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[The Flying Grey Warden]

Xilizhra wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't want them to exist

Then you're screwing over my playthrough for the sake of an option you wouldn't even take, and that hardly seems fair.

What do you mean when you say "optimal path?"

Something where I can act in a heroic manner without screwing over the people I'm trying to protect/advance.

I'd be for it being some of the time, but not all of the time. That would be boring.

[Steelcan]

Xilizhra wrote...

wolfhowwl wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't want them to exist

Then you're screwing over my playthrough for the sake of an option you wouldn't even take, and that hardly seems fair.

What do you mean when you say "optimal path?"

Something where I can act in a heroic manner without screwing over the people I'm trying to protect/advance.

And that kind of "everybody wins" path is just a cop out fior what are supposed to be tough choices.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

In Exile wrote...

Mr.House wrote...
How in Azura is doing a sex ritual with a witch who refuses to tell you naything with a person who has royal blood unless you have a male warden that is not human with the soul of an old god in charge of a woman who in the past has proven to lie to oyu and use you. That is not heroic. Slaying the archdemon and assuring the threat of the this blight is gone for good is not only heroic, it's smart.

No, the smart choice is killing it and then being around to kill the other threats to Thedas, like (if you think she's a threat), Morrigan and the infant thing-you-just-killed. 

Flemeth is probably a bigger threat to thedas then an archdemon is. At least there's a way to kill an archdemon for, more or less, good.

[Xilizhra]

For the record, I am also happier with DA2's ending, because it was actually possible in this game for my character and her love interest to survive and stay together without anyone else coming between them, which wasn't possible for me DA:O character. Yet I think that the ending I got to DA:O was better written and overall it has left a much deeper, more lasting impression on me. I still think with regret about the life I wanted my Warden to have, that she could never have. I wouldn't have chosen that ending for her... But I did choose the actions that led to that ending, and I own that choice.

I'm a spoiler hound and don't make choices like that, because I never enjoy failure. It leads only to anger if I knew that I could have made a better choice.

I'm a bit confused here because I can't tell if you metagame your choices here based on what you know your ending will be. It sounds like you might, because of the multiple playthroughs, but it also sounds like you don't, because you don't change many of your actions.

Frequently, I metagame choices before I actually play the game. Although I don't do so for all choices (though I read a lot about ME1 and 2, and DAO, long before I was ever able to play them).

Basically, I understand that you like happy endings. I like happy endings too. But I think that if you want to get one above all else you might miss out on some of the richness that the world offers. It's not always a very exciting or interesting experience, storywise, to plan to get a thing... and then to get it, exactly as you intended, with no complications.

I get past this because I know that my character had a sufficiently difficult and exciting time (somewhat emphasized for me, as I'm not that great at combat).

[Allan Schumacher]

Estelindis wrote...

Quick question.  Do you distinguish here between what you want as a player and what your character wants?  

Presumably, a rational player character will always want the optimal ending - their problems come from not necessarily being able to work out how to get there.  A player may enjoy a suboptimal ending for dramatic reasons, but, again, at least on the initial playthrough, it may not come about on purpose.

Tangential point:  I had never played a game with a divergent narrative before.... Wing Commander!  I was brutal at the game and ultimately had to withdraw from Vega Sector because we lost so much.  I was very much "neat!"  I was okay with the unhappy ending.


Coming back when I was much better at the game, I learned I could push the Kilrathi out.  It made me go "whoa, this game has different endings?  Cool!"

(yes, I acknowledge that one ending is clearly optimal, but I more point out that a player may enjoy a suboptimal ending, even though I was ignorant of a more optimal ending).

[Xilizhra]

I'd be for it being some of the time, but not all of the time. That would be boring.

I'm not bored yet.

[TheBlackBaron]

The US is probably the most traditionally "heroic" ending, but of course that it's highly debatable as to whether it's the "best" ending, not least because you're dead. The state that you've left Ferelden in is another matter to consider (for example, say you were a Dalish warden and won a homeland for your people - now what are you going to be able to do to protect it?).

In the end it comes down to person interpretations and preference, but that's simply another argument for heroic actions leading to unambiguously positive outcomes, I suppose.

[TiaraBlade]

"I haven't played any mass effect games, so don't know from experience, but there was a lot of drama around the ending of me3, I believe, because all the ending options seemed like a 'loss'. If the four flavours of ending in Origins were reversed, I.e. Instead of living in three of the possible endings, you died in them, but otherwise all ended well for the Inquisition, would that be something that players could be happy with (and knowing that the plan is to have a new protagonist each game) and not feel they'd been cheated out of content?"

Without rehashing too much about the ME3 ending, people rebelled against it mostly because:
1. it made the choices you made throughout the 3 games meaningless.
2. came out of nowhere and went against most of the themes of the last three games
3. lack of closure and an incomprehensible "Adam and Eve" ending that makes little scientific sense
4. No true happy ending.

DA:I could have a series of endings that have drama but still avoid the issues above by letting the endings reflect the themes of DA:I and the choices you made. If you do well enough, you can have a golden ending. Not so good and you may have to make the choice to die for what you believe in.

Some players may even enjoy going out like a boss in a blaze of glory and had that been a choice in ME3, i.e. sacrificing yourself yo save the crew of the Normandy, players would have gone with it. Just give us an ending where we see the galaxy rebuilt, Shepherd given a hero's funeral, and perhaps Liara plays with her little blue daughter in the park where Shep's statue stands tall and proud: a symbol of hope, strength, courage, and sacrifice.

Heck, they did something like that in DA:O so Bioware knows how to pull that stuff off.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I strongly disliked the cliffhangerish ending of DA 2 but I think it's possible to see it as Hawke being heroic, depending on how you interpret the events of the finale.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

EntropicAngel wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Flemeth is probably a bigger threat to thedas then an archdemon is. At least there's a way to kill an archdemon for, more or less, good.

I'm pretty sure there's a way to do so for Flemeth as well, we just don't know it yet.

First she managed to make to a body stealing spell, then she managed to create a horocrux, then she had another daughter in antiva in charge of watching dragons or something, as probably another contingency plan, and she probably has a lot more contingencies then that. And that's assuming killing her physically would actually manage to kill her for good, and not release her demonic spirit into the fade to wait for the next tear, and come back.

The fact she has so many failsafe's makes me think she's more dangerous.

[Estelindis]

Xilizhra wrote...
I'm a spoiler hound and don't make choices like that, because I never enjoy failure. It leads only to anger if I knew that I could have made a better choice.

Frequently, I metagame choices before I actually play the game. Although I don't do so for all choices (though I read a lot about ME1 and 2, and DAO, long before I was ever able to play them).

I know that my character had a sufficiently difficult and exciting time (somewhat emphasized for me, as I'm not that great at combat).

Ah. Your posts make so much more sense to me now. Thank you for explaining. All you want is for the option for a happy ending to be in there, so you can reverse engineer it. Ultimately, this isn't at odds with the desire of people like me for a surprising, maybe even shocking first playthrough with potential for many different endings.

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Tangential point:  I had never played a game with a divergent narrative before.... Wing Commander!  I was brutal at the game and ultimately had to withdraw from Vega Sector because we lost so much.  I was very much "neat!"  I was okay with the unhappy ending.

Coming back when I was much better at the game, I learned I could push the Kilrathi out.  It made me go "whoa, this game has different endings?  Cool!"

(yes, I acknowledge that one ending is clearly optimal, but I more point out that a player may enjoy a suboptimal ending, even though I was ignorant of a more optimal ending).

That is really interesting.  Thanks for sharing!  It's nice to see that I'm not alone in enjoying an initial, sub-optimal playthrough, in spite of subsequent playthroughs revealing other ways to play the game.

It does seem, however, that player skill in combat had a much larger role in this case than usually happens in Dragon Age, unless I'm missing something.  It seems to me like most consequence in Dragon Age comes about via conversation options rather than failure to overcome a combat obstacle.  I wonder if this is something anyone feels should change or if people are happy with it.  

Edit: By the way, at this point, I've stayed up most of the night just reading and replying in this single thread - it's been moving so quickly!  I should probably get some sleep, though.  Thanks to everyone for the conversation.  When I wake up, I expect to see another dozen pages at least.  

Modifié par Estelindis, 31 octobre 2013 - 06:05 .

[Allan Schumacher]

I'm a spoiler hound and don't make choices like that, because I never enjoy failure. It leads only to anger if I knew that I could have made a better choice.

This is why some people dislike a clear optimal path.

[TEWR]

and not release her demonic spirit into the fade to wait for the next tear, and come back.

She ain't no demon, abomination, or human -- per Morrigan in Witch Hunt.

And she ain't got nothing on Master Xehanort from Kingdom Hearts.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 31 octobre 2013 - 06:15 .

[AresKeith]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

and not release her demonic spirit into the fade to wait for the next tear, and come back.

She ain't no demon, abomination, or human -- per Morrigan in Witch Hunt.

And she ain't got nothing on Master Xehanort from Kingdom Hearts.

^ This

Semi-confirmed rumor, they're married 

[Mr.House]

Xilizhra wrote...

For the record, I am also happier with DA2's ending, because it was actually possible in this game for my character and her love interest to survive and stay together without anyone else coming between them, which wasn't possible for me DA:O character. Yet I think that the ending I got to DA:O was better written and overall it has left a much deeper, more lasting impression on me. I still think with regret about the life I wanted my Warden to have, that she could never have. I wouldn't have chosen that ending for her... But I did choose the actions that led to that ending, and I own that choice.

I'm a spoiler hound and don't make choices like that, because I never enjoy failure. It leads only to anger if I knew that I could have made a better choice.

I'm a bit confused here because I can't tell if you metagame your choices here based on what you know your ending will be. It sounds like you might, because of the multiple playthroughs, but it also sounds like you don't, because you don't change many of your actions.

Frequently, I metagame choices before I actually play the game. Although I don't do so for all choices (though I read a lot about ME1 and 2, and DAO, long before I was ever able to play them).

Basically, I understand that you like happy endings. I like happy endings too. But I think that if you want to get one above all else you might miss out on some of the richness that the world offers. It's not always a very exciting or interesting experience, storywise, to plan to get a thing... and then to get it, exactly as you intended, with no complications.

I get past this because I know that my character had a sufficiently difficult and exciting time (somewhat emphasized for me, as I'm not that great at combat).

If you make a mistake then reload if you really can't stand it or do a new pt.

[Semi-confirmed Rumor]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I'm a spoiler hound and don't make choices like that, because I never enjoy failure. It leads only to anger if I knew that I could have made a better choice.

This is why some people dislike a clear optimal path.

Indeed, although even in the case of endings that have different but more or less equal outcomes, you'll still probably wind up metagaming for the outcome you think is preferable, either by "cheating" with a guide or simply through prior knowledge on subsequent playthroughs.

That, however, causes less problems than there being a clear best path that can be missed - a la Redcliffe.

AresKeith wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

and not release her demonic spirit into the fade to wait for the next tear, and come back.

She ain't no demon, abomination, or human -- per Morrigan in Witch Hunt.

And she ain't got nothing on Master Xehanort from Kingdom Hearts.

^ This

Semi-confirmed rumor, they're married 

I can confirm this.

Modifié par Semi-confirmed Rumor, 31 octobre 2013 - 06:23 .

[Allan Schumacher]

That is really interesting. Thanks for sharing! It's nice to see that I'm not alone in enjoying an initial, sub-optimal playthrough, in spite of subsequent playthroughs revealing other ways to play the game.

It does seem, however, that player skill in combat had a much larger role in this case than usually happens in Dragon Age, unless I'm missing something. It seems to me like most consequence in Dragon Age comes about via conversation options rather than failure to overcome a combat obstacle. I wonder if this is something anyone feels should change or if people are happy with it.

For sure. Player skill was specifically what drove the narrative in that game. It was just super novel (and hence, interesting) for me when it happened.

Dragon Age has a lot more choices happening within conversations (although we're trying to be more liberal with that in DAI. You can say one thing, but are free to still make anotehr choice if you decide).

[TEWR]

AresKeith wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

and not release her demonic spirit into the fade to wait for the next tear, and come back.

She ain't no demon, abomination, or human -- per Morrigan in Witch Hunt.

And she ain't got nothing on Master Xehanort from Kingdom Hearts.

^ This

Semi-confirmed rumor, they're married 

THE REVEAL.

[Plaintiff]

How does one determine which outcome is the "optimal" one anyway?