1331 réponses à ce sujet

[The Heretic of Time]

David7204 wrote...

Let me get this straight, Hanar. You accuse me of depending on heroism as a 'power fantasy' and then you condemn me for not being invested enough in my characters, to the point of explaining that 'the player character is an extension of the player.' ( What a perfect summery, by the way. I thank you for that. It's usually a bit more work.)  Is that right?

No, that is not right at all. Please read what I actually said and stop trying to create Strawmen arguments (whether you do it on purpose or not).

Anyway, you're welcome. I'm glad I managed to teach you a little bit about RPGs and one of their core elements.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 31 octobre 2013 - 09:30 .

[David7204]

You didn't teach me anything about RPGs. You did heavily support a deduction of mine about people.

[The Heretic of Time]

David7204 wrote...

You didn't teach me anything about RPGs. You did heavily support a deduction of mine about people.

I think I would have taught you plenty of things by now if you actually listened and didn't pretend you know it all, which is quite hilarious if you think about the fact that you barely played any games at all, you haven't even played Dragon Age!

But well, what can I say? You can lead a horse to the water, but you can't force him to drink.


But since you so keenly observed that people indeed do get invested in their RPG characters (note; I am not one of them, at least not with Mass Effect or The Witcher, maybe a little bit with Dragon Age), let me ask you the same question again, and this time just give me an actual answer:

Can you really blame people for getting invested in their characters in a ROLEPLAYING game?

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 31 octobre 2013 - 09:37 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

KainD wrote...
You realise how many different pros and cons have to be factored into the game for that? 

Take DA:O descisions about dalish and Werewolves. What brings us closer to the main goal? Werewolves! Those guys reap everybody to shreads in the last battle, WAY stronger than elf archers. What are the cons? Dead elves? But I don't care about elves! Which means I get the best military might without any cons. Cons are there only if you care about the elves. And every person cares about different things.

I would partially agrre.
While it's true that people care about different things, not caring at all about the death of hunderds is something only mentally unstable people do.

From the perspective of a normal human being capable of empathy, the death of elves is and should be a con.

That doesn't mean that people wouldn't be willing to appect the con - most (if not all) templar players after all do feel sorry for the mages and consider the price of templar victory (mages locked) to be a regretable necessity. So it remains a con - just one you can (or have to) live with.

[Ieldra]

David7204 wrote...
Iedra, I'm using 'heroism' as a tasteful shorthand for competent. Because that frankly sounds dry and doesn't give the concept the justice it deserves. Can we not get bogged down over word choice?

That's not what the term usually means, so this may lead to a lot of misunderstanding. Still, the point still stands. You can make some rather stupid decisions in the ME games for instance, and if you make a sequence of stupid decisions, since the EC that's actually reflected in the kind of ending you get. That doesn't necessarily reflect back on you as the player (though it can if you made those decisions in full ignorance or lead by player's prejudice), but it is still you who make the protagonist into a more or less competent one.

[Dave of Canada]

David7204 wrote...

Iedra, I'm using 'heroism' as a tasteful shorthand for competent. Because that frankly sounds dry and doesn't give the concept the justice it deserves. Can we not get bogged down over word choice?

Perhaps using the correct words would help people understand what you're saying.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 31 octobre 2013 - 10:14 .

[Dermain]

David7204 wrote...

You didn't teach me anything about RPGs. You did heavily support a deduction of mine about people.

Confirmation bias?

David7204 wrote...

Iedra, I'm using 'heroism' as a tasteful shorthand for competent. Because that frankly sounds dry and doesn't give the concept the justice it deserves.

Really? You seem to be using them both seperately here...

David7204 wrote...

Hanar, I think I know the reason why people are so defensive and angry - to the point of fury - when I suggest that heroism and competence don't flow from the player.

David7204 wrote...

 Can we not get bogged down over word choice?

May I suggest using words that have no relation to what you actually mean? It will really solve that problem of people possibly misconstruing what you actually mean.

[Welsh Inferno]

I guess we've finally found something this forum universally agrees on. Disagreeing with everything & anything David says.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Well this seems to have gone predictably were it usually does.

Oh and DA Forum's Clique status confirmed.

[Ieldra]

Welsh Inferno wrote...

I guess we've finally found something this forum universally agrees on. Disagreeing with everything & anything David says.

I disagree

[The Heretic of Time]

Welsh Inferno wrote...

I guess we've finally found something this forum universally agrees on. Disagreeing with everything & anything David says.

I don't necessarily disagree with everything and anything David says, I just disagree with bullcrap in general. It just so happens to be that David's comments are 99% nonsensical bullcrap.

[Dormiglione]

KainD wrote...

Every person determines for themselves. Optimal outcome is the one when you get the most of what you want, as much as the game allows you to. 

+10
A very good definition.

[Steelcan]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Well this seems to have gone predictably were it usually does.

Oh and DA Forum's Clique status confirmed.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Plaintiff wrote...

How does one determine which outcome is the "optimal" one anyway?

A combination of their own view of what works best for them and what the story best presents to represent that idea.

I personally believe the Dark Ritual with Morrigan is the preferred route for me, especially when one of my 4 canon Warden's romances her.

[Fast Jimmy]

Does this thread have any semblance of a topic any longer? Let alone one related to DA:I?

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

You didn't teach me anything about RPGs. You did heavily support a deduction of mine about people.

You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means. In fact, I know it doesn't.

Deductions are (in logical arguments) considered little more than conclusions drawn from hypothesis, supposition, and assumption based off of a general premise that is often prejudged by the person postulating the premise and deduction. You're assuming that your general premise is right, and that your conclusion, based on your deduction from your premise, is also correct. 

You don't have a sound argument since your premise, which is overwhelmingly seen as an imposition of your own beliefs, values, preferences, etc. is true as a whole for gamers (it's not). Your conclusion could possibly be valid, but your general premise, and thus your deduction (and thus, your argument) isn't sound.

Deductive reasoning in non-objective settings and terms (that is, non-mathematical or non-propositional and predicate logic) is not something that is taken seriously in logical debate. It's considered a skill that is developed without education or training. As such, it's not generally taught at higher levels of acadamia outside of logical calculus and mathematics. In high school for example, students are expected to use reasoning and logic at different and higher skill levels than deductive reasoning.

So because you make a deduction, it is not automatically correct, sound, or valid. A deduction is in logical argumentation, as I already stated, a form of prejudiced hypothesis, supposition, and, most importantly, assumption. I'm not saying it can't be used, but it can only be used correctly. You are not using it correctly.

[Star fury]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Does this thread have any semblance of a topic any longer? Let alone one related to DA:I?

No, it doesn't. All thanks to one poster - David7204. Instead of stopping him from deraling the thread, mods will just close it and then blame whole bsn for bickering.

[Iakus]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

How does one determine which outcome is the "optimal" one anyway?

A combination of their own view of what works best for them and what the story best presents to represent that idea.

I personally believe the Dark Ritual with Morrigan is the preferred route for me, especially when one of my 4 canon Warden's romances her.

And I think Redeemer is the best.  And neither of us is wrong 

That's the secret, provide benefits and drawbacks to the choices made.  And that includes benefits and drawbacks to living and dying (for the purposes of the topic for this thread)

The player should not be punished for wanting their character to live.

[Xilizhra]

And I think Redeemer is the best. And neither of us is wrong

Forgive me if this sounds flippant, but how is "recruit the guy you hate and then destroy his soul" the most heroic option?

[Reznore57]

Xilizhra wrote...

And I think Redeemer is the best. And neither of us is wrong

Forgive me if this sounds flippant, but how is "recruit the guy you hate and then destroy his soul" the most heroic option?

It's about Loghain?
Well it's about redemption , you do not force him I think ...
It's just a way for him to save his country and undo all the wrongs he has done.
Afterall he sort of roll the red carpet for the darkspawn.Killing all wardens , focusing his men on the civil war etc...
It's not the most heroic option for you , it is for Loghain.He doesn't die a traitor but a savior.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

iakus wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

How does one determine which outcome is the "optimal" one anyway?

A combination of their own view of what works best for them and what the story best presents to represent that idea.

I personally believe the Dark Ritual with Morrigan is the preferred route for me, especially when one of my 4 canon Warden's romances her.

And I think Redeemer is the best.  And neither of us is wrong 

That's the secret, provide benefits and drawbacks to the choices made.  And that includes benefits and drawbacks to living and dying (for the purposes of the topic for this thread)

The player should not be punished for wanting their character to live.

I believe that the player getting the happy ending does not mean that everybody in the setting should.

For example, if Shepard were to survive, I think there is an acceptable level of sacrifice that Shepard makes (as in, he sacrifices others to stop the Reapers, something perfectly in line with my Shepard's views) to get his happy ending.

If you want the best happy ending for the galaxy, I think there should be some kind of sacrifice on Shepard's part. As in, I think Shepard would sacrifice his own happiness (and life probably) to get that to the galaxy. I'm not a fan of that, but I can see where it has it's appeal. If you want Shepard to live, depending on how it's done, I think there should be strong external loss. Shepard lives, at the cost of many, many people, squadmates, races, galactic stability, etc. And Shepard's personal philosophy throughout the games could reflect on how it's portrayed, or how Shepard view this new state, or whatnot. 

My Shepard isn't willing to die for the galaxy. He's ready to die to accomplish his goal of destroying the Reapers, but not for saving the galaxy. He's a bit too unfettered and detached for that. Really, for my Shepard, Miranda is the only person he is willing to die for. She is what he is ultimately fighting for. A future with her, and if not that, her safety.

That's why I'm perfectly fine with EDI and the Geth's deaths. I'm sacrificing them to accomplish my goal. My goal outweighs all of their lives. It's the relays I'm rather worried about in Destroy.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 31 octobre 2013 - 01:56 .

[ImperatorMortis]

khariuade wrote...

mate let me say this. i hate those types of ending.. it always feels "forced" , i dont mind them being in the game but i want an ending where i get the cake and i get to eat it

e.g Survive, defeat villain, rainbows etc ;p

Exactly. This is a RPG I don't mind the whole dying in the end thing, but as you said they need to let me be able to have my cake, and eat it too. 

We don't want another "Mass Effect 3 ending" here.  

[Xilizhra]

I believe that the player getting the happy ending does not mean that everybody in the setting should.

I personally think that, ideally, there should be a chance of this too.

[Br3admax]

I don't play games to be heroic.
I don't play games to be Jeebus.
I don't play games so I can have control that I lack in real life.
I don't play games to live out my fantasies.
I don't play games to escape my suicidal thoughts.
I don't play games because it gives me a way to get out my frustrations.
I don't play video games to forget real life.

Am I the only one who just wants to and does play video games to hear a compelling story, to see a compelling world, to experience both and remember it as quality entertainment? Not to force my morals onto every single character, especially my own? Not to save the world from what I think it needs saving from? To make a statement about mankind? To just play a video game for an hour? Why should making "heroic" choices matter?

[Fast Jimmy]

Br3ad wrote...

I don't play games to be heroic.
I don't play games to be Jeebus.
I don't play games so I can have control that I lack in real life.
I don't play games to live out my fantasies.
I don't play games to escape my suicidal thoughts.
I don't play games because it gives me a way to get out my frustrations.
I don't play video games to forget real life.

Am I the only one who just wants to and does play video games to hear a compelling story, to see a compelling world, to experience both and remember it as quality entertainment? Not to force my morals onto every single character, especially my own? Not to save the world from what I think it needs saving from? To make a statement about mankind? To just play a video game for an hour? Why should making "heroic" choices matter?

You are not alone. Video games are not my alternative to alcohol or drugs as a coping mechanism to deal with a depressing life.