211 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

The problem with calling any companion in DA:O (or any other BioWare RPG) good or evil is that the majority of time they can profess a specific viewpoint, but they only act on the player's say-so.

My Morrigan helped me save a village from a zombie invasion. Does saving a bunch of people make her good? She also suggested we let them die. Is suggesting we leave people to die evil? If I decide to side with the werewolves and wipe out the Dalish, does Morrigan approving of that action make her move evil than Wynne who disapproves but is still willing to help me slaughter an entire clan?


There are other NPCs where we can judge them by their previous actions, but Morrigan's past was 'I lived in a swamp and occasionally killed Templars who would have killed me.'

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 02 novembre 2013 - 07:17 .

[ziloe]

Pawlem wrote...

ziloe wrote...

This is not a normal childhood by the least. So for someone like my characters, who was for all intents a good guy, to break through that armour she's built to survive all this time, it's actually kind of sweet once she finally opens up to you.

It is. That is is why I prefer her to Leliana. Heck, just got to the point in the relationship  in my playthrough where she's showing her fear of love. 

It'll be interesting to see how her more 'human' role in DA:I will play out if she romanced the warden in DA:O.

Yes, I'm definitely excited to see how that plays out. Even further, it would be nice to see my Warden as well, even if he's just babysitting, haha.

[TheKomandorShepard]

ziloe wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Eee we gain her approval for helping him in being di*** and she is amused because we kicked mob and then you suggesting than she started care about mob and despise merchant for actions she was supporting and i thought that leliana is crazy. 

No, as I said, she is fine with the merchant's actions, but doesn't care for the man himself. She thinks anybody with the merchant's goods would be well within their rights to sell them for high profits, but she is not impressed by the merchant himself. He's a weakling playing at being a bigshot, so killing him would be amusing, but ultimately not detrimental to the Warden's cause.

Which pretty much confirms what i said and that she is stupid evil and thats just small example she is fine with telling mob to get lost for money okey we take money and we are glad thats what sane "evil" person will do and killing him is meaningless and cost warden payment yet she supports that option what isn't pragmatic only stupid evil and harming option.

Again. That's not "evil". And to further the point, good and evil is subjective. Maybe if you played the game through a different perspective, you might actually like Morrigan.

Ok I will slit your parents throats and then i will burn you alive just because now im evil (that wasn't threat if someone will take that seriously only example)?And whether i like her it doesn't matter because i like her but i don't trust her and friendship with such peoples like her are toxic.

ziloe wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

LOLandStuff wrote...

I blame growing up in the middle of a swamp for the way she acts.

You're
actually right about that.  It's also why she's pretty bad at
interacting with people too.  As far as world experience as a whole
goes, she's probably the least knowledgable though she obviously grew up
in a unique world experience.

Exactly. 

And
this all comes back to the point of this topic. Everything is not all
black and white. She has a reason in the way she is. It's not just oh,
I'm like this because I am. She's lived and learned from an insane,
mysterious old woman who hangs insignificant trespassers from trees, to
ward wanderers away. 

This is not a normal childhood by the
least. So for someone like my characters, who was for all intents a good
guy, to break through that armour she's built to survive all this time,
it's actually kind of sweet once she finally opens up to you.

As i said psychopath with bad childhood is still psychopath and it is only excuse now we can blame parents and environment and thats right but he is still psychopath.
Morrigan attitude here http://tvtropes.org/...Main/StupidEvil

[ziloe]

Are you really just going to continue using parody and extremes to prove your point? Just because TVtropes has something on it, doesn't mean it's an actual thing now.

Second. Morrigan is not a psychopath, though, I think you meant sociopath, and even then you'd be wrong since sociopaths can't feel, and she can fall in love. Still, as I said earlier, it's clear you're already stuck on this idea of her and there's really no point trying to convince you otherwise.

[TheKomandorShepard]

ziloe wrote...

Are you really just going to continue using parody and extremes to prove your point? Just because TVtropes has something on it, doesn't mean it's an actual thing now.

Second. Morrigan is not a psychopath, though, I think you meant sociopath, and even then you'd be wrong since sociopaths can't feel, and she can fall in love. Still, as I said earlier, it's clear you're already stuck on this idea of her and there's really no point trying to convince you otherwise.

again missed point i stated previously that was example that even if you had bad childhood and you are running on the street and snap peoples neck you are still psycho and hardly that makes you better than doing that same without bad childhood.

Not only tvtropes states that and that is in case try protect her she is stupid evil and is failed attempt pragmatic companion simple and it isn't idea only facts and i delivered examples when you tryied convince me that she isn't evil when it comes about decisions she probably don't have single approval for helping someone who isn't di** or making other happy and her approval grows when you are helping di** or even more kill everyone for crap.  

[Pawlem]

ziloe wrote...

Pawlem wrote...

ziloe wrote...

This is not a normal childhood by the least. So for someone like my characters, who was for all intents a good guy, to break through that armour she's built to survive all this time, it's actually kind of sweet once she finally opens up to you.

It is. That is is why I prefer her to Leliana. Heck, just got to the point in the relationship  in my playthrough where she's showing her fear of love. 

It'll be interesting to see how her more 'human' role in DA:I will play out if she romanced the warden in DA:O.

Yes, I'm definitely excited to see how that plays out. Even further, it would be nice to see my Warden as well, even if he's just babysitting, haha.

Indeed, and by the sound of it I think Bioware can pull it off with the Warden. Very excited. Especially since this will sort of be a story about Morrigan.  

Adding to how she'll be in DA:I: “Yes. The various states that Morrigan can be in – of which there can be quite a few, because we don’t know when to stop when it comes to making decisions – they’re all recognized. " Gaider says, and -that- definitely makes me excited. 

[TK514]

Since when is "I'm a terrible person who only approves when you do terrible things to others" suddenly 'ok' just because someone had a bad parent?

She's not an idiot, nor is she completely inexperienced with the way people live outside the swamp.  And by the time she says some of the things she does, up to and including abandoning the world to the Darkspawn if she doesn't get her way, she's been travelling with and experiencing non-swamp dwelling hags for a year.

this isn't a simple case of, "Oh, I lived such a sheltered life I didn't know you had to pay for stuff".  This is a pretty clear case of "I don't care about anyone but myself, and to a much much lesser extent maybe someone I consider important...unless they don't do what I tell them, in which case they suck and the world can burn."

Heaven forbid you don't murder an old woman, who saved your life and sent her only daughter with you to save the world, based on absolutely no proof whatsoever.

And decide maybe making a potential super baby and leaving it to be raised in isolation by the completely selfish and unrepentant misanthrope is not a good idea?  You and everyone else can die, she wouldn't spit on you if you were on fire, much less help you save the world.

Sorry, I'm not buying 'Mommy was mean' as an excuse for giving her a pass on her behaviour.

Modifié par TK514, 03 novembre 2013 - 03:15 .

[ziloe]

TK514 wrote...

Since when is "I'm a terrible person who only approves when you do terrible things to others" suddenly 'ok' just because someone had a bad parent?

She's not an idiot, nor is she completely inexperienced with the way people live outside the swamp.  And by the time she says some of the things she does, up to and including abandoning the world to the Darkspawn if she doesn't get her way, she's been travelling with and experiencing non-swamp dwelling hags for a year.

this isn't a simple case of, "Oh, I lived such a sheltered life I didn't know you had to pay for stuff".  This is a pretty clear case of "I don't care about anyone but myself, and to a much much lesser extent maybe someone I consider important...unless they don't do what I tell them, in which case they suck and the world can burn."

Heaven forbid you don't murder an old woman, who saved your life and sent her only daughter with you to save the world, based on absolutely no proof whatsoever.

And decide maybe making a potential super baby and leaving it to be raised in isolation by the completely selfish and unrepentant misanthrope is not a good idea?  You and everyone else can die, she wouldn't spit on you if you were on fire, much less help you save the world.

Sorry, I'm not buying 'Mommy was mean' as an excuse for giving her a pass on her behaviour.

While potentially true, it doesn't make her "evil", which was really just the point I was getting at. And if you romance her, she softens up a bit as well.

[Schneidend]

TK514 wrote...

Show compassion towards someone or something that isn't Morrigan: Morrigan disapproves -20
Show even the slightest doubt in Morrigan's directives: Morrigan disapproves -12
Act like a total ****** towards anyone that isn't Morrigan: Morrigan approves +5
Do something nice for Morrigan: Morrigan approves +20

So she's basically a sadistic ten year old. "Pragmatism" (aka being a ******) is great as long as you aren't applying it to her, because then it's terrible.

as for the OP, I tried to be neutral in DA 2.  Walking away was my preferred choice.  

I'd love it if DA:I restored that choice as a viable one.  It'd be nice to find a third group of Mages and Templars willing to work together and solve the global problem instead of following the elvish path and letting the world burn down rather than compromise.

then I could let the idiots exemplified in Fiona and Lambert wipe each other out.

Why would anyobdy approve of people being ruthless/pragmatic to them? That usually involves being insulted, dismissed, robbed, harmed, left for dead, or even killed? Considering how large the approval scale is, moves of -5 or +5 should be interpreted not as jubilation or a visible hissy fit, but them reacting with the thought of "neat" or "jerk/idiot." It's folly to think "Morrigan disapproves -3" equates to her freaking out and smashing stuff with her staff in the midst of a berserker rage.

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Which pretty much confirms what i said and that she is stupid evil and thats just small example she is fine with telling mob to get lost for money okey we take money and we are glad thats what sane "evil" person will do and killing him is meaningless and cost warden payment yet she supports that option what isn't pragmatic only stupid evil and harming option.

Killing people that are weaker than you are isn't necessarily stupid evil. While it isn't reflected in game, if you killed him, you could just take all of his gold and goods. Sounds fairly practical to me.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Schneidend wrote...

Killing people that are weaker than you are isn't necessarily stupid evil. While it isn't reflected in game, if you killed him, you could just take all of his gold and goods. Sounds fairly practical to me.

Killing mages for ****s when we needs allies is stupid evil as well her encouraging to kick your allies or abandon them just for sake being evil bi*** , sure you can just stab them in the back if you don't need them , stoping blight isn't your goal or just you don't need them anymore or even think that mages are dangerous but her reason is "lets go be pri*** and kill them all".

So in practice every option that is evil and super dic*** even if stupid she will like it every act of helping person who isn't psycho or cause suffering of many even if purely practical will cause her disapproval.

[ziloe]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

Killing people that are weaker than you are isn't necessarily stupid evil. While it isn't reflected in game, if you killed him, you could just take all of his gold and goods. Sounds fairly practical to me.

Killing mages for ****s when we needs allies is stupid evil as well her encouraging to kick your allies or abandon them just for sake being evil bi*** , sure you can just stab them in the back if you don't need them , stoping blight isn't your goal or just you don't need them anymore or even think that mages are dangerous but her reason is "lets go be pri*** and kill them all".

So in practice every option that is evil and super dic*** even if stupid she will like it every act of helping person who isn't psycho or cause suffering of many even if purely practical will cause her disapproval.

Something tells me you've never actually used Morrigan beyond what you had to, or even romanced her.

[TheKomandorShepard]

ziloe wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

Killing people that are weaker than you are isn't necessarily stupid evil. While it isn't reflected in game, if you killed him, you could just take all of his gold and goods. Sounds fairly practical to me.

Killing mages for ****s when we needs allies is stupid evil as well her encouraging to kick your allies or abandon them just for sake being evil bi*** , sure you can just stab them in the back if you don't need them , stoping blight isn't your goal or just you don't need them anymore or even think that mages are dangerous but her reason is "lets go be pri*** and kill them all".

So in practice every option that is evil and super dic*** even if stupid she will like it every act of helping person who isn't psycho or cause suffering of many even if purely practical will cause her disapproval.

Something tells me you've never actually used Morrigan beyond what you had to, or even romanced her.

Well to be honest i befriend her at least when i play good guys (lol) but she stays in camp for most of time once i romanced her and few times when i played as villain she hated me (lolx2) because i was super di*** for her and she wants respect.But still i used her when i played anti-hero or villain and i provided examples so i can say that i know every morrigan side.  

[ziloe]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

ziloe wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

Killing people that are weaker than you are isn't necessarily stupid evil. While it isn't reflected in game, if you killed him, you could just take all of his gold and goods. Sounds fairly practical to me.

Killing mages for ****s when we needs allies is stupid evil as well her encouraging to kick your allies or abandon them just for sake being evil bi*** , sure you can just stab them in the back if you don't need them , stoping blight isn't your goal or just you don't need them anymore or even think that mages are dangerous but her reason is "lets go be pri*** and kill them all".

So in practice every option that is evil and super dic*** even if stupid she will like it every act of helping person who isn't psycho or cause suffering of many even if purely practical will cause her disapproval.

Something tells me you've never actually used Morrigan beyond what you had to, or even romanced her.

Well to be honest i befriend her at least when i play good guys (lol) but she stays in camp for most of time once i romanced her and few times when i played as villain she hated me (lolx2) because i was super di*** for her and she wants respect.But still i used her when i played anti-hero or villain and i provided examples so i can say that i know every morrigan side.  

And there in lies the
problem. You associate her with evil, because you play evil characters and only
bring her along when you do such things. So, no wonder you don’t see any good
in her!

[TheKomandorShepard]

ziloe wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

ziloe wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

Killing people that are weaker than you are isn't necessarily stupid evil. While it isn't reflected in game, if you killed him, you could just take all of his gold and goods. Sounds fairly practical to me.

Killing mages for ****s when we needs allies is stupid evil as well her encouraging to kick your allies or abandon them just for sake being evil bi*** , sure you can just stab them in the back if you don't need them , stoping blight isn't your goal or just you don't need them anymore or even think that mages are dangerous but her reason is "lets go be pri*** and kill them all".

So in practice every option that is evil and super dic*** even if stupid she will like it every act of helping person who isn't psycho or cause suffering of many even if purely practical will cause her disapproval.

Something tells me you've never actually used Morrigan beyond what you had to, or even romanced her.

Well to be honest i befriend her at least when i play good guys (lol) but she stays in camp for most of time once i romanced her and few times when i played as villain she hated me (lolx2) because i was super di*** for her and she wants respect.But still i used her when i played anti-hero or villain and i provided examples so i can say that i know every morrigan side.  

And there in lies the
problem. You associate her with evil, because you play evil characters and only
bring her along when you do such things. So, no wonder you don’t see any good
in her!

Well when i was playing anti-hero and when it is open term anti-hero doesn't have to be "evil" and you take good decisions or be more pragmatic but good devisions mostly are causing her disapproval and that was reason why i didn't take her as good character which basically being nice for your companions = friendship but don't take morrigan with you. 

[ziloe]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

ziloe wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

ziloe wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

Killing people that are weaker than you are isn't necessarily stupid evil. While it isn't reflected in game, if you killed him, you could just take all of his gold and goods. Sounds fairly practical to me.

Killing mages for ****s when we needs allies is stupid evil as well her encouraging to kick your allies or abandon them just for sake being evil bi*** , sure you can just stab them in the back if you don't need them , stoping blight isn't your goal or just you don't need them anymore or even think that mages are dangerous but her reason is "lets go be pri*** and kill them all".

So in practice every option that is evil and super dic*** even if stupid she will like it every act of helping person who isn't psycho or cause suffering of many even if purely practical will cause her disapproval.

Something tells me you've never actually used Morrigan beyond what you had to, or even romanced her.

Well to be honest i befriend her at least when i play good guys (lol) but she stays in camp for most of time once i romanced her and few times when i played as villain she hated me (lolx2) because i was super di*** for her and she wants respect.But still i used her when i played anti-hero or villain and i provided examples so i can say that i know every morrigan side.  

And there in lies the
problem. You associate her with evil, because you play evil characters and only
bring her along when you do such things. So, no wonder you don’t see any good
in her!

Well when i was playing anti-hero and when it is open term anti-hero doesn't have to be "evil" and you take good decisions or be more pragmatic but good devisions mostly are causing her disapproval and that was reason why i didn't take her as good character which basically being nice for your companions = friendship but don't take morrigan with you. 

You're focusing far too much on the approval rating, which doesn't even necessarily reflect what you mean. It's exactly why they tried to improve it in the following DA2, and will continue to improve upon it in Inquisition.

[Schneidend]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...


Killing mages for ****s when we needs allies is stupid evil as well her encouraging to kick your allies or abandon them just for sake being evil bi*** , sure you can just stab them in the back if you don't need them , stoping blight isn't your goal or just you don't need them anymore or even think that mages are dangerous but her reason is "lets go be pri*** and kill them all".

So in practice every option that is evil and super dic*** even if stupid she will like it every act of helping person who isn't psycho or cause suffering of many even if purely practical will cause her disapproval.

Actually, Morrigan is okay with killing the Circle Mages because she thinks they're weak and stupid for allowing themselves to be in the Circle at all. So weak, in fact, that they'd be useless in our very dire campaign. And, no, she doesn't enjoy suffering. If people are dying or in pain, she would rather you kill them then let them linger on being pathetic.

[ziloe]

Schneidend wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...


Killing mages for ****s when we needs allies is stupid evil as well her encouraging to kick your allies or abandon them just for sake being evil bi*** , sure you can just stab them in the back if you don't need them , stoping blight isn't your goal or just you don't need them anymore or even think that mages are dangerous but her reason is "lets go be pri*** and kill them all".

So in practice every option that is evil and super dic*** even if stupid she will like it every act of helping person who isn't psycho or cause suffering of many even if purely practical will cause her disapproval.

Actually, Morrigan is okay with killing the Circle Mages because she thinks they're weak and stupid for allowing themselves to be in the Circle at all. So weak, in fact, that they'd be useless in our very dire campaign. And, no, she doesn't enjoy suffering. If people are dying or in pain, she would rather you kill them then let them linger on being pathetic.

Exactly. Not to mention there barely being anyone left outside of the few at the top or with Wynne.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Schneidend wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...


Killing mages for ****s when we needs allies is stupid evil as well her encouraging to kick your allies or abandon them just for sake being evil bi*** , sure you can just stab them in the back if you don't need them , stoping blight isn't your goal or just you don't need them anymore or even think that mages are dangerous but her reason is "lets go be pri*** and kill them all".

So in practice every option that is evil and super dic*** even if stupid she will like it every act of helping person who isn't psycho or cause suffering of many even if purely practical will cause her disapproval.

Actually, Morrigan is okay with killing the Circle Mages because she thinks they're weak and stupid for allowing themselves to be in the Circle at all. So weak, in fact, that they'd be useless in our very dire campaign. And, no, she doesn't enjoy suffering. If people are dying or in pain, she would rather you kill them then let them linger on being pathetic.

Ok so killing peoples because they are weaker than you isn't evil ok i kill you and your family because you are weaker ohh i m such good person now i understand that joker was good person wasn't evil he was just killing peoples who are weaker i found enlightenment.

ziloe wrote...

You're focusing far too much on the
approval rating, which doesn't even necessarily reflect what you mean.
It's exactly why they tried to improve it in the following DA2, and will
continue to improve upon it in Inquisition.

approval says with what character agrees or not so in practice if you want to kill someone and alistair don't like it he lost his approval unless you convince him that killing this person is not bad decision he may don't like it but understand that is best option then you may save approval or even gain that.

Now feel like i was talking to sociopaths "no she isn't evil she just kills peoples because they are weaker perfectly normal i do that every saturday and jason voorhees is my idol"

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 03 novembre 2013 - 07:01 .

[Schneidend]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...


Ok so killing peoples because they are weaker than you isn't evil ok i kill you and your family because you are weaker ohh i m such good person now i understand that joker was good person wasn't evil he was just killing peoples who are weaker i found enlightenment.

I never argued that Morrigan wasn't evil, only the term Stupid Evil, which RPG players bandy about and try to apply it to every character they happen to dislike.

[HiroVoid]

Schneidend wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...


Killing mages for ****s when we needs allies is stupid evil as well her encouraging to kick your allies or abandon them just for sake being evil bi*** , sure you can just stab them in the back if you don't need them , stoping blight isn't your goal or just you don't need them anymore or even think that mages are dangerous but her reason is "lets go be pri*** and kill them all".

So in practice every option that is evil and super dic*** even if stupid she will like it every act of helping person who isn't psycho or cause suffering of many even if purely practical will cause her disapproval.

Actually, Morrigan is okay with killing the Circle Mages because she thinks they're weak and stupid for allowing themselves to be in the Circle at all. So weak, in fact, that they'd be useless in our very dire campaign. And, no, she doesn't enjoy suffering. If people are dying or in pain, she would rather you kill them then let them linger on being pathetic.

Yeah....I'm disputing this.  Is this just your personal interpretation or something she mentions?  Everything I remember about that scene to me just seems to imply that she thinks its what they deserve for letting themselves be chained.

[Schneidend]

HiroVoid wrote...

Yeah....I'm disputing this.  Is this just your personal interpretation or something she mentions?  Everything I remember about that scene to me just seems to imply that she thinks its what they deserve for letting themselves be chained.

Her argument is that they're weak and stupid for being there, and so they deserve to be there. If they're so weak and stupid as to bow to the whims of men in metal suits, how much use could they be against an inhuman enemy that does not take prisoners? It is a personal interpretation, but it's not exactly a massive leap, and the textual evidence is supportive of it.

[HiroVoid]

Schneidend wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

Yeah....I'm disputing this.  Is this just your personal interpretation or something she mentions?  Everything I remember about that scene to me just seems to imply that she thinks its what they deserve for letting themselves be chained.

Her argument is that they're weak and stupid for being there, and so they deserve to be there. If they're so weak and stupid as to bow to the whims of men in metal suits, how much use could they be against an inhuman enemy that does not take prisoners? It is a personal interpretation, but it's not exactly a massive leap, and the textual evidence is supportive of it.

I disagree with that since her argument is more one of contempt for allowing themselves to continue to be caged.  She's saying their weak in will and mind for never standing up rather than in the power of their magic.

[Lokiwithrope]

I can't help but think of a brain when I see this thread's title.

[ziloe]

HiroVoid wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

Yeah....I'm disputing this.  Is this just your personal interpretation or something she mentions?  Everything I remember about that scene to me just seems to imply that she thinks its what they deserve for letting themselves be chained.

Her argument is that they're weak and stupid for being there, and so they deserve to be there. If they're so weak and stupid as to bow to the whims of men in metal suits, how much use could they be against an inhuman enemy that does not take prisoners? It is a personal interpretation, but it's not exactly a massive leap, and the textual evidence is supportive of it.

I disagree with that since her argument is more one of contempt for allowing themselves to continue to be caged.  She's saying their weak in will and mind for never standing up rather than in the power of their magic.

That's really the same thing. The way I see it, the other guy is only adding flavour to this exact sentiment. 

[TK514]

ziloe wrote...

While potentially true, it doesn't make her "evil", which was really just the point I was getting at. And if you romance her, she softens up a bit as well.

What?  How is leaving your allies, and potentially a city full of people and beyond, to die because you don't get your way NOT evil?  

Had ad she been merely angry with the Waprden and said "I'll help stop the Blight, but after that we're done", you might have a point.  She's selfish and angry there, but at least thinking of others.  She doesn't.  If you tell her no, she completely abandons Denerim and your party to the Darkspawn, and if the city dies and the World suffers, too bad.  Her wants are all that matters.  This is the case, even if romanced.