1331 réponses à ce sujet

[crimzontearz]

Br3ad wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

ImperatorMortis wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

I don't play games to be heroic.
I don't play games to be Jeebus.
I don't play games so I can have control that I lack in real life.
I don't play games to live out my fantasies.
I don't play games to escape my suicidal thoughts.
I don't play games because it gives me a way to get out my frustrations.
I don't play video games to forget real life.

Am I the only one who just wants to and does play video games to hear a compelling story, to see a compelling world, to experience both and remember it as quality entertainment? Not to force my morals onto every single character, especially my own? Not to save the world from what I think it needs saving from? To make a statement about mankind? To just play a video game for an hour? Why should making "heroic" choices matter?

Just because you prefer this doesn't mean every does. Don't get me wrong you should get whatever ending you want or a equivalent, but some of us enjoy playing through a game, and having certain decisions we've made let us have our "perfect" ending.

This is a RPG that advertises choice, its not a novel. 

Choice doesn't =believe what I believe, anymore than fruit=apple. Having a choice doesn't mean that you should get what you want, have your cake and eat it to, and then make your call superior to everyone else's and make everything one sided. The world doesn't work that way. 

the reasons why you play a game, the parts that give you enjoyment and those that don't are entirely subjective.

At this point since the existence (yes the very existence as an option) of an "golden ending" might spoil your fun entirely your subjective tastes are entirely incompatible with those of many other people.

So the question becomes "who does bioware cater to?"

As these are tastes none is inherently more valid than the next, so, why yours over those of others?

1. Not the point.
2. That's great, my choices should stil matter just as much you want theirs too. Nothing should make siding with mages superior to siding with Templars, for instance. Siding with mages should not be what allows me to survive a thunderstorm, for a really simple example.
3. They should cater to no one. Everyone's problem is that they think that they are special and that BioWare should cater to them and what they want. They should show that every customer and consumer is just as valuable as the next. 

but they cannot if your tastes are utterly incompatible with those of other customers now can they? So, unless you are willing to accept the option of a possible golden ending then, the question needs to be answered, why cater to YOUR tastes and not those of others?

[Br3admax]

No one is going to play the game exactly the same, so your "Golden Ending" will not come from your choices. Second, Golden Endings only invalidate choice and makes it seem like nothing matters. What makes you believe that the majority of people want that, when that is what the majority of people complain about? There should be a good ending, there should be a less good ending, but an ending where everyone gets in a circle, holds hands, and sings Kumbaya together is pointless and makes playing the game pointless. None of it ever mattered.

[crimzontearz]

Br3ad wrote...

No one is going to play the game exactly the same, so your "Golden Ending" will not come from your choices. Second, Golden Endings only invalidate choice and makes it seem like nothing matters. What makes you believe that the majority of people want that, when that is what the majority of people complain about? There should be a good ending, there should be a less good ending, but an ending where everyone gets in a circle, holds hands, and sings Kumbaya together is pointless and makes playing the game pointless. None of it ever mattered.

Your Your idea if a golden ending is skewed and unrealistic.

To give you an example, in ME3, to me, a golden ending would be High EMS destroy, (being the only ending on which it will take centuries to rebuild the relays and galactic civilization is considerably set back) with no forced Geth death (pet peeve of mine, made no sense, but we can leave it if it makes more sense) and a proper reunion scene (still with all the unavoidable deaths we got, so Thane, Mording/wrex and so on)


 
For that matter a ME1 ending would work too

Are you against the option for such an ending?

[Ieldra]

iakus wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

And I think Redeemer is the best. And neither of us is wrong

Forgive me if this sounds flippant, but how is "recruit the guy you hate and then destroy his soul" the most heroic option?

It's heroic for Loghain. He volunteers for it

"I have done...so much wrong.  Allow me to do one last thing right"

I don't say it's the "most heroic" or even teh "best" ending.  Arguments can be made for other endings.  But it's the ending that works best for me.  The price to be paid (strained relationship with Alistair, Morigan abandoning you, Loghain's treason fading into the background of his slaying the archdemon) are worth it.

That's what gets forgotten:  when people say there has to be a price for survival:  the price has to be worth it.

If you offer a number of prices to pay, you stand a better chance of finding one that's palatable to a given player.

Not quite the right way to phrase it I think. The price - if any - needs to be signficant, but acceptable at the same time. Ideally, the player should feel its impact, but it shouldn't be big enough to prevent them from making that choice.

Offering several alternatives is basically the only way to do this, because the balance is tricky, and no single setup will fit even half of the players.

[Ieldra]

@crimsontearz:
No, that would not be a golden ending for me since it would still send a thematic message I detest. My personal golden ending is DAO's Dark Ritual ending combined with romancing Morrigan. There, everything turns out in the most appropriate way - and I said this before Witch Hunt came out. Witch Hunt just put the dot on the i and made it so perfect that I couldn't have written a better outcome for myself.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 31 octobre 2013 - 03:35 .

[crimzontearz]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@crimsontearz:
No, that would not be a golden ending for me since it would still send a thematic message I detest.

not the point I am trying to make Ieldra

[Ieldra]

crimzontearz wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@crimsontearz:
No, that would not be a golden ending for me since it would still send a thematic message I detest.

not the point I am trying to make Ieldra

All right, perhaps all of ME3's endings need "golden" versions, with the possible exception of Control? I would accept that, but singling one choice out for the "golden" version is pretty much telling the player base that there is a right and correct option. I detest that, too.

[Br3admax]

crimzontearz wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

No one is going to play the game exactly the same, so your "Golden Ending" will not come from your choices. Second, Golden Endings only invalidate choice and makes it seem like nothing matters. What makes you believe that the majority of people want that, when that is what the majority of people complain about? There should be a good ending, there should be a less good ending, but an ending where everyone gets in a circle, holds hands, and sings Kumbaya together is pointless and makes playing the game pointless. None of it ever mattered.

Your Your idea if a golden ending is skewed and unrealistic.

To give you an example, in ME3, to me, a golden ending would be High EMS destroy, (being the only ending on which it will take centuries to rebuild the relays and galactic civilization is considerably set back) with no forced Geth death (pet peeve of mine, made no sense, but we can leave it if it makes more sense) and a proper reunion scene (still with all the unavoidable deaths we got, so Thane, Mording/wrex and so on)


 
For that matter a ME1 ending would work too

Are you against the option for such an ending?

So basically, "No choice mattered, and everyone else's is wrong. I got to live, makeout with my LI, and go home. No one but the Reapers died. Win-Win." Yeah, that sounds really one-sided, what you want. Clearly, this is the only valid choice as it has no consequences that would make it undesirable. Saying that they have to rebuild the relays doesn't change the fact that every singel choice made became invalid all the same. ME's ending is not a golden ending either. Everyone else's choices still mattered in the end. There was no one right answer. Thinking that My Ending=Golden Ending is wrong. Golden Ending means the best ending and one with the least amount of undesirable consequences. It is much better to have a game where you can do better and having to earn it, but not one where you somehow have the only right choice. 

[dreamgazer]

I think we need to ditch the notion of a "golden ending", especially for Dragon Age.

[dreamgazer]

Morocco Mole wrote...

I think New Vegas had the best system for getting a "golden ending"

[Estelindis]

I would like to ask people some questions.  What do you think are the specific strengths of the endings for DA:O and DA2?  How do you think those endings could be improved?  Maybe we can consolidate some data on the basis of this discussion.

[crimzontearz]

Br3ad wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

No one is going to play the game exactly the same, so your "Golden Ending" will not come from your choices. Second, Golden Endings only invalidate choice and makes it seem like nothing matters. What makes you believe that the majority of people want that, when that is what the majority of people complain about? There should be a good ending, there should be a less good ending, but an ending where everyone gets in a circle, holds hands, and sings Kumbaya together is pointless and makes playing the game pointless. None of it ever mattered.

Your Your idea if a golden ending is skewed and unrealistic.

To give you an example, in ME3, to me, a golden ending would be High EMS destroy, (being the only ending on which it will take centuries to rebuild the relays and galactic civilization is considerably set back) with no forced Geth death (pet peeve of mine, made no sense, but we can leave it if it makes more sense) and a proper reunion scene (still with all the unavoidable deaths we got, so Thane, Mording/wrex and so on)


 
For that matter a ME1 ending would work too

Are you against the option for such an ending?

So basically, "No choice mattered, and everyone else's is wrong. I got to live, makeout with my LI, and go home. No one but the Reapers died. Win-Win." Yeah, that sounds really one-sided, what you want. Clearly, this is the only valid choice as it has no consequences that would make it undesirable. Saying that they have to rebuild the relays doesn't change the fact that every singel choice made became invalid all the same. ME's ending is not a golden ending either. Everyone else's choices still mattered in the end. There was no one right answer. Thinking that My Ending=Golden Ending is wrong. Golden Ending means the best ending and one with the least amount of undesirable consequences. It is much better to have a game where you can do better and having to earn it, but not one where you somehow have the only right choice. 

and herein we have the issue, the very existence of this option upsets you, but I would GLADLY pay 20$ for it as a DLC.

So, why should your tastes be catered to and not mine?

Granted there would be other, less appealing, to me, options

[Seboist]

Morocco Mole wrote...

e: as badly written as the endings are in ME3, I can at least respect Bioware for what they did with Destroy.

High EMS Destroy is a golden ending if you hate the Geth and EDI. 

[Seboist]

crimzontearz wrote...
 but I would GLADLY pay 20$ for it as a DLC.

A sucker is truly born every minute.

For $20 you can get two good story DLCs for Dishonored, which is a HELL of a lot more bang for you book than some crappy wish fulfilment ending for a linear Gears clone.

Modifié par Seboist, 31 octobre 2013 - 04:09 .

[Redbelle]

Estelindis wrote...

I would like to ask people some questions.  What do you think are the specific strengths of the endings for DA:O and DA2?  How do you think those endings could be improved?  Maybe we can consolidate some data on the basis of this discussion.

Strength's of DA:O?

Multiple endings that have a broad range of context. The use of many different characters before hand to change the context of the final scene. The possibility of the death of the character...... and their funeral before the whole of the free world who heralds the Warden a hero...... To the survival and final send off where you get to meet up with all your friends and have that last.... "What will you do now", talk.

DA2's ending strength's?

I didn't really get on with that ending..... It lacked DA:O's scope and ambition..... But I think the reason is less to do with the ending and more as to how the ending was built using Varic as the vehicle to tell how the ending came about. There is no walking off into the sunset. No keeping the POV with the character throughout. It's like you got to see glimpses of the character's life rather than being the character.

Coming back to what I said before i a past post, Using Varic as a vehicle to tell the story breaks immesion from being Hawke. While focusing on a person you need to go across media to know who she is......

....And on that topic, please BW..... If you must pull a character from DVD, or even comic.... introduce her again as if she never existed before the game..... Those who read around may feel empowered but those of us who choose not to, or cannot afford the wider universe found in books or comics or DVD get left behind and the context of what a character does is lost..... and as a viewer of content not being allowed to understand the genius of storytelling is frustrating......

Anyway, how to fix DA2's ending.

Shift the POV out of chapter's told by another and focus on the player character. And make the focus of the game throughout, the character. It doesn't have to be all character POV. Saren and Benezia in Sovereign, Logain's appeal for unity in DA:O after he betrayed the King to his death...... these scene's have there place in story telling. But Varic's story of the Champion felt...... jarring. Like the journey to the destiny of the champion kept stopping off along the motorway for loo breaks rather than pushing ahead.

Breaks are fine, but I'd prefer for the breaks to come at my choice. Such as going to a place in game where you can put your feet up and do something else. Such as Citadel DLC's game zone where you can earn mods and bragging rights with high scores.

Modifié par Redbelle, 31 octobre 2013 - 04:15 .

[dreamgazer]

crimzontearz wrote...

and herein we have the issue, the very existence of this option upsets you, but I would GLADLY pay 20$ for it as a DLC.

That is, definitely, an issue.

Would you be comfortable with BioWare producing "golden ending" DLC with the disclaimer that they don't consider it canon?

Modifié par dreamgazer, 31 octobre 2013 - 04:13 .

[Steelcan]

*obligatory blackjack and hookers*

[dragonflight288]

dreamgazer wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

and herein we have the issue, the very existence of this option upsets you, but I would GLADLY pay 20$ for it as a DLC.

That is, definitely, an issue.

Would you be comfortable with BioWare producing "golden ending" DLC with the disclaimer that they don't consider it canon?

Or even a DLC ending that requires certain parameters be met in order to achieve it?

[Br3admax]

crimzontearz wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

No one is going to play the game exactly the same, so your "Golden Ending" will not come from your choices. Second, Golden Endings only invalidate choice and makes it seem like nothing matters. What makes you believe that the majority of people want that, when that is what the majority of people complain about? There should be a good ending, there should be a less good ending, but an ending where everyone gets in a circle, holds hands, and sings Kumbaya together is pointless and makes playing the game pointless. None of it ever mattered.

Your Your idea if a golden ending is skewed and unrealistic.

To give you an example, in ME3, to me, a golden ending would be High EMS destroy, (being the only ending on which it will take centuries to rebuild the relays and galactic civilization is considerably set back) with no forced Geth death (pet peeve of mine, made no sense, but we can leave it if it makes more sense) and a proper reunion scene (still with all the unavoidable deaths we got, so Thane, Mording/wrex and so on)


 
For that matter a ME1 ending would work too

Are you against the option for such an ending?

So basically, "No choice mattered, and everyone else's is wrong. I got to live, makeout with my LI, and go home. No one but the Reapers died. Win-Win." Yeah, that sounds really one-sided, what you want. Clearly, this is the only valid choice as it has no consequences that would make it undesirable. Saying that they have to rebuild the relays doesn't change the fact that every singel choice made became invalid all the same. ME's ending is not a golden ending either. Everyone else's choices still mattered in the end. There was no one right answer. Thinking that My Ending=Golden Ending is wrong. Golden Ending means the best ending and one with the least amount of undesirable consequences. It is much better to have a game where you can do better and having to earn it, but not one where you somehow have the only right choice. 

and herein we have the issue, the very existence of this option upsets you, but I would GLADLY pay 20$ for it as a DLC.

So, why should your tastes be catered to and not mine?

Granted there would be other, less appealing, to me, options

Yes, you are correct. The very notion of the "My choices matter more than yours, suck it" option does upset me. Everyone's choices matter and the choices should not be what desides who has the best ending. Game investment and skill should. Your problem is that you believe that BioWare should make an ending for your side, as compared to everyone else's. Nothing gives you the right to have your choices be the right choices for anyone besides you. 

[Redbelle]

dreamgazer wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

and herein we have the issue, the very existence of this option upsets you, but I would GLADLY pay 20$ for it as a DLC.

That is, definitely, an issue.

Would you be comfortable with BioWare producing "golden ending" DLC with the disclaimer that they don't consider it canon?

BW need to understand, the player's make canon within their own playthroughs. That's the joy of how BW developed their games to be much... much more changable in game content than other developers. There games are not like other dev's games. BW games allow for a more versitile Game/gamer relationship by virtue of the routes and ways their games can resolve themselves.....

Or put it another way. I'd like to see BW make games like they made DA:O with multiple routes through the game. I know it must be difficult, but the results when done right are staggeringly good. Compared to any other game where the route is a rail road and the point of the game is to go from A to B with no possibility of variation between multiple playthroughs.

Modifié par Redbelle, 31 octobre 2013 - 04:29 .

[Dave of Canada]

Morocco Mole wrote...

e: as badly written as the endings are in ME3, I can at least respect Bioware for what they did with Destroy.

Meh, I respect the decisions behind the endings but it was handled too poorly for me to compliment it anymore than that. The fact that everyone thinks the biggest problem with the ending is because it wasn't 100% happy makes me sad.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 31 octobre 2013 - 04:24 .