1331 réponses à ce sujet

[Allan Schumacher]

David7204 wrote...

You do not spend 50 hours telling a story about a group of characters and then, at the climax, have a bunch of either minor characters or characters the player has never seen before at all come in and solve everything while the player character and party stands by and does nothing. Are people seriously trying to defend such a thing as good writing?

You're changing what your arguing somewhat with this .

Characters like Alistair and Loghain are not minor characters in Dragon Age, and the context by which they sacrifice themselves makes sense within the narrative (and is still driven by the player character as well).

You are starting to flirt a line though, as I think it's time to step back and recognize that different people may want different things out of their narrative experiences than you do.

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 01 novembre 2013 - 11:53 .

[Volus Warlord]

David7204 wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

The story is no more about the protagonist than it is about Javik. Or Loghain. That's what you're failing--no, refusing--to understand.

Tell me. Is the story more about Shepard than Eddie Leng? Is the story more about the Warden and Hawke and the Inquistor than the guy who says 'Enchantment?' and nothing else?

Yup. Enchantment is more vital to the story then the Warden. It is known. 

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

dreamgazer wrote...

i have needed this gif in my life

[Sylvius the Mad]

David7204 wrote...

Somehow I don't think the Ideal man would question himself.

I think the Ideal man would question everything, most of all his own thoughts and perceptions.

[Inquisitor Recon]

David you seem to be failing to see the difference between a character having more or less relevance/importance to the story and the entire universe revolving around the PC.

[dreamgazer]

David7204 wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

The story is no more about the protagonist than it is about Javik. Or Loghain. That's what you're failing--no, refusing--to understand.

Tell me. Is the story more about Shepard than Eddie Leng? Is the story more about the Warden and Hawke and the Inquistor than the guy who says 'Enchantment?' and nothing else?

Depends.  One popular theory suggests that Sandal may, in fact, be the maker.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

The story is no more about the protagonist than it is about Javik. Or Loghain. That's what you're failing--no, refusing--to understand.

Tell me. Is the story more about Shepard than Eddie Leng? Is the story more about the Warden and Hawke and the Inquistor than the guy who says 'Enchantment?' and nothing else?

You're the only person bringing up this argument. You've changed it from what it originally was, because your previous argument was defeated. 

As for your points on Dragon Age:

[AresKeith]

David7204 wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

The story is no more about the protagonist than it is about Javik. Or Loghain. That's what you're failing--no, refusing--to understand.

Tell me. Is the story more about Shepard than Eddie Leng? Is the story more about the Warden and Hawke and the Inquistor than the guy who says 'Enchantment?' and nothing else?

Sandal is a hero, and more powerful than all of them 

[Fast Jimmy]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

I guess.

It isn't adopted from a particular philosopher, just my own thoughts on the matter.

You may have figured out, but I loathe the mindset that anything and everything is subjective. That's anarchy in a pretty dress.

I'm not even convinced that you're real.  With something as ephemeral as a moral rule, significantly less so.

LOL My opinion is that somewhere between Sylvius and Kant, a solid middle ground of actionable morality may (OR MAY NOT! LOL) exist.

[Sylvius the Mad]

David7204 wrote...

It's not. Not at all. That's not the issue. The issue is a character being placed at the thematic center of the story when it's not appropriate. And being the player's least liked squadmate sure as hell does not make it appropriate.

Every character is the thematic centre of his own story.  Miranda is the most important person in Miranda's story.  Javik is the most important person in Javik's story (I don't even know who Javik is).

[David7204]

The protagonist confronting the central conflict of the story does not make 'the universe revolve around him.' It just makes him the protagonist.

[David7204]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

David7204 wrote...

It's not. Not at all. That's not the issue. The issue is a character being placed at the thematic center of the story when it's not appropriate. And being the player's least liked squadmate sure as hell does not make it appropriate.

Every character is the thematic centre of his own story.  Miranda is the most important person in Miranda's story.  Javik is the most important person in Javik's story (I don't even know who Javik is).

Absolutely. Which makes it completely acceptable and desirable for each character to be central to their loyalty mission and personal arc.

However, that doesn't make them central to the overall story.

Modifié par David7204, 01 novembre 2013 - 11:55 .

[Br3admax]

David7204 wrote...

The protagonist confronting the central conflict of the story does not make 'the universe revolve around him.' It just makes him the protagonist.

You yourself already stated that you wanted them to be the center of the story. I will debate either point as soon as you realise what you are actually trying to debate. 

[Fast Jimmy]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

David7204 wrote...

You do not spend 50 hours telling a story about a group of characters and then, at the climax, have a bunch of either minor characters or characters the player has never seen before at all come in and solve everything while the player character and party stands by and does nothing. Are people seriously trying to defend such a thing as good writing?

You're changing what your arguing somewhat with this.

I think you are being insanely generous with the "somewhat" modifier there, Allan.

Characters like Alistair and Loghain are not minor characters in Dragon Age, and the context by which they sacrifice themselves makes sense within the narrative (and is still driven by the player character as well).

You are starting to flirt a line though, as I think it's time to step back and recognize that different people may want different things out of their narrative experiences than you do.

My perception isn't even that David feels he NEEDS parts of the narrative to do certain things. It's that they MUST, or they violate the concept of even being a story.

Frankly, I don't know how to even approach that level of certainty combined with a complete lack of outside perspective.

[AresKeith]

David7204 wrote...

The protagonist confronting the central conflict of the story does not make 'the universe revolve around him.' It just makes him the protagonist.

I don't think anymore is arguing that David, but you claim it's repulsive if a companion does it

[Volus Warlord]

David7204 wrote...

The protagonist confronting the central conflict of the story does not make 'the universe revolve around him.' It just makes him the protagonist.

Not necessarily. You see, through the Jinai discretionary factor, the protaganist may not be involved in the central conflict of the story.

[Fast Jimmy]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

David7204 wrote...

It's not. Not at all. That's not the issue. The issue is a character being placed at the thematic center of the story when it's not appropriate. And being the player's least liked squadmate sure as hell does not make it appropriate.

Every character is the thematic centre of his own story.  Miranda is the most important person in Miranda's story.  Javik is the most important person in Javik's story (I don't even know who Javik is).

The Prothean DLC character from ME3.

[dreamgazer]

Pseudocognition wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

i have needed this gif in my life

I know, right?!

[RedArmyShogun]

I want to survive to be crowned Emperor.

[Sylvius the Mad]

dreamgazer wrote...

David7204 wrote...

If the protagonist is not the character who faces the climax of the story, he shouldn't be the protagonist.

I wish you understood how much you continue to shoot yourself in the foot with comments like these, David.

I think he's right about this.

But I would go further and insist that the protagonist is always the climax of the story, which means that if you think he isn't then either you've misidentified the protagonist or you've misidentified the climax.

Depending on the protagonist, the defeat of the archdemon (or the reapers) could merely be background to the real climax, which could be some kind of personal epiphany.

[David7204]

AresKeith wrote...

David7204 wrote...

The protagonist confronting the central conflict of the story does not make 'the universe revolve around him.' It just makes him the protagonist.

I don't think anymore is arguing that David, but you claim it's repulsive if a companion does it

Not at all. I'm claiming it's repulsive if a companion does it by sole virtue of being the player's least liked companion.

Modifié par David7204, 01 novembre 2013 - 11:58 .