211 réponses à ce sujet

[Fast Jimmy]

Plaintiff wrote...

Bioware doesn't use Varric's narration as an excuse to negate aspects of the plot, though. Only other posters do that, and in fact, they're wrong to do so.

Varric's story involves encounters with other well-known figures, including, for those who played Sebastian's DLC, Leliana, who Cassandra speaks to immediately after interviewing Varric. If Varric was outright lying, it would be easy enough to deduce.

It is entirely likely that Varric's tale was 95% truth, with just a hint of 5% fiction in there.

The problem is that because of the lack of clarity (except when Casandra calls Varric out), Bioware could retroactively make any part of the story (aside from your own example of Leliana/the Nightengale) different and just say "Varric lies."

It's a huge backdoor to remaking any piece of information if they so desire. Just like saying the DA:O epilogue slides are more rumors than fact or canonical... it basically says "believe everything we say... until we suddenly contradict ourselves. Then we're telling you the REAL story!" Which is, understandably, leading some players to perceive some parts of the narrative as a bait and swithc.

[ziloe]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Bioware doesn't use Varric's narration as an excuse to negate aspects of the plot, though. Only other posters do that, and in fact, they're wrong to do so.

Varric's story involves encounters with other well-known figures, including, for those who played Sebastian's DLC, Leliana, who Cassandra speaks to immediately after interviewing Varric. If Varric was outright lying, it would be easy enough to deduce.

It is entirely likely that Varric's tale was 95% truth, with just a hint of 5% fiction in there.

The problem is that because of the lack of clarity (except when Casandra calls Varric out), Bioware could retroactively make any part of the story (aside from your own example of Leliana/the Nightengale) different and just say "Varric lies."

It's a huge backdoor to remaking any piece of information if they so desire. Just like saying the DA:O epilogue slides are more rumors than fact or canonical... it basically says "believe everything we say... until we suddenly contradict ourselves. Then we're telling you the REAL story!" Which is, understandably, leading some players to perceive some parts of the narrative as a bait and swithc.

True or not, I do like the idea that it is indeed Varric's embellishments that alter the appearances of Flemeth, etc.

[Pawlem]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Who says that Morrigan is evil?

Well i say that she is extremely selfish and cruel she likes when other suffer and is stupid evil and try convince us to not helping or damaging others without purpose even if that would help us add to this her manipulations and bit*** to almost every character in game . Only thing why protected her from being slain as another evil minion is that she was in hero (well villain if we desire) party. 

Why is it that most people who say Morrigan is evil have broken grammar and express questionable extremities. It seems as though they are the ones invokng hate, or something.  

Rolling Flame wrote...

Reznore57 wrote...
But after DA2, it's just really hard to trust both sides .Templars and mages were abusing their powers at every corner.

The devs have stated that Kirkwall was an extreme situation for both sides, so hopefully we'll be dealing with some cooler heads that don't play their Strawman imagery completely straight.

Yes, agreed.

On the subject questionable extremities, I think a lot of people are forgetting that Kirkwall's case was extreme. Tensions were already high as both mages and templars prepared for what they saw was an inevitable war ( Meredith's plan to wipe out the mages,Orisno's blood mage research,arming mages). Anders was trying to prove this and took it a bit too damn personally. Fereldan did not have this big of a problem. I don't think it's safe to assume yet that every other place in the world is going to be a definite choice of either mage or templar. 

[Massa FX]

There are good and evil on both sides. For me, I want to bridge the gap between the two sides and find a way that both exist.

Some Templar's are unreasonable and racist.
Some Mage's are corrupt and weak to demon possession.

I'm hoping the conflict can be resolved without taking a definitive side. I'll be happy to wait for DA:I (even it's it years out) that allows for a neutral conflict resolution. Especially if it's difficult to attain that stance. Lot's of replayability there.

[iResonate]

Xilizhra wrote...

And yet we know so very little about Flemeth and for all we know, she was once a perfectly normal human mage woman who found a way to exploit her abilities for her own gain.

Witch Hunt makes it reasonably clear that she isn't.

Corypheus is also a part of a larger group of mages who murdered hundreds of slaves and used blood magic, to tear open the veil and walk through the black city causing the release of the darkspawn.

The bodyhopping you mentioned is a taint power; the archdemon can do the same thing, and it has nothing directly to do with mages.

Quentin wasn't so much unusual. But the fact remains that he brought the dead back to life, from something that died long ago. A spell that was very much unlike a resurrection spell because such spells wouldn't work on someone who had died months before. Just think what could have been, had Hawke not stopped him at all.

He had to use a living head to make it work, and the body just fell over after he died. Of course, had he actually been able to bring back the dead, it would have been utterly amazing.

And no, hulking monsters aren't that rare, but after all we'd fought for, Orsino caused me to lose faith in our cause. And it's at that point that I just wanted to say, "**** it, you're on your own."

He's just one guy. There's a whole Gallows left of people to defend.

The real question is - why a "slavery, oppressive, prison, horribad, evil, Tranquilizing, genociding" group like the Chantry... ever allowed mages to learn violent talents in the first place.

They're useful weapons. See the qunari and Blights.

And then there's Avernus (if you let him live anyway), who has conducted TONS of research during his extended lifetime (which is a huge feat BTW). Who knows what he can do? 

And I wouldn't be surprised if BioWare puts another Catalyst-like plot device for this conflict.

Modifié par iResonate, 29 octobre 2013 - 08:24 .

[nightscrawl]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

It is entirely likely that Varric's tale was 95% truth, with just a hint of 5% fiction in there.

The problem is that because of the lack of clarity (except when Casandra calls Varric out), Bioware could retroactively make any part of the story (aside from your own example of Leliana/the Nightengale) different and just say "Varric lies."

It's a huge backdoor to remaking any piece of information if they so desire. Just like saying the DA:O epilogue slides are more rumors than fact or canonical... it basically says "believe everything we say... until we suddenly contradict ourselves. Then we're telling you the REAL story!" Which is, understandably, leading some players to perceive some parts of the narrative as a bait and swithc.

This is precisely my problem with it. Of course while actually playing the game it doesn't seem false because Varric's narration is a small part of the experience. When thinking about it afterward, the perception that Bioware can use it as a "backdoor to remaking any piece of information" leads to the feeling of "why did I bother?"

Then I eventually forget all that and do another play because I find the game entertaining. Which I suppose is the whole point. So... *shrug*.

[ziloe]

nightscrawl wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

It is entirely likely that Varric's tale was 95% truth, with just a hint of 5% fiction in there.

The problem is that because of the lack of clarity (except when Casandra calls Varric out), Bioware could retroactively make any part of the story (aside from your own example of Leliana/the Nightengale) different and just say "Varric lies."

It's a huge backdoor to remaking any piece of information if they so desire. Just like saying the DA:O epilogue slides are more rumors than fact or canonical... it basically says "believe everything we say... until we suddenly contradict ourselves. Then we're telling you the REAL story!" Which is, understandably, leading some players to perceive some parts of the narrative as a bait and swithc.

This is precisely my problem with it. Of course while actually playing the game it doesn't seem false because Varric's narration is a small part of the experience. When thinking about it afterward, the perception that Bioware can use it as a "backdoor to remaking any piece of information" leads to the feeling of "why did I bother?"

Then I eventually forget all that and do another play because I find the game entertaining. Which I suppose is the whole point. So... *shrug*.

I just can't play DA2. On top of my DAO saves not uploading properly, I just can't help but feel the combat is terribly tedious. I didn't ever find the combat so much as a challenge, but more so constantly asking myself, when is it over?

On the other hand, I can still play DAO years later, and love every bit of it.

[dragonflight288]

ziloe wrote...

nightscrawl wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

It is entirely likely that Varric's tale was 95% truth, with just a hint of 5% fiction in there.

The problem is that because of the lack of clarity (except when Casandra calls Varric out), Bioware could retroactively make any part of the story (aside from your own example of Leliana/the Nightengale) different and just say "Varric lies."

It's a huge backdoor to remaking any piece of information if they so desire. Just like saying the DA:O epilogue slides are more rumors than fact or canonical... it basically says "believe everything we say... until we suddenly contradict ourselves. Then we're telling you the REAL story!" Which is, understandably, leading some players to perceive some parts of the narrative as a bait and swithc.

This is precisely my problem with it. Of course while actually playing the game it doesn't seem false because Varric's narration is a small part of the experience. When thinking about it afterward, the perception that Bioware can use it as a "backdoor to remaking any piece of information" leads to the feeling of "why did I bother?"

Then I eventually forget all that and do another play because I find the game entertaining. Which I suppose is the whole point. So... *shrug*.

I just can't play DA2. On top of my DAO saves not uploading properly, I just can't help but feel the combat is terribly tedious. I didn't ever find the combat so much as a challenge, but more so constantly asking myself, when is it over?

On the other hand, I can still play DAO years later, and love every bit of it.

*shrug* The game structure of either game isn't for everyone. In the DA2 threads, I spoke with people who refused to play Origins because they thought the combat was too slow, and simply wanted to get into the action, and others shared your opinion.

I play both games. I prefer Origins over DA2, but I still replay DA2 every now and then.

[ziloe]

dragonflight288 wrote...

ziloe wrote...

nightscrawl wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

It is entirely likely that Varric's tale was 95% truth, with just a hint of 5% fiction in there.

The problem is that because of the lack of clarity (except when Casandra calls Varric out), Bioware could retroactively make any part of the story (aside from your own example of Leliana/the Nightengale) different and just say "Varric lies."

It's a huge backdoor to remaking any piece of information if they so desire. Just like saying the DA:O epilogue slides are more rumors than fact or canonical... it basically says "believe everything we say... until we suddenly contradict ourselves. Then we're telling you the REAL story!" Which is, understandably, leading some players to perceive some parts of the narrative as a bait and swithc.

This is precisely my problem with it. Of course while actually playing the game it doesn't seem false because Varric's narration is a small part of the experience. When thinking about it afterward, the perception that Bioware can use it as a "backdoor to remaking any piece of information" leads to the feeling of "why did I bother?"

Then I eventually forget all that and do another play because I find the game entertaining. Which I suppose is the whole point. So... *shrug*.

I just can't play DA2. On top of my DAO saves not uploading properly, I just can't help but feel the combat is terribly tedious. I didn't ever find the combat so much as a challenge, but more so constantly asking myself, when is it over?

On the other hand, I can still play DAO years later, and love every bit of it.

*shrug* The game structure of either game isn't for everyone. In the DA2 threads, I spoke with people who refused to play Origins because they thought the combat was too slow, and simply wanted to get into the action, and others shared your opinion.

I play both games. I prefer Origins over DA2, but I still replay DA2 every now and then.

If DA2's combat didn't drag on, I think I would have enjoyed it a lot more.  

[ziloe]

Massa FX wrote...

There are good and evil on both sides. For me, I want to bridge the gap between the two sides and find a way that both exist.

Some Templar's are unreasonable and racist.
Some Mage's are corrupt and weak to demon possession.

I'm hoping the conflict can be resolved without taking a definitive side. I'll be happy to wait for DA:I (even it's it years out) that allows for a neutral conflict resolution. Especially if it's difficult to attain that stance. Lot's of replayability there.

Exactly. Even so, just like the new ending for ME3, there needs to be one to walk away, to say no, I'm not giving into your bull**** any longer.

[Boiny Bunny]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Silfren wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...

in·her·ent (n-hîrnt, -hr-)
adj.
Existing as an essential constituent or characteristic; intrinsic

dif·fer·ent (dfr-nt, dfrnt)
adj.
1. Unlike in form, quality, amount, or nature; dissimilar

Well black skin is a characteristic and it is unlike white skin.

So I'd say their skin colors are inherently different.

Holy f*ck, are you being deliberately obtuse here, or do you honestly not get it?

Oh, I understand your argument. I am just showing you that there are holes in your argument, like your reliance on the term inherently different. It can certainly be proven that men and women are inherently different. It can be shown that the average Joe and mages are inherently different. They all have characteristics that are different from each others, even if it's as simple as a different skin tone or access to magical powers.

I'm failing to see what your point is, other than attempting an obscenely specific definition of the phrase 'inherently different', and derailing the thread to boot.

Let me put this to you.  Men and women.  Forget about whether or not they are 'inherently different'.  Throughout history (recent times are certainly no exception), men have abused women using their (generally) larger/stronger bodies - murder, rape, forcing servitude, etc. - it's a long list.

Although the majority of men in the world today are probably good people who would never abuse their 'power' in such a way, we should obviously lock them all up for life in towers, where they can train one another to manage their 'masculine urges' - right?  Noble female guards could watch over them, and strike any down that looked as if they might be tempted to 'abuse' their power.  Tracking chips would be injected into them to make sure that they were easy to hunt down, should one of them ever escape.  And of course, we could release them (on leashes of course) to fight our wars whenever necessary.  

Doesn't that sound like a great system?

[Note: sarcasm may be contained in the above]

Modifié par Boiny Bunny, 29 octobre 2013 - 11:20 .

[Fast Jimmy]

ziloe wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Bioware doesn't use Varric's narration as an excuse to negate aspects of the plot, though. Only other posters do that, and in fact, they're wrong to do so.

Varric's story involves encounters with other well-known figures, including, for those who played Sebastian's DLC, Leliana, who Cassandra speaks to immediately after interviewing Varric. If Varric was outright lying, it would be easy enough to deduce.

It is entirely likely that Varric's tale was 95% truth, with just a hint of 5% fiction in there.

The problem is that because of the lack of clarity (except when Casandra calls Varric out), Bioware could retroactively make any part of the story (aside from your own example of Leliana/the Nightengale) different and just say "Varric lies."

It's a huge backdoor to remaking any piece of information if they so desire. Just like saying the DA:O epilogue slides are more rumors than fact or canonical... it basically says "believe everything we say... until we suddenly contradict ourselves. Then we're telling you the REAL story!" Which is, understandably, leading some players to perceive some parts of the narrative as a bait and swithc.

True or not, I do like the idea that it is indeed Varric's embellishments that alter the appearances of Flemeth, etc.

There is, undeniably, benefit to the player as well on this. I've seen the idea put forth that Hawke was a fiction Varric made up, spinning stories while in Kirkwall as well as to Cassandra about a hero to cover his own tracks and misdeeds. Interesting to think about (and even plausible if you didn't participate in the Exiled Prince DLC), but the difference here is this:

A back door for players to do headcanon is not nearly as dangerous as a backdoor for writers to undo what players have done without any type of recourse. Not to say Bioware would, but it leaves the player open to a very huge risk of feeling betrayed. If that makes sense.

[Fast Jimmy]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Silfren wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...

in·her·ent (n-hîrnt, -hr-)
adj.
Existing as an essential constituent or characteristic; intrinsic

dif·fer·ent (dfr-nt, dfrnt)
adj.
1. Unlike in form, quality, amount, or nature; dissimilar

Well black skin is a characteristic and it is unlike white skin.

So I'd say their skin colors are inherently different.

Holy f*ck, are you being deliberately obtuse here, or do you honestly not get it?

Oh, I understand your argument. I am just showing you that there are holes in your argument, like your reliance on the term inherently different. It can certainly be proven that men and women are inherently different. It can be shown that the average Joe and mages are inherently different. They all have characteristics that are different from each others, even if it's as simple as a different skin tone or access to magical powers.

I'm failing to see what your point is, other than attempting an obscenely specific definition of the phrase 'inherently different', and derailing the thread to boot.

Let me put this to you.  Men and women.  Forget about whether or not they are 'inherently different'.  Throughout history (recent times are certainly no exception), men have abused women using their (generally) larger/stronger bodies - murder, rape, forcing servitude, etc. - it's a long list.

Although the majority of men in the world today are probably good people who would never abuse their 'power' in such a way, we should obviously lock them all up for life in towers, where they can train one another to manage their 'masculine urges' - right?  Noble female guards could watch over them, and strike any down that looked as if they might be tempted to 'abuse' their power.  Tracking chips would be injected into them to make sure that they were easy to hunt down, should one of them ever escape.  And of course, we could release them (on leashes of course) to fight our wars whenever necessary.  

Doesn't that sound like a great system?

[Note: sarcasm may be contained in the above]

This is a TERRIBLE comparison.

By sheer accident or weak will, a man could not kill dozens of women. A Mage, completely accidentally (through either improper control of their magic OR through possession) could kill dozens of others. 

To say "a man has a marginally higher amount of muscle mass than a woman, therefore he is a threat to the world" isn't even anywhere NEAR the same ballpark as "a person born with a fluke of biology can light people on fire with a thought or be possessed by a bloodthristy demon with one minute of letting down their guard."

You're not even trying.

[Boiny Bunny]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

This is a TERRIBLE comparison.

By sheer accident or weak will, a man could not kill dozens of women. A Mage, completely accidentally (through either improper control of their magic OR through possession) could kill dozens of others. 

To say "a man has a marginally higher amount of muscle mass than a woman, therefore he is a threat to the world" isn't even anywhere NEAR the same ballpark as "a person born with a fluke of biology can light people on fire with a thought or be possessed by a bloodthristy demon with one minute of letting down their guard."

You're not even trying.

You're completely ignoring the fact that Thedas is a world of extremes compared to our own.  True - a crazy/possessed/evil mage could easily kill 12 innocent villagers - but a crazy/evil templar could do just the same, and almost as easily.  To imagine the body count from a real world man with (say) a sword next to the analogue in Thedas is an utterly bogus comparison.

Besides which - the body count shouldn't be as relevant as you're making it out to be.  One person dead is not as bad as twelve people dead, but is still an exceptionally negative outcome, which should averted if possible.  What we're really talking about here is one group of people who are born with some form of 'power', giving them the ability to abuse other people who are born without it.  The reason for them using such power (possession, insanity, anger, lust, arrogance, desire, stupidity, etc.) becomes irrelevant in the aftermath - all that matters in the end are the statistics.  There are plenty of those - an enormous trail of dead/raped women who would have been much better off had all of the men in the world been locked up in towers since birth.

I am still being partly sarcastic.  Just trying to make the point that (rather appropriately given the thread title), it's not quite as black and white as 'they have power and CAN kill others --> they must be locked up for life without choice'.

Modifié par Boiny Bunny, 29 octobre 2013 - 11:54 .

[ziloe]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

This is a TERRIBLE comparison.

By sheer accident or weak will, a man could not kill dozens of women. A Mage, completely accidentally (through either improper control of their magic OR through possession) could kill dozens of others. 

To say "a man has a marginally higher amount of muscle mass than a woman, therefore he is a threat to the world" isn't even anywhere NEAR the same ballpark as "a person born with a fluke of biology can light people on fire with a thought or be possessed by a bloodthristy demon with one minute of letting down their guard."

You're not even trying.

You're completely ignoring the fact that Thedas is a world of extremes compared to our own.  True - a crazy/possessed/evil mage could easily kill 12 innocent villagers - but a crazy/evil templar could do just the same, and almost as easily.  To imagine the body count from a real world man with (say) a sword next to the analogue in Thedas is an utterly bogus comparison.

Besides which - the body count shouldn't be as relevant as you're making it out to be.  One person dead is not as bad as twelve people dead, but is still an exceptionally negative outcome, which should averted if possible.  What we're really talking about here is one group of people who are born with some form of 'power', giving them the ability to abuse other people who are born without it.  The reason for them using such power (possession, insanity, anger, lust, arrogance, desire, stupidity, etc.) becomes irrelevant in the aftermath - all that matters in the end are the statistics.  There are plenty of those - an enormous trail of dead/raped women who would have been much better off had all of the men in the world been locked up in towers since birth.

I am still being partly sarcastic.  Just trying to make the point that (rather appropriately given the thread title), it's not quite as black and white as 'they have power and CAN kill others --> they must be locked up for life without choice'.

Though your analogy is a nice take on it, I think I much prefer Gaider's. At least I think it was him who said it was similar to a man with a gun and a man with a gun attached to him that he could never let go of. The latter being something that he may have little control of, in the chance of misfire, etc. 

If someone has the direct quote, I think that would help a lot more, given that I'm not feeling too fantastic as I write this. Just getting over a cold and still headache-y. ;;

[ziloe]

bump

[ziloe]

Slow night.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Why is it that most people who say Morrigan is evil have broken grammar and express questionable extremities. It seems as though they are the ones invokng hate, or something.  

But she is evil nothing more nothing less take her from our party and peoples will say that she is one of the baddies.Well anyway her attitude is here well described.

http://www.escapistm...pproval-Ratings


 

[KainD]

This topic is like:

A murder happened a few days ago. Some people think that the murderer should be prosecuted, some believe that the murder was justified, and that the murderer shouldn't be punished.
I would like to remain neutral, and would like for both sides to fight over the case with each other, or find some equal footing, maybe partly prosecute the murderer, maybe partly let him go.

[ziloe]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Why is it that most people who say Morrigan is evil have broken grammar and express questionable extremities. It seems as though they are the ones invokng hate, or something.  

But she is evil nothing more nothing less take her from our party and peoples will say that she is one of the baddies.Well anyway her attitude is here well described.

http://www.escapistm...pproval-Ratings


 

She's not evil. She's a pragmatist. We have so many bigger problems, so when suddenly we decide to save say... a bundle of kittens, to her it's a waste of time.

Having romanced her through a couple of my major playthroughs, I've found that she's actually very different from what most percieve, like that person in the article who didn't take her anywhere he wasn't forced to. For most of her life, she's had to learn to be self reliant. Especially because most people, including her mother, only see her as a tool to be used. And in that, it's kind of tragic, knowing that your own mother only raised you so that she could steal your body and live an even longer life. So no wonder she's the way she is, and in that, I don't see her as an evil person at all.

[dragonflight288]

ziloe wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Why is it that most people who say Morrigan is evil have broken grammar and express questionable extremities. It seems as though they are the ones invokng hate, or something.  

But she is evil nothing more nothing less take her from our party and peoples will say that she is one of the baddies.Well anyway her attitude is here well described.

http://www.escapistm...pproval-Ratings


 

She's not evil. She's a pragmatist. We have so many bigger problems, so when suddenly we decide to save say... a bundle of kittens, to her it's a waste of time.

Having romanced her through a couple of my major playthroughs, I've found that she's actually very different from what most percieve, like that person in the article who didn't take her anywhere he wasn't forced to. For most of her life, she's had to learn to be self reliant. Especially because most people, including her mother, only see her as a tool to be used. And in that, it's kind of tragic, knowing that your own mother only raised you so that she could steal your body and live an even longer life. So no wonder she's the way she is, and in that, I don't see her as an evil person at all.

The warden who romances her, but refuses to break up with her when she requests it because of her growing emotional dependency on the Warden gets to see a side of Morrigan she has never, ever let anyone see before.

It's especially poignant when Morrigan is pleading, almost begging in tears to be released from the relationship because she's so scared about caring for him as she has absolutely no experience with caring for or from others.
She simply doesn't know how to react because she's come to expect that everyone wants something of her, and when given a gift for the sake of being given a gift, it completely throws her off because she had no idea such charity even existed before.

[TheKomandorShepard]

ziloe wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Why is it that most people who say Morrigan is evil have broken grammar and express questionable extremities. It seems as though they are the ones invokng hate, or something.  

But she is evil nothing more nothing less take her from our party and peoples will say that she is one of the baddies.Well anyway her attitude is here well described.

http://www.escapistm...pproval-Ratings


 

She's not evil. She's a pragmatist. We have so many bigger problems, so when suddenly we decide to save say... a bundle of kittens, to her it's a waste of time.

Having romanced her through a couple of my major playthroughs, I've found that she's actually very different from what most percieve, like that person in the article who didn't take her anywhere he wasn't forced to. For most of her life, she's had to learn to be self reliant. Especially because most people, including her mother, only see her as a tool to be used. And in that, it's kind of tragic, knowing that your own mother only raised you so that she could steal your body and live an even longer life. So no wonder she's the way she is, and in that, I don't see her as an evil person at all.

Pragmatic lol read text in my link.She isn't pragmatic she is stupid evil pragmatic person would spare mages for sake gaining ally she was very eager to kill them for nothing profit none cost lost ally also pragmatic person knows that helping others may be beneficial (flemeth do that) her protests when we helping others even if thats only for sake benefit or future benefit simply disqualify her as person practical if you want see one play planescape torment. 

And now you give me excuse because she had tough childhood and im fine with that but psychopath with tough childhood is still psychopath (thats example) and such things are used to make evil characters more sympathetic.

She is extremely selfish , power hungry ,enjoys the misfortune of others and is bit*** to the point when you aren't just as**** only pri*** only thing most don't treats her like arl howe or any other insane blood mage who do bad thigs because they are pri*** is that she is in our party.

To be honest she reminds me hk-47 and since then i can't recall any other companion who encouraged do makes other lifes miserable (i may be wrong) just because and hk-47 was for laughs not serious character unlike morrigan.

[ziloe]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

ziloe wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Why is it that most people who say Morrigan is evil have broken grammar and express questionable extremities. It seems as though they are the ones invokng hate, or something.  

But she is evil nothing more nothing less take her from our party and peoples will say that she is one of the baddies.Well anyway her attitude is here well described.

http://www.escapistm...pproval-Ratings


 

She's not evil. She's a pragmatist. We have so many bigger problems, so when suddenly we decide to save say... a bundle of kittens, to her it's a waste of time.

Having romanced her through a couple of my major playthroughs, I've found that she's actually very different from what most percieve, like that person in the article who didn't take her anywhere he wasn't forced to. For most of her life, she's had to learn to be self reliant. Especially because most people, including her mother, only see her as a tool to be used. And in that, it's kind of tragic, knowing that your own mother only raised you so that she could steal your body and live an even longer life. So no wonder she's the way she is, and in that, I don't see her as an evil person at all.

Pragmatic lol read text in my link.She isn't pragmatic she is stupid evil pragmatic person would spare mages for sake gaining ally she was very eager to kill them for nothing profit none cost lost ally also pragmatic person knows that helping others may be beneficial (flemeth do that) her protests when we helping others even if thats only for sake benefit or future benefit simply disqualify her as person practical if you want see one play planescape torment. 

And now you give me excuse because she had tough childhood and im fine with that but psychopath with tough childhood is still psychopath (thats example) and such things are used to make evil characters more sympathetic.

She is extremely selfish , power hungry ,enjoys the misfortune of others and is bit*** to the point when you aren't just as**** only pri*** only thing most don't treats her like arl howe or any other insane blood mage who do bad thigs because they are pri*** is that she is in our party.

To be honest she reminds me hk-47 and since then i can't recall any other companion who encouraged do makes other lifes miserable (i may be wrong) just because and hk-47 was for laughs not serious character unlike morrigan.

Yes. I read your link, and I disagree. While I agree that she's self serving, I don't see that as evil. 

I saw her take no pleasure in the negative options, unless you take that as her "approval" rating, which in reality is her just happy that you see her reasoning behind it, and not that she takes pleasure in it.

Take the templar for instance, being posessed by the demon. For once, he was happy. The life of a templar doesn't always allow such pleasures, so by killing the demon, you actually take that away from him, and in that, she sympathizes. Doing so definitely seems to me as an act of empathy, something evil characters rarely, if ever show. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

ziloe wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

ziloe wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Why is it that most people who say Morrigan is evil have broken grammar and express questionable extremities. It seems as though they are the ones invokng hate, or something.  

But she is evil nothing more nothing less take her from our party and peoples will say that she is one of the baddies.Well anyway her attitude is here well described.

http://www.escapistm...pproval-Ratings


 

She's not evil. She's a pragmatist. We have so many bigger problems, so when suddenly we decide to save say... a bundle of kittens, to her it's a waste of time.

Having romanced her through a couple of my major playthroughs, I've found that she's actually very different from what most percieve, like that person in the article who didn't take her anywhere he wasn't forced to. For most of her life, she's had to learn to be self reliant. Especially because most people, including her mother, only see her as a tool to be used. And in that, it's kind of tragic, knowing that your own mother only raised you so that she could steal your body and live an even longer life. So no wonder she's the way she is, and in that, I don't see her as an evil person at all.

Pragmatic lol read text in my link.She isn't pragmatic she is stupid evil pragmatic person would spare mages for sake gaining ally she was very eager to kill them for nothing profit none cost lost ally also pragmatic person knows that helping others may be beneficial (flemeth do that) her protests when we helping others even if thats only for sake benefit or future benefit simply disqualify her as person practical if you want see one play planescape torment. 

And now you give me excuse because she had tough childhood and im fine with that but psychopath with tough childhood is still psychopath (thats example) and such things are used to make evil characters more sympathetic.

She is extremely selfish , power hungry ,enjoys the misfortune of others and is bit*** to the point when you aren't just as**** only pri*** only thing most don't treats her like arl howe or any other insane blood mage who do bad thigs because they are pri*** is that she is in our party.

To be honest she reminds me hk-47 and since then i can't recall any other companion who encouraged do makes other lifes miserable (i may be wrong) just because and hk-47 was for laughs not serious character unlike morrigan.

Yes. I read your link, and I disagree. While I agree that she's self serving, I don't see that as evil. 

I saw her take no pleasure in the negative options, unless you take that as her "approval" rating, which in reality is her just happy that you see her reasoning behind it, and not that she takes pleasure in it.

Take the templar for instance, being posessed by the demon. For once, he was happy. The life of a templar doesn't always allow such pleasures, so by killing the demon, you actually take that away from him, and in that, she sympathizes. Doing so definitely seems to me as an act of empathy, something evil characters rarely, if ever show. 

LoL x2 then you have very twisted morality if her supporting genocide because well she have such desire and was just stupid action that cost us allies as well her other stupid evil advices and behavior hmm we helped merchant to make other peoples suffer what morrigan enjoyed but no no thats not everything now you can take reward or just kill him for laugh and gain nothing even more lost reward guess what morrigan approve?

In templar case what is wrong and what is right was dependent on your morality some peoples would see allowing demon sucking him up for few moment of false happiness and then find another victims as right choice or killing demon as right.Morrigan and empathy if that only in pc case that only case she shows empathy to no one non to peoples in lothering non to mages in tower and any other person and especially for her enemies templars.And now use my link again and see last picture "are you doing that in good way or bad way" and im sure that morrigan in templar case saw that in bad way.      

[ziloe]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

ziloe wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

ziloe wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Why is it that most people who say Morrigan is evil have broken grammar and express questionable extremities. It seems as though they are the ones invokng hate, or something.  

But she is evil nothing more nothing less take her from our party and peoples will say that she is one of the baddies.Well anyway her attitude is here well described.

http://www.escapistm...pproval-Ratings


 

She's not evil. She's a pragmatist. We have so many bigger problems, so when suddenly we decide to save say... a bundle of kittens, to her it's a waste of time.

Having romanced her through a couple of my major playthroughs, I've found that she's actually very different from what most percieve, like that person in the article who didn't take her anywhere he wasn't forced to. For most of her life, she's had to learn to be self reliant. Especially because most people, including her mother, only see her as a tool to be used. And in that, it's kind of tragic, knowing that your own mother only raised you so that she could steal your body and live an even longer life. So no wonder she's the way she is, and in that, I don't see her as an evil person at all.

Pragmatic lol read text in my link.She isn't pragmatic she is stupid evil pragmatic person would spare mages for sake gaining ally she was very eager to kill them for nothing profit none cost lost ally also pragmatic person knows that helping others may be beneficial (flemeth do that) her protests when we helping others even if thats only for sake benefit or future benefit simply disqualify her as person practical if you want see one play planescape torment. 

And now you give me excuse because she had tough childhood and im fine with that but psychopath with tough childhood is still psychopath (thats example) and such things are used to make evil characters more sympathetic.

She is extremely selfish , power hungry ,enjoys the misfortune of others and is bit*** to the point when you aren't just as**** only pri*** only thing most don't treats her like arl howe or any other insane blood mage who do bad thigs because they are pri*** is that she is in our party.

To be honest she reminds me hk-47 and since then i can't recall any other companion who encouraged do makes other lifes miserable (i may be wrong) just because and hk-47 was for laughs not serious character unlike morrigan.

Yes. I read your link, and I disagree. While I agree that she's self serving, I don't see that as evil. 

I saw her take no pleasure in the negative options, unless you take that as her "approval" rating, which in reality is her just happy that you see her reasoning behind it, and not that she takes pleasure in it.

Take the templar for instance, being posessed by the demon. For once, he was happy. The life of a templar doesn't always allow such pleasures, so by killing the demon, you actually take that away from him, and in that, she sympathizes. Doing so definitely seems to me as an act of empathy, something evil characters rarely, if ever show. 

LoL x2 then you have very twisted morality if her supporting genocide because well she have such desire and was just stupid action that cost us allies as well her other stupid evil advices and behavior hmm we helped merchant to make other peoples suffer what morrigan enjoyed but no no thats not everything now you can take reward or just kill him for laugh and gain nothing even more lost reward guess what morrigan approve?

In templar case what is wrong and what is right was dependent on your morality some peoples would see allowing demon sucking him up for few moment of false happiness and then find another victims as right choice or killing demon as right.Morrigan and empathy if that only in pc case that only case she shows empathy to no one non to peoples in lothering non to mages in tower and any other person and especially for her enemies templars.And now use my link again and see last picture "are you doing that in good way or bad way" and im sure that morrigan in templar case saw that in bad way.      

I believe David Gaider wrote a really nice article on Morrigan awhile back. I'll see if I can dig it up, unless someone else fings it before I do, which would be great.