leaving their homes, entering peoples dwellings without permission or warrents, and constant requirements people need in order to appease the powers that be? Being expected to obey, without question or discourse, any rule or decree a state makes due to their power to bring great and terrible consequences down on those who violate those rules or decrees? It sounds like the only thing seperating normal life from a prison is the lack of walls and a lack of violence by your peers, and the circles already got that last part down well. If you were to go out and act "out of line" now, a police officer would be allow to come by, arrest you, search you, detain you, and then get permission from higher authorities to search all of your belongings, all while staying within the law.

Prisons are simply the law, taken to a higher extreme of application. Their living conditions determine weather they are assigned spaces for living, designated property that a designated population might have, or a actual prison.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 28 octobre 2013 - 05:13 .

[Silfren]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

The whole issue with mages is probably one of the most interesting takes on it, in that most people don't place x-men ideas into fantasy. But yeah, just like how I feel the mutant and superhuman registration acts are not only fair and reasonable, but pretty good ideas when dealing with people who have the potential to blow up a city block and kill hundreds of people on a whim and can't be disarmed humanely, I feel that the whole "mages should be equal" line a bit unthoughtful.

If you actually sit down and think on things, mages are by their very nature unequal to everyone else. They have access to power that can't be humanely disarmed, have countless abilities to not only threaten countless lives, but be undetectable until they enact their plans, and can only be neutralized by extremely skilled fighters or specially trained knights. They need more restrictions on them then the average person, just like a person who has firearms has more restrictions placed on them then everyone else. A man with a gun could be the most responsible person on the planet, but we would find it insane to allow such a person to bring their gun to, say, a school during a parent teacher conference. Or a church for sunday mass, or a theater to watch a movie, or a mall in order to do some casual shopping. And we would especially have a problem with said gun not being in any sort of case or holster, but just carried around at all times armed and loaded.

We DON'T place extra restrictions on people who own firearms.  We have laws pertaining to the ownership and use of the firearms that can be pretty specific in the particulars of how and when and where and under what circumstances, but we most assuredly do NOT place restrictions on the people who own those firearms.  Not unless and until they commit a crime using said firearm.

Mages cannot be separated from their firearms, it's true.  However, we cannot use the fact of this inability to separate to forget that they are people, too, and are no less deserving of basic rights than anyone else, especially when they haven't committed any crimes with their powers.  And I have seen no evidence proving conclusively that mages are so inherently dangerous and so inevitably predisposed to corruption that they have to be pre-emptively locked up for everyone's good, no evidence that free mages can and will only ever lead to Tevinter.  Enough free mages interact freely with their fellows to show that such a thing IS possible.

Modifié par Silfren, 28 octobre 2013 - 05:24 .

[Plaintiff]

FreshIstay wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Br3ad wrote...
Mages are conduits of almost limitless power , that can destroy on a whim and can cause terror on the scale of a small army alone. It's not the same as saying that the grandfather clause is wrong. 

I've yet to see any mage in the Dragon Age franchise exhibit such power.

And even if I had, imprisoning people for merely possessing the capacity to do violence is wrong, period.

Punishment comes after the crime, not before.

Here we go with Extreme words...like...Imprisonment.
How about the Mage's who like their lives in the Circle?

It's not "extreme", it's exactly the right word for the situation. They are being held in captivity; they're imprisoned. Their situation fits the literal dictionary definition. Whether or not they "like" it is irrelevent to that fact.

Some inmates feel safer in their cells than they do in the outside world. Some hostage victims experience Stockholm Syndrome and develop affection for their kidnappers. Zoo animals are, by all accounts, well cared for and enjoy the company of their human keepers.

It's all still imprisonment.

If an individual mage likes being imprisoned, then they can stay that way. That doesn't make it okay to keep imprisoning the ones that want out. What an absurd line of reasoning.

"Some black people like being segregated, so obviously we shouldn't integrate our schools, because that would be unfair to them."

"Some gay people don't want to be married, so obviously we shouldn't let any of them get married."

"Some women like being stay-at-home mothers, so we shouldn't let any of them have jobs."

Modifié par Plaintiff, 28 octobre 2013 - 05:24 .

[Dabrikishaw]

Plaintiff wrote...

I don't expect the issue to ever be resolved.

[AlexanderCousland]

Plaintiff wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

CynicalShep wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I don't expect the issue to ever be resolved.

And since the entire crux of the conflict is that the Templars want to prevent the Mages from having an 'equal footing', I don't see how such a thing can ever be found.

Mages can't have equal footing by default. They'll either be opressed or opress.

That is complete and utter nonsense. There is always another way.

In an ideal world, yes. But from a logical stand point, it will most likely never happen for the reasons that it has enver worked before. 

Except all the times that minority groups have been given equal rights.

It is not 'logical' to roll over and accept ignorance just because it happens to be the majority opinion.

People who are inherently different from eachother do not have the same rights, In any world.
People in this world (or at least on my side of it) almost have the same liberties but most certainly don't have the same rights. No one should rollover in the face of injustice, however, "Down with the System" mentality never works.

[Plaintiff]

FreshIstay wrote...
People who are inherently different from eachother do not have the same rights, In any world.

So what? Just because it isn't the case doesn't mean it shouldn't be.

What does it mean to be "inherently" different? Are women "inherently" different from men? Are blacks "inherently" different from whites? Are gays "inherently" different from straight people?

Explain this to me, I really want to know.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 28 octobre 2013 - 05:30 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

Silfren wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

The whole issue with mages is probably one of the most interesting takes on it, in that most people don't place x-men ideas into fantasy. But yeah, just like how I feel the mutant and superhuman registration acts are not only fair and reasonable, but pretty good ideas when dealing with people who have the potential to blow up a city block and kill hundreds of people on a whim and can't be disarmed humanely, I feel that the whole "mages should be equal" line a bit unthoughtful.

If you actually sit down and think on things, mages are by their very nature unequal to everyone else. They have access to power that can't be humanely disarmed, have countless abilities to not only threaten countless lives, but be undetectable until they enact their plans, and can only be neutralized by extremely skilled fighters or specially trained knights. They need more restrictions on them then the average person, just like a person who has firearms has more restrictions placed on them then everyone else. A man with a gun could be the most responsible person on the planet, but we would find it insane to allow such a person to bring their gun to, say, a school during a parent teacher conference. Or a church for sunday mass, or a theater to watch a movie, or a mall in order to do some casual shopping. And we would especially have a problem with said gun not being in any sort of case or holster, but just carried around at all times armed and loaded.

We DON'T place extra restrictions on people who own firearms.  We have laws pertaining to the ownership and use of the firearms that can be pretty specific in the particulars of how and when and where and under what circumstances, but we most assuredly do NOT place restrictions on the people who own those firearms.  Not unless and until they commit a crime using said firearm.

Mages cannot be separated from their firearms, it's true.  However, we cannot use the fact of this inability to separate to forget that they are people, too, and are no less deserving of basic rights than anyone else, especially when they haven't committed any crimes with their powers.  And I have seen no evidence proving conclusively that mages are so inherently dangerous and so inevitably predisposed to corruption that they have to be pre-emptively locked up for everyone's good, no evidence that free mages can and will only ever lead to Tevinter.  Enough free mages interact freely with their fellows to show that such a thing IS possible.

Where exactly are these free mage examples of yours? Cause most of the mages we seemed to run into who weren't with the circle, were extremly dangerous and evil(morrigan and flemeth), with a already strict social order with their own form of regulation and enforced rules(Dalish), or were just plain crazy blood mages.

And I would argue that there is conclusive evidence that regular people are just as dangerous and prone to corruption as mages are, and mages are as suseptible to falling into these traps as regular people are. Reasonable suspicion and probable cause wouldn't exist if people already weren't capable of being less then upstandingly behaved, and so it stands to reason that with mages being the same as regular people, they to are at risk. But unlike a normal person, who can be disarmed, or restrained, without much effort, mages cannot be disarmed, and can but up a much more powerful fight resisting then a regular person can. They are more dangerous because of those two factors, and should be looked at as such.

[Plaintiff]

Who says that Morrigan is evil?

[TEWR]

Plaintiff wrote...

Who says that Morrigan is evil?

Well you see, the fact that Morrigan wants to preserve the soul of the Old God that was fought in the Blight, and also have it free of the taint, obviously makes her evil.

Plus she says people could call the DR blood magic, and nothing good ever came of blood magic.

*shrugs*

[HiroVoid]

Well, she did approve of letting the girl in Honnalaeth getting possessed by a demon.

[n7stormrunner]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Who says that Morrigan is evil?

Well you see, the fact that Morrigan wants to preserve the soul of the Old God that was fought in the Blight, and also have it free of the taint, obviously makes her evil.

Plus she says people could call the DR blood magic, and nothing good ever came of blood magic.

*shrugs*

how does that make her obviously evil? and said blood magic may be use to save the life of a men she loves how can that be evil, when it appears to do no harm to anyone.?

[HiroVoid]

n7stormrunner wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Who says that Morrigan is evil?

Well you see, the fact that Morrigan wants to preserve the soul of the Old God that was fought in the Blight, and also have it free of the taint, obviously makes her evil.

Plus she says people could call the DR blood magic, and nothing good ever came of blood magic.

*shrugs*

how does that make her obviously evil? and said blood magic may be use to save the life of a men she loves how can that be evil, when it appears to do no harm to anyone.?

He was being sarcastic.  Morrigan's not evil, but she also has a history of putting her ambitions above everything else which can of course lead to interesting conflicts.

[Inquisitor Recon]

Plaintiff wrote...
What does it mean to be "inherently" different? Are women "inherently" different from men? Are blacks "inherently" different from whites? Are gays "inherently" different from straight people?
Explain this to me, I really want to know.

Well yeah, a difference is a difference even if it is as minor as skin color.