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Do you want an empty life, or a meaningful death? **spoilers**

Débuté par DragonKingReborn , oct. 28 2013 07:04

1331 réponses à ce sujet

#1176
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Posté 02 novembre 2013 - 01:27

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DAO elves are people. Not sure what those other guys are.

Modifié par StreetMagic, 02 novembre 2013 - 01:28 .

#1177
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Posté 02 novembre 2013 - 01:28

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

Yet how can you do that unless you inherently limit the choices or circumstances the player is given? 

Destroying the Anvil... how could that choice be one that is given to a player? He could say "destroy it" but then it refuses to be destroyed? That would make Caridan look incredibly foolish. Or, conversely, it could always be destroyed, even if you tried to save it... but that is, again, limting the story to one set of outcomes (even if its not one set of choices). I'd like multiple, even dozens of outcomes. But I'd like those myriad of outcomes to then be curtailed in future games to one canon, so that developing storylines could be continued to grow and more choices be offered with the same level of vartiability, but always a returning sense of balance.

Of course, I realize that is where we differe significantly. Because you drive much more satisfaction on making the RP choice rather than the story development choice than I do. Which is 100% fine... but that still doesn't make me wish there were tons of outcomes, not just tons of choices. And the only way outcomes can be numerous and varied in a series is through setting a canon between games, in my mind.

In a way, your approach is the same as mine. Curtailing the many choices down to one outcome. Mine just works on the macro level (between games), while yours on the micro level (between oen choice to the next).


Indeed.

#1178
wsandista
Posté 02 novembre 2013 - 01:28

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I want an empty life and empty death. Embrace how hopeless your struggles are, worm.

#1179
Xilizhra
Posté 02 novembre 2013 - 01:28

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Just throwing this random bone out here but... are Elves considered "citizens" per se?

When you make the allegation of selling Fereldan citizens, Loghain never denies it. So I'm pretty sure they're considered such, yes.

#1180
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Posté 02 novembre 2013 - 01:30

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wsandista wrote...

I want an empty life and empty death. Embrace how hopeless your struggles are, worm.


We all already played ME3. Time to move on :pinched:

#1181
Fast Jimmy
Posté 02 novembre 2013 - 01:32

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Xilizhra wrote...

Just throwing this random bone out here but... are Elves considered "citizens" per se?

When you make the allegation of selling Fereldan citizens, Loghain never denies it. So I'm pretty sure they're considered such, yes.


I guess I'm drawing too many RL parrallels about the origin of the word citizen and what it meant in our world's history. Not everyone was (or even still is) a citizen. Citizen has rights conferred and protections given that non-citizens are not afforded.

And that, boys and girls, is why you don't ever want to wind up in a Nicaraguan jail!

#1182
Fast Jimmy
Posté 02 novembre 2013 - 01:34

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StreetMagic wrote...

wsandista wrote...

I want an empty life and empty death. Embrace how hopeless your struggles are, worm.


We all already played ME3. Time to move on :pinched:


Yeah, that really does encapsulate an interpretation of the Catalyst's discussion with Shephard. "Embrace logic, lesser being. Embrace logic and suffer."

#1183
Xilizhra
Posté 02 novembre 2013 - 01:35

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I guess I'm drawing too many RL parrallels about the origin of the word citizen and what it meant in our world's history. Not everyone was (or even still is) a citizen. Citizen has rights conferred and protections given that non-citizens are not afforded.

And that, boys and girls, is why you don't ever want to wind up in a Nicaraguan jail!

He's a hypocritical slaver either way.

#1184
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Posté 02 novembre 2013 - 01:36

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StreetMagic wrote...

wsandista wrote...

I want an empty life and empty death. Embrace how hopeless your struggles are, worm.


We all already played ME3. Time to move on :pinched:


So ending the threat of the sentient spaceships who haunted the galaxy for millenia is somehow "empty?"

Some people.

#1185
Fast Jimmy
Posté 02 novembre 2013 - 01:38

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Xilizhra wrote...

I guess I'm drawing too many RL parrallels about the origin of the word citizen and what it meant in our world's history. Not everyone was (or even still is) a citizen. Citizen has rights conferred and protections given that non-citizens are not afforded.

And that, boys and girls, is why you don't ever want to wind up in a Nicaraguan jail!

He's a hypocritical slaver either way.


He is, you are right. Well... maybe more of a slaver enabler. He essentially takes off-the-books taxes, rather than actually doing the slave trading himself. And he sells people into slavery to keep Ferelden free, in his mind.

Maybe ironic slaver might be more appropriate? Or not, I suppose.

#1186
Fast Jimmy
Posté 02 novembre 2013 - 01:40

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EntropicAngel wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

wsandista wrote...

I want an empty life and empty death. Embrace how hopeless your struggles are, worm.


We all already played ME3. Time to move on :pinched:


So ending the threat of the sentient spaceships who haunted the galaxy for millenia is somehow "empty?"

Some people.


Faceless masses that you've saved. Versus losing the face you crafted yourself to a mad machine god's false religion.

I hope you can understand that could ring pretty hollow to many a fan.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 02 novembre 2013 - 01:41 .

#1187
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Posté 02 novembre 2013 - 01:42

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EntropicAngel wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

wsandista wrote...

I want an empty life and empty death. Embrace how hopeless your struggles are, worm.


We all already played ME3. Time to move on :pinched:


So ending the threat of the sentient spaceships who haunted the galaxy for millenia is somehow "empty?"

Some people.


At best, I'm on the mountaintop seeing the Promised Land, like Moses. Except I don't care about playing game characters in the spirit of Moses. I don't care about what non-existent NPCs get to experience in an unmade and never to be made game setting. I'd like a little more fruit from my efforts, else it doesn't happen.

#1188
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Posté 02 novembre 2013 - 01:44

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Fast Jimmy wrote...

Faceless masses that you've saved. Versus losing the face you crafted yourself to a mad machine god's false religion.

I hope you can understand that could ring pretty hollow to many a fan.


Not about what you saved, but what you ended.

I understand some distaste. But--an empty life AND empty death? That person just said that Shepard's life was empty, and ME1 and ME2, irrespective of ME3, were empty.

#1189
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Posté 02 novembre 2013 - 01:49

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StreetMagic wrote...

At best, I'm on the mountaintop seeing the Promised Land, like Moses. Except I don't care about playing game characters in the spirit of Moses. I don't care about what non-existent NPCs get to experience in an unmade and never to be made game setting. I'd like a little more fruit from my efforts, else it doesn't happen.


Moses led the children of Israel out of Egypt. You can hardly call that "empty."

#1190
GreyLycanTrope
Posté 02 novembre 2013 - 01:49

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I tend to agree with StreetMagic's sentiment, but wrong forum guys.

#1191
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Posté 02 novembre 2013 - 01:51

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EntropicAngel wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Faceless masses that you've saved. Versus losing the face you crafted yourself to a mad machine god's false religion.

I hope you can understand that could ring pretty hollow to many a fan.


Not about what you saved, but what you ended.

I understand some distaste. But--an empty life AND empty death? That person just said that Shepard's life was empty, and ME1 and ME2, irrespective of ME3, were empty.


It's empty for me by ME3. I liked exploring the worlds before, and met some cool characters in ME2.. and did an epic suicide mission, where a lot of people survived. But by the time ME3 came around, Shepard was just as miserable as a Shepard who failed that mission and lost those friends. There was no sense of personal character development. ME3 is written with a tone of extreme loss, no matter how good your gameplay success was. Whatever sense of life or success I felt was sucked dry. And the only people left he could really depend on were all new characters or some fan favorites I never connected with. So to me, it was empty. I only speak for myself though. It felt like being at a party with a bunch of coworkers or something.

edit: Sorry for the derail. I'll stop. Feel free to have the last word :)

Modifié par StreetMagic, 02 novembre 2013 - 01:53 .

#1192
dreamgazer
Posté 02 novembre 2013 - 01:52

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Greylycantrope wrote...

I tend to agree with StreetMagic's sentiment, but wrong forum guys.


I tend to agree with more of EA's sentiment (not wholly), but I agree.

#1193
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
Posté 02 novembre 2013 - 01:53

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Empty ME3 is a different statement than Empty ME1 & ME2.

But grey is right, I don't want to drag it off.

#1194
Grand Admiral Cheesecake
Posté 02 novembre 2013 - 02:02

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Morocco Mole wrote...

Elves aren't people IMO


Come now, even elves can become worthy of notice! They need only accept the certainty of the Qun.

Modifié par Grand Admiral Cheesecake, 02 novembre 2013 - 02:03 .

#1195
iOnlySignIn
Posté 02 novembre 2013 - 02:16

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StreetMagic wrote...

At best, I'm on the mountaintop seeing the Promised Land, like Moses.

No. At best you become the god emperor of the galaxy, like Leto Atreides II.

On topic, there is no meaning in death - not to the one who dies.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 02 novembre 2013 - 02:18 .

#1196
In Exile
Posté 02 novembre 2013 - 02:16

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Fast Jimmy wrote...
I guess I'm drawing too many RL parrallels about the origin of the word citizen and what it meant in our world's history. Not everyone was (or even still is) a citizen. Citizen has rights conferred and protections given that non-citizens are not afforded.


Yeah, but Loghain granted that they were entitled to protection from slavery regardless. So whether or not they're citizens is a moot point, because they have the necessary entitlement that a citizen would have. Put another way, for the purposes of the analysis, elves are functionally citizens in all the relevant ways. 

#1197
Guest_Morocco Mole_*
Posté 02 novembre 2013 - 02:33

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Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Come now, even elves can become worthy of notice! They need only accept the certainty of the Qun.


No then they become qunari

lrn 2 lore

#1198
Fast Jimmy
Posté 02 novembre 2013 - 02:50

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In Exile wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...
I guess I'm drawing too many RL parrallels about the origin of the word citizen and what it meant in our world's history. Not everyone was (or even still is) a citizen. Citizen has rights conferred and protections given that non-citizens are not afforded.


Yeah, but Loghain granted that they were entitled to protection from slavery regardless. So whether or not they're citizens is a moot point, because they have the necessary entitlement that a citizen would have. Put another way, for the purposes of the analysis, elves are functionally citizens in all the relevant ways. 


Fari enough. 

#1199
Volus Warlord
Posté 02 novembre 2013 - 03:15

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Xilizhra wrote...

I guess I'm drawing too many RL parrallels about the origin of the word citizen and what it meant in our world's history. Not everyone was (or even still is) a citizen. Citizen has rights conferred and protections given that non-citizens are not afforded.

And that, boys and girls, is why you don't ever want to wind up in a Nicaraguan jail!

He's a hypocritical slaver either way.


The Elves were the real slavers.

#1200
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Posté 02 novembre 2013 - 03:35

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iOnlySignIn wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

At best, I'm on the mountaintop seeing the Promised Land, like Moses.

No. At best you become the god emperor of the galaxy, like Leto Atreides II.

On topic, there is no meaning in death - not to the one who dies.


Interesting response, but Leto himself was like a Moses too. He took that route because his prescience showed him it was the "Golden Path", that led to an eventual promised land - a promised land that wouldn't need him. His job was merely to play God Emperor so badly and brutally for thousands of years, that people would hate the idea of living under something like that again. Paul saw this too, but was too afraid to put himself or anyone else through it.

I don't think Reaper Shep approaches it the same way. It's too self-assured.

Modifié par StreetMagic, 02 novembre 2013 - 03:37 .

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