1331 réponses à ce sujet

[Allan Schumacher]

I am asking that people please leave the personal baggage from previous interactions with various posters out of this thread.

i.e. the snippy pot shots some of you are taking because you've come to blows in previous threads.

[Mr.House]

You can still be a hero and not survive to tell the tale. The notion that a hero must survive and ride off is a fabrication created by people who outright despise even the single hint of sadness.

[Xilizhra]

I didn't want to wade into the discussion, but I think you and Dave are talking at a bit of a cross-purpose. If someone has a very pragmatic and utilitarian morality - and the basic reality of the game world is that any attempt to save everyone, no matter what, always suceeds - there are no actual satisfying in Bioware-style games.

Why would morally good choices automatically not synchronize with pragmatism? They frequently do in ME. Therein lies the difference between pragmatism and expediency.

To be fair, we actually don't know that. We still don't know the ultimate consequences of several central choices in the Dragon Age series. Moreover, heroism can be subjective in this world. Some people can choose to reject the Dark Ritual for what are, to them, heroic reasons. Others can accept it for different reasons and still believe their reasons are heroic, in their own way. (And, of course, this is one of the choices whose consequences we still don't know.)

Arguably, to be sure, but certainly there's nothing forbidding anyone from being as heroic as possible.

I don't want them to exist

Then you're screwing over my playthrough for the sake of an option you wouldn't even take, and that hardly seems fair.

You can still be a hero and not
survive to tell the tale. The notion that a hero must survive and ride
off is a fabrication created by people who outright despise even the
single hint of sadness.

It's possible for a hero to die. It shouldn't be guaranteed.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 31 octobre 2013 - 05:45 .

[In Exile]

Mr.House wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

Do happy endings with heroism even fit the DA setting?

Closest thing I'd say is the Redeemer ending for DA:O.

That and US where DAOs best endings. I don't think anyone wants me to do another rant about the ritual, or worse. Alistair.

I dunno, it gets messy. Because of the way the actual choices you make in stopping the blight. If you had to pick w/o considering any other choices, yeah, US and Reedemer are more heroic... but the actual treaty quest choices could really shift that balance. 

[Xilizhra]

In Exile wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

Do happy endings with heroism even fit the DA setting?

Closest thing I'd say is the Redeemer ending for DA:O.

That and US where DAOs best endings. I don't think anyone wants me to do another rant about the ritual, or worse. Alistair.

I dunno, it gets messy. Because of the way the actual choices you make in stopping the blight. If you had to pick w/o considering any other choices, yeah, US and Reedemer are more heroic... but the actual treaty quest choices could really shift that balance. 

And I also consider the DR to be the most heroic option.

[Xilizhra]

Every ending is at best bitter sweet. Especially taking in some choices

I saw my ending as quite happy with no real downside.

Again, bitter sweet.

How? Amaranthine is saved and Vigil held out.

If you consider a bunch of Harvesters escaping into the world a "good" ending.

Still a better outcome than what would have happened had we not gone in, and everyone comes out alive.

DA2 ends with a massive civil war starting, the 'hero' missing, and no one knows what to do to solve the problem.

I felt triumphant enough at the end. Having saved enough mages to be qualified as "many," and bringing my whole party out alive.

[Allan Schumacher]

Pseudocognition wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

It may be obvious.  For some people it may not be (I know some people couldn't save both).

For others, maybe they'd prefer it to be less obvious.

bit of a tangent but i'm not sure there's an effective degree of 'not obvious' for players who are accustomed to game cues. meaning I'm not sure there's a way to make things less obvious but not to the point of being obtuse.

Perhaps an analysis of the game cues would be in order, so as to better mask/utilize them to bring attention in the ways that maybe are less clear?

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 31 octobre 2013 - 05:48 .

[AresKeith]

Xilizhra wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

Do happy endings with heroism even fit the DA setting?

Closest thing I'd say is the Redeemer ending for DA:O.

That and US where DAOs best endings. I don't think anyone wants me to do another rant about the ritual, or worse. Alistair.

I dunno, it gets messy. Because of the way the actual choices you make in stopping the blight. If you had to pick w/o considering any other choices, yeah, US and Reedemer are more heroic... but the actual treaty quest choices could really shift that balance. 

And I also consider the DR to be the most heroic option.

How?

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
Why would morally good choices automatically not synchronize with pragmatism? They frequently do in ME. Therein lies the difference between pragmatism and expediency.

A lot of choices in ME are very risky, IMO, but to list them would derail the thread. 

[In Exile]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Talking about video game writing, and heroic versus nonheroic (inversion or even subversion) stories. I commented that I though DA ][ did a decent job of providing a story (not necessarily the combat experience) that underscored your helplessness as a character. Or helplessness might be too strong--just that you couldn't quite save the world.

I'll take a look!

[TiaraBlade]

Not a fan personally. I like having the possibility of a "golden" ending where it's mostly happy. You may have to work hard for it but the possibility was there.

To do pretty much everything right yet have only those two choices at the end of the game would leave a bad taste in my mouth, i.e. why did I even bother? DA:O avoids this with the god baby escape as well as having a second warden to take the hit.

I doubt BW would go the route of the choices noted by the OP; too much chance of reigniting another ending controversy ala ME3.

[Mr.House]

Xilizhra wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

Do happy endings with heroism even fit the DA setting?

Closest thing I'd say is the Redeemer ending for DA:O.

That and US where DAOs best endings. I don't think anyone wants me to do another rant about the ritual, or worse. Alistair.

I dunno, it gets messy. Because of the way the actual choices you make in stopping the blight. If you had to pick w/o considering any other choices, yeah, US and Reedemer are more heroic... but the actual treaty quest choices could really shift that balance. 

And I also consider the DR to be the most heroic option.

How in Azura is doing a sex ritual with a witch who refuses to tell you naything with a person who has royal blood unless you have a male warden that is not human with the soul of an old god in charge of a woman who in the past has proven to lie to oyu and use you. That is not heroic. Slaying the archdemon and assuring the threat of the this blight is gone for good is not only heroic, it's smart.

[Xilizhra]

How?

Accomplishing the otherwise seemingly unprecedented feat of saving an Old God from the Blight. Also preventing another soul from being annihilated.

How in Azura is doing a sex ritual with a witch who refuses to tell you
naything with a person who has royal blood unless you have a male warden
that is not human with the soul of an old god in charge of a woman who
in the past has proven to lie to oyu and use you. That is not heroic.
Slaying the archdemon and assuring the threat of the this blight is gone
for good is not only heroic, it's smart.

Untainted Old Gods have nothing to do with the Blight. And I trust Morrigan; our friendship is strong enough.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 31 octobre 2013 - 05:51 .

[wolfhowwl]

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't want them to exist

Then you're screwing over my playthrough for the sake of an option you wouldn't even take, and that hardly seems fair.

What do you mean when you say "optimal path?"

Modifié par wolfhowwl, 31 octobre 2013 - 05:50 .

[Allan Schumacher]

to the parts where the writers {pardon me Allan} came up with a frankly poorly written and executed concept that simply makes no sense within the realms of biology, logic, or meta-ethics as well as blatantly violating and contradicting not only established lore, but basic scientific laws of physics.

Just as a note, stating that you felt the writing was poor and that you had issues with it in the reasonably respectful way you did is fine. No need to pardon yourself (though the gesture is appreciated)

[In Exile]

[

Morocco Mole wrote...
Every ending is at best bitter sweet. Especially taking in some choices.

I thought the DR ending was all sweet and no bitter. I mean, there was a kind of blindside betrayal from Morrigan's plotting you couldn't react to, but the "track her down" option kind of tries to handle that. And I thought WH gets rid of any real issues from that.

Again, bitter sweet.

I think fully upgrading Vigil and saving Amaranthine pretty much gets you all sweet. 

Agree with you on DA2 entirely though. 

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't want them to exist

Then you're screwing over my playthrough for the sake of an option you wouldn't even take, and that hardly seems fair.

I can't be screwing over your playthrough if you also can't get an "ideal" option.

Everyone gets pros and cons to choices, none have absolutely no negative consequences

[Mr.House]

Xilizhra wrote...

How?

Accomplishing the otherwise seemingly unprecedented feat of saving an Old God from the Blight. Also preventing another soul from being annihilated.

Saving the osul of an old god is not good, let alone letting it be raised by a woman who is a liar and will use it for her own goals you don't know.

[Xilizhra]

wolfhowwl wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't want them to exist

Then you're screwing over my playthrough for the sake of an option you wouldn't even take, and that hardly seems fair.

What do you mean when you say "optimal path?"

Something where I can act in a heroic manner without screwing over the people I'm trying to protect/advance.

Saving the osul of an old god is not good, let alone letting it be
raised by a woman who is a liar and will use it for her own goals you
don't know.

Having not met any Old Gods myself, I can't say for sure how good or evil they are. Given that, I'm going to save what souls I can.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 31 octobre 2013 - 05:52 .

[In Exile]

Mr.House wrote...
How in Azura is doing a sex ritual with a witch who refuses to tell you naything with a person who has royal blood unless you have a male warden that is not human with the soul of an old god in charge of a woman who in the past has proven to lie to oyu and use you. That is not heroic. Slaying the archdemon and assuring the threat of the this blight is gone for good is not only heroic, it's smart.

No, the smart choice is killing it and then being around to kill the other threats to Thedas, like (if you think she's a threat), Morrigan and the infant thing-you-just-killed. 

[Estelindis]

Xilizhra wrote...
I prefer the ending of DA2, in part because your PC is somewhat less screwed at the end than the Warden (vanished with LI, as opposed to just vanished alone). DAO's multiple ending scenario was interesting, to be sure, although sometimes I suspect that too many options just means that fewer things will get imported.

I do sometimes fear that fewer things from DA:O will be imported, but I really hope not.

For the record, I am also happier with DA2's ending, because it was actually possible in this game for my character and her love interest to survive and stay together without anyone else coming between them, which wasn't possible for my DA:O character.  Yet I think that the ending I got to DA:O was better written and overall it has left a much deeper, more lasting impression on me.  I still think with regret about the life I wanted my Warden to have, that she could never have.  I wouldn't have chosen that ending for her...  But I did choose the actions that led to that ending, and I own that choice.

Xilizhra wrote...

I may have multiple playthroughs to determine what said character should be, but in terms of decisions, I don't change things much if at all.

I'm a bit confused here because I can't tell if you metagame your choices here based on what you know your ending will be.  It sounds like you might, because of the multiple playthroughs, but it also sounds like you don't, because you don't change many of your actions.

For me, the un-metagamed playthrough is much richer and more profound than the metagamed one.  It's why I have such an attachment to my heartbreaking DA:O ending, moreso than the happier ending that I actually enjoyed, because my choices had consequences that I didn't expect but which totally made sense in the world the characters inhabited.

Basically, I understand that you like happy endings.  I like happy endings too.  But I think that if you want to get one above all else you might miss out on some of the richness that the world offers.  It's not always a very exciting or interesting experience, storywise, to plan to get a thing... and then to get it, exactly as you intended, with no complications.

Modifié par Estelindis, 31 octobre 2013 - 05:56 .