1331 réponses à ce sujet

[Plaintiff]

Estelindis wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Human rights are an objective good, not subjective.

Particular human rights are still the subject of many disputes, though.  This is the case in Dragon Age, e.g. individual right to freedom of mages held against the right of the general population to be safe from harmful magic.

I don't see why we have to look at it as a binary question of this or that. I don't perceive those two rights as being in conflict with each other at all.

[Estelindis]

Steelcan wrote...

hang on... Are you guys taking the guy WITH A CERBERUS avatar seriously when he is talking about stuff like this?

Are you talking about yourself?  Are you implying that you're trolling us?  If so, please simply stop.  If not, what are you talking about?

[Plaintiff]

Steelcan wrote...

Estelindis wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Human rights are an objective good, not subjective.

Particular human rights are still the subject of many disputes, though.  This is the case in Dragon Age, e.g. individual right to freedom of mages held against the right of the general population to be safe from harmful magic.

Simple, mages aren't the same as non-mages

So human rights are an objective good, except when you personally decide that one group of humans shouldn't have them.

[Estelindis]

Plaintiff wrote...

Estelindis wrote...

Particular human rights are still the subject of many disputes, though.  This is the case in Dragon Age, e.g. individual right to freedom of mages held against the right of the general population to be safe from harmful magic.

I don't see why we have to look at it as a binary question of this or that. I don't perceive those two rights as being in conflict with each other at all.

Plenty of people in Thedas do!  What solution would you give them, then?  

[Steelcan]

Estelindis wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Simple, mages aren't the same as non-mages

And here we have it.  So objective human rights isn't the same as universal human rights?  Mages are human, after all.  (And, in the context of Thedas, let's say that, when we talk about human rights, we mean the rights of all people, rather than the specific human race.)

.
Mages arent the same as average Joe in Thedas, they are a danger until proven otherwise.  And again, look at my avatar and ask if you think I care about non-humans.

[Steelcan]

Plaintiff wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Estelindis wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Human rights are an objective good, not subjective.

Particular human rights are still the subject of many disputes, though.  This is the case in Dragon Age, e.g. individual right to freedom of mages held against the right of the general population to be safe from harmful magic.

Simple, mages aren't the same as non-mages

So human rights are an objective good, except when you personally decide that one group of humans shouldn't have them.

I consider mages, mages.  Humans are non mage humans, elves are non mage elves.  

[Star fury]

Steelcan wrote...

hang on... Are you guys taking the guy WITH A CERBERUS avatar seriously when he is talking about stuff like this?

What's wrong with the Cerberus or Anders avatar for that matter?

Modifié par Star fury, 01 novembre 2013 - 02:17 .

[Estelindis]

Steelcan wrote...

Mages arent the same as average Joe in Thedas, they are a danger until proven otherwise.  And again, look at my avatar and ask if you think I care about non-humans.

So you're saying that mages aren't human?  They have human faces.  They can suffer, love, and learn.  Honestly, I think it's nonsense to make a show of saying that human rights are objective when you go on to make assertions like these.

However, I think that we're drifting from the topic of the thread.  I would guide it back by pointing out that what constitutes a meaningful life or death for a player or protagonist will depend on views like those expressed above.

What would be a meaningful death for a protagonist who really believes that mages are not human (human = people)? Would it be a sacrifice to reinforce the oppression of mages for the sake of the rest of society? In the world of Thedas, I don't see that succeeding in the long term any more than the act of violence committed by Anders, to be honest.


MODEDIT: Removing deleted quote.
-Allan

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 01 novembre 2013 - 08:35 .

[2Pac]

KainD wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

It makes perfect sense.  I often create "false" opinions as a means to test why people think what they think; I want to see their reasoning and justification.

I'm usually disappointed on BSN though. 

You can just ask. I'm always willing to make people understand when they have questions for me. 

What i want to know is what's the point of going off topic and arguing over "False" Opinions. <_<

[Iakus]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I may have biases because I'm a pretty prolific gamer and play a lot of games.  If you're someone that ONLY plays BioWare games (or at least games similar), then we're coming at this from different contexts.

I admit, Bioware has spoiled me.  At this point games where I have no control over the protagonist bore me.  I want to play my character, no t someone else's idea of a character 

As for the "tough choices," I think people gravitate towards death because death is an easy example of something that has a lasting consequence and many understand is painful for people.  It may be becoming cliched though, and you could have examples were a group will face clear financial hardship, deportation/relocation, or even just the loss of a friendship.

Agreed.  Too much death as a consewquence for anything major cheapens what should be a serious matter.

I actually think it'd be really interesting if a companion that I really like questions a decision I make at one point, and despite getting along if I make a particular choice (that I think is the best choices to make) it may be an ultimate deal breaker for my friend.  How do I reconcile supporting a friend that has been with me through a lot, yet ultimately wants me to choose something that I think may not be the best decision.

I find those interesting because they also talk to me as a person.  It makes Allan Schumacher pause and go "Hmmmmm" and few games do that for me, and it's an experience that I really enjoy.

Like, say, the Dark Ritual?  

The Warden I had when I did the Redeemer ending actually had Morrigan as a LI.  Poor guy ended up Forever Alone until Witch Hunt.  

NOTE: My thought experiment is a hypothetical, and I'd like to point out that I'm not actually in charge of the narrative direction of the game, AND I -do- feel I understand perspectives such as yours, which is where "Developer Allan" comes in, even if "Gamer Allan" wants different things from games.

Understood.  It's still good to get "Developer Allan" and "Gamer Allan"'s thoughts. 

[TMZuk]

Endings like in Fallout 3 and Mass Effect 3, where the player is forced into a role as Messiah is the worst kind of endings.

Now, if it's a choice, it might be acceptable. But please, couldn't Bioware make a game where I do not have to carry the weight of the universe on my shoulders? I am tired of having to save the world because everyone else is to incompetent, caught up in struggles or downright stupid to do something.

A game where I can be an egocentric ****, if I want to! Where I can do for me, rather than the world, if I want to. Have a look at Fallout: New Vegas if you are in doubt how to do it. There I could support NCR, the Legion, Mr. House... or.... my own character! That was great!

[Iakus]

TMZuk wrote...


Now, if it's a choice, it might be acceptable. But please, couldn't Bioware make a game where I do not have to carry the weight of the universe on my shoulders? I am tired of having to save the world because everyone else is to incompetent, caught up in struggles or downright stupid to do something.

Baldur's Gate 2:  shed your mortal form and become a god.  Or reject the  power, and spend the rest of your life as a mere mortal, albiet a powerful one.

[KainD]

iakus wrote...

TMZuk wrote...


Now, if it's a choice, it might be acceptable. But please, couldn't Bioware make a game where I do not have to carry the weight of the universe on my shoulders? I am tired of having to save the world because everyone else is to incompetent, caught up in struggles or downright stupid to do something.

Baldur's Gate 2:  shed your mortal form and become a god.  Or reject the  power, and spend the rest of your life as a mere mortal, albiet a powerful one.

There was also NWN2, but that was't a bioware game. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I expect to be able to determine 'right' and 'wrong' for myself, thanks.

My party members will never be 'right' when they criticize me. If I thought their opinion had any merit, I would've done what they wanted to begin with.

What if you're wrong? we all are at some point or another.

A moral realist, EA?

[Sylvius the Mad]

iakus wrote...

I admit, Bioware has spoiled me.  At this point games where I have no control over the protagonist bore me.  I want to play my character, no t someone else's idea of a character 

I am totally with you on this point.  Designing and playing a character is the fun part of gaming.  Watching a character someone else wrote simply doesn't interest me.

But I think I've always done that.  I play strategy games this way.  I play sports and racing games this way.  The only games that really actively prevent it are story-based games, like JRPGs.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

I have no idea how someone could live with such boringly restrictive standards imo. Give me a game with a good story, solid writing, and smooth gameplay, rpg elements or no, and I'll enjoy it.

[crimzontearz]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

I have no idea how someone could live with such boringly restrictive standards imo. Give me a game with a good story, solid writing, and smooth gameplay, rpg elements or no, and I'll enjoy it.

what standards?

[The Flying Grey Warden]

crimzontearz wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

I have no idea how someone could live with such boringly restrictive standards imo. Give me a game with a good story, solid writing, and smooth gameplay, rpg elements or no, and I'll enjoy it.

what standards?

Read the post above mine.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Steelcan wrote...

KainD wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

And they are wrong

Yes they are, to you. And you are wrong to them. 

Human rights are an objective good, not subjective.

Really, they aren't objective. It's an ideal I agree with, but it's not an objective ideal or made to a standard.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Plaintiff wrote...

I expect to be able to determine 'right' and 'wrong' for myself, thanks.

My party members will never be 'right' when they criticize me. If I thought their opinion had any merit, I would've done what they wanted to begin with.

See, this is just being stubborn and too wound up on your own opinion to accept any kind of inpur or different perspective. It's a terrible style of leadership, let alone management. 

Even if I don't agree with a squadmates position and probably won't accept it as my given solution to a problem, it's still always useful to get another perspective or opinion on an issue. 

Assuming you're always right only gets you so far until your head lands in the dirt and your ass is hanging in the air when you inevitably reach a point where you've misjudged or miscalculated. 

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 01 novembre 2013 - 06:03 .

[wright1978]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

iakus wrote...

I admit, Bioware has spoiled me.  At this point games where I have no control over the protagonist bore me.  I want to play my character, no t someone else's idea of a character 

I am totally with you on this point.  Designing and playing a character is the fun part of gaming.  Watching a character someone else wrote simply doesn't interest me.

But I think I've always done that.  I play strategy games this way.  I play sports and racing games this way.  The only games that really actively prevent it are story-based games, like JRPGs.

Agree completely, the appeal and strength of games to me is playing my character. If i want to watch someone else's version of a character i'll do so on tv/movie.

[Ravensword]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I expect to be able to determine 'right' and 'wrong' for myself, thanks.

My party members will never be 'right' when they criticize me. If I thought their opinion had any merit, I would've done what they wanted to begin with.

See, this is just being stubborn and too wound up on your own opinion to accept any kind of inpur or different perspective. It's a terrible style of leadership, let alone management. 

Even if I don't agree with a squadmates position and probably won't accept it as my given solution to a problem, it's still always useful to get another perspective or opinion on an issue. 

Assuming you're always right only gets you so far until your head lands in the dirt and your ass is hanging in the air when you inevitably reach a point where you've misjudged or miscalculated. 

A likely scenario for someone who claims to be egalitarian, yet advocates genocide.


MODEDIT: Inappropriate.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 01 novembre 2013 - 08:54 .

[The Heretic of Time]

wright1978 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

iakus wrote...

I admit, Bioware has spoiled me.  At this point games where I have no control over the protagonist bore me.  I want to play my character, no t someone else's idea of a character 

I am totally with you on this point.  Designing and playing a character is the fun part of gaming.  Watching a character someone else wrote simply doesn't interest me.

But I think I've always done that.  I play strategy games this way.  I play sports and racing games this way.  The only games that really actively prevent it are story-based games, like JRPGs.

Agree completely, the appeal and strength of games to me is playing my character. If i want to watch someone else's version of a character i'll do so on tv/movie.

Ugh.

Am I the only person who actually likes to play video-games primarily for... well.... you know... the gameplay? 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

iakus wrote...

I admit, Bioware has spoiled me.  At this point games where I have no control over the protagonist bore me.  I want to play my character, no t someone else's idea of a character 

I am totally with you on this point.  Designing and playing a character is the fun part of gaming.  Watching a character someone else wrote simply doesn't interest me.

But I think I've always done that.  I play strategy games this way.  I play sports and racing games this way.  The only games that really actively prevent it are story-based games, like JRPGs.

Agree completely, the appeal and strength of games to me is playing my character. If i want to watch someone else's version of a character i'll do so on tv/movie.

Ugh.

Am I the only person who actually likes to play video-games primarily for... well.... you know... the gameplay? 

I don't think you are, but I'm with Wright and Sylvius.

I'd rather have ok gameplay (though I think it would be interesting if the difficulty had a noticeable effect on the story, like with having greater possibilities coming from playing a higher difficulty) with excellent characters in a good universe with decent writing.

For me, I like having good characters, with a good Player Character that I can customize and RP with. That's my preference anyway.