1331 réponses à ce sujet

[sveners]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@OP:
As a rule, I do not like heroic sacrifice endings, and I will always somewhat resent a story that appears to tell me it's the best kind of ending. In DAO I had several options for surviving, and I don't feel tarnished by either of them. If you order Alistair to kill the Archdemon, this is following the Grey Warden tradition that the most senior Warden does it because he has the least lifetime left. If you let Loghain kill the Archdemon, this is his redemption, and I feel it is very appropriate. If you do the Dark Ritual, you're facing an uncertain element in the future, but you also added something interesting to it. All these options felt right for those of my Wardens who chose them, and I would hate it if the story told me they are "lesser" choices.

In ME3, I resented that Shepard's survival was tied to an ending I wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole, and even if you like Destroy, it's all too apparent that the writers didn't want Shepard to survive even there. I hate this kind of setup, both the first and the second aspect. Yeah, objectively it's not better or worse than any other type, but personally I hate it.

There is, as a rule, one thing I want out of my endings, as far as the protagonist's fate is concerned: I want to be able to imagine that my protagonist leads, or continues to lead, a meaningful life after the story has ended. I want to imagine them being in a dozen other stories, even if I never get to hear or read them. I want them to experience happy and sad moments, continue to be extraordinary in their way, have good and bad times with their LIs, maybe even breaking up. And I don't want to sacrifice significant big-picture benefits for them. The important points here are "survival" and "a dynamic, interesting life" (the latter is the reason why I don't like "happily ever after" type epilogues. Not that I've seen those lately). I don't need to be told any details, but it is important that the epilogue hints that these things are possible.

There is also one thing I hate beyond all measure: if the protagonist is divested of all that made him special in the end, downsized from larger-than-life back to normal. My reaction, and the emotional impact, would be similar to seeing them made Tranquil. 

I love you (platonically of course)

[Lotion Soronarr]

Seems ot me a lot of people find that the MUST have a happy ending with their waifu.

Death of a waifu or beloved character? Treason.

Frankly I'd do for the GoT route - no on is safe. NO ONE. Red Wedding.

[Abraham_uk]

DragonKingReborn wrote...

Perhaps the empty life tag was a poor choice of words. How about, 'life with an impossibly tarnished name and reputation'? No choice can be presented to a player at the end of a game like this one where they don't engage even fractionally with one or more of the options. It just wouldn't work. People would cry - "I don't want to do either of those things! I demand EC!". In the case of your Warden who spared the Architect, assuming a similar personality gets played through Inquisition, if you reached then end and were presented with that choice, your character wouldn't care about the worlds opinion of them, but would very much care about their own life (I'm guessing). In that case, you'd choose living with a tarnished reputation, losing everything you'd worked to achieve (possibly even losing recognition for the acts of closing the tears), but you'd live and that was all that mattered to that character. Engaged, but only with one option. Which is fine, I think.

In terms of is it what I want? Not sure, that's why we have the conversation, I guess. Other peoples ideas, both for and against a concept help me to better form my own opinion of those options. Conceptually it might be cool to see how it works, but it would need to make sense from a whole raft of points of view. Maybe it would be too hard. Maybe just not worth it?

In the end of the day I want to live.
I would only throw away my precious life if it meant saving someone else.

Live an empty life? I can live with that. I will just find a way to fill that empty void with something, anything.
Live a tarnished life? Well life has it's uncomfortable moments. It's tragic moments. It's unfulfilling moments.
Ask someone who has done terrible things if they want to live. Chances are they do, even if there are moments when they feel otherwise.


As for a video game character. I honestly couldn't care less if a fictional character died.
Commander Shepard: Dead
The Grey Warden: Dead
The Champion: Dead

Doesn't bother me. They're not real people. Even if they emote like real people.

[Dabrikishaw]

errant_knight wrote...

Hmm... I suppose if one's character backed Anders and supported his actions and beliefs that could have been considered a victory in that you helped instigate the war he wanted. For a lot of people there was no win of any kind there, though.

This for me.

[sveners]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Seems ot me a lot of people find that the MUST have a happy ending with their waifu.

Death of a waifu or beloved character? Treason.

Frankly I'd do for the GoT route - no on is safe. NO ONE. Red Wedding.

Condescending are we? Or just dismissive?

What is wrong with that option in an RPG? 

Also, you are aware that "A Dance of Fire and Ice" is a book series? As in not interactive? Why do you want to play a game of choice if those have no consequenses, good or bad?

For the record, I loved the Ultimate Sacrifice in DAO. My Amell declined the DR, and for the final hour(s) I played with a lump in my throat, knowing it would end in death. Yet I played on, and thoroughly enjoyed the finale and epilogue.

Also... waifu?

Modifié par sveners, 28 octobre 2013 - 09:49 .

[Abraham_uk]

Removed

Modifié par Abraham_uk, 29 octobre 2013 - 05:32 .

[Osena109]

 After the hole fallout 3 were you Die at the end  was done to death it was  bad thing alot of the games of that time did it you die so i don't want to see it return so they can nickle and dimes us later dor dlc were you make it  bioware has a bad habbit of killing of its PC like sharpard he gets killed in Mass effect 2 returns and Dies agin in Mass effect 3 lol

[Abraham_uk]

Osena109 wrote...

 After the hole fallout 3 were you Die at the end  was done to death it was  bad thing alot of the games of that time did it you die so i don't want to see it return so they can nickle and dimes us later dor dlc were you make it  bioware has a bad habbit of killing of its PC like sharpard he gets killed in Mass effect 2 returns and Dies agin in Mass effect 3 lol

In both Mass Effect 4 (or whatever it's called) and Dragon Age Inquisition they're going to introduce new protagonists.
Maybe instead of dying, perhaps they should mysteriously disappear .

Modifié par Abraham_uk, 28 octobre 2013 - 10:18 .

[Osena109]

Abraham_uk wrote...

Osena109 wrote...

 After the hole fallout 3 were you Die at the end  was done to death it was  bad thing alot of the games of that time did it you die so i don't want to see it return so they can nickle and dimes us later dor dlc were you make it  bioware has a bad habbit of killing of its PC like sharpard he gets killed in Mass effect 2 returns and Dies agin in Mass effect 3 lol

In both Mass Effect 4 (or whatever it's called) and Dragon Age Inquisition they're going to introduce new protagonists.
Maybe instead of dying, perhaps they should mysteriously disappear .

no you misunderstand me just don't wand the Protagonist to die in  Dragon age Inqunistion  or Mass effect 4 just so they can charge  us for DLC to bring them back for anther Quest or mission lol

[DragonKingReborn]

Victory does taste sweetest when failure was a possibility, I agree. But I don't think that can be an option here. If you fail - and the game ends - then Bioware have a nightmare on their hands with regards to world state OR, the next DA game simply retcons your failure, or inserts future events that correct your failure. Either of those would likely send the fanbase - probably quite rightly - into an uncontrollable rage. The game 'end' needs to be a victory, as in, Veil closed, demons vanquished (or at least most of them), and the world gets to take a breath. The degrees of success, or the final pathway to success can change though. One of the prompts for me to make this thread was the endless "does anyone else want/not want to see the Warden/Hawke again?" type threads. These characters (and their actions) now belong to Bioware, we can't control them. Having a protagonist die would remove (theoretically) the possibility of that character being subjected to the 'gone, just like the Warden' treatment. Unless of course, that was done specifically for something in DA:I. Then, by all means, disappear away.

[CroGamer002]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Abraham_uk wrote...

MisanthropePrime wrote...

To accept death is to accept weakness. The great do not die.

So in order to be great, you must be immortal.

Makes sense to me.

Most Bioware series seem to have an ending where immortality/godhood is achieved. Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect... there definitely seems to be a precedent for doing something morally/ethically questionable to seize the reins of unending existence and ultimate power. 

And that's why I'm pro-Control ending.

Well, one of the reasons.

[Iakus]

sveners wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Seems ot me a lot of people find that the MUST have a happy ending with their waifu.

Death of a waifu or beloved character? Treason.

Frankly I'd do for the GoT route - no on is safe. NO ONE. Red Wedding.

Condescending are we? Or just dismissive?

What is wrong with that option in an RPG? 

Also, you are aware that "A Dance of Fire and Ice" is a book series? As in not interactive? Why do you want to play a game of choice if those have no consequenses, good or bad?

For the record, I loved the Ultimate Sacrifice in DAO. My Amell declined the DR, and for the final hour(s) I played with a lump in my throat, knowing it would end in death. Yet I played on, and thoroughly enjoyed the finale and epilogue.

Also... waifu?

Choice?  In a choice-based RPG?

What kind of crazy talk is this?  

[KC_Prototype]

khariuade wrote...

mate let me say this. i hate those types of ending.. it always feels "forced" , i dont mind them being in the game but i want an ending where i get the cake and i get to eat it

e.g Survive, defeat villain, rainbows etc ;p

Agreed. I want to be a relished hero and live to get all the glory and wenches.

[Wulfram]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Seems ot me a lot of people find that the MUST have a happy ending with their waifu.

Death of a waifu or beloved character? Treason.

Frankly I'd do for the GoT route - no on is safe. NO ONE. Red Wedding.

In an RPG, there should be the option not to marry Jeyne, and thus not get the Red Wedding.

[ruggly]

An ending with "an empty life" is far more interesting to me than a heroic sacrifice. When it came to ME3, I didn't really like being forced to sacrifice the PC (at the time I first finished it, I didn't know Shepard could live in high EMS destroy). It just seems to be a cheap way to end the character's story while trying make me feel something. It didn't work. And I think that's part of the reason I pick destroy, it seems to come with the most flaws, and that makes it much more interesting to me than a "here comes Space Jesus to die for your sins" sort of thing.

It should be an option, for sure, but don't make it the only option.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Wulfram wrote...

In an RPG, there should be the option not to marry Jeyne, and thus not get the Red Wedding.

This.

I don't mind my choices having consequences, but they need to be my choices.

[Star fury]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Seems ot me a lot of people find that the MUST have a happy ending with their waifu.

Death of a waifu or beloved character? Treason.

Frankly I'd do for the GoT route - no on is safe. NO ONE. Red Wedding.

Inane analogy. Videogames and books/films are a BIT different.

[Lotion Soronarr]

iakus wrote...

sveners wrote...
Also, you are aware that "A Dance of Fire and Ice" is a book series? As in not interactive? Why do you want to play a game of choice if those have no consequenses, good or bad?

Choice?  In a choice-based RPG?

What kind of crazy talk is this?  

Alas, a lot of poeple are confusing "choice" with "conseuquence I want" or "ending I want".

Control of what you PC choses - how he reacts to news/situation, what command he gives - is expected.
Controling the outcome of the choices is not.

If the game has 10 endings, but you arent' satisfied with them, does that make it a game without choice? No. But some people will react that way. They want to control the entire plot and outcome, not just the character.

[David7204]

You'd be more convincing if you dropped the 'waifu' nonsense.

Choices that matter is not only an opportunity, it's an obligation. And yes, the obligation inevitably cuts off a great deal of storytelling avenues. So be it.

The exact same is true of foreshadowing. Audiences are generally justified in expecting characters not to drop dead without foreshadowing. That cuts off many storytelling avenues as well.

Modifié par David7204, 29 octobre 2013 - 07:11 .

[Killdren88]

Just stick to the Origins Formula where people can have the end they want. Sure Bioware can even add to the options tarnished life and such. But I don't want to be forced down a particular paths I have no control over. (I'm looking at you Hudson.) But yeah I would not mind a failed state. Adds to the urgency to the game makes you want to work harder to win.

Modifié par Killdren88, 29 octobre 2013 - 07:14 .

[David7204]

Abraham_uk wrote...

Honestly. I don't mind a "Best Possible Ending" where all the main characters live and the antagonists lose, as long as that ending is really difficult to achieve.

Imagine playing the game through 17 times getting all kinds variations of bad endings before achieving the one good ending. You've saved the day! Everyone lives!

Finally you made the right choices and you were rewarded with the happy ending. Victory tastes sweetest when failure was a possibility.

I would suggest you be very careful with this attitude.

Remember what this is. It's a game.

Not a chore. Not a headache. Not an exam. Not work. A game. Entertainment. A mass marketed product designed to appeal and be beatable with a minimum of frustration for a wide variety of people and skill levels.

As it should be.

Whatever challenges the game presents are challenges that a reasonable intelligent child should be able to solve the first time through.

So careful what you're defining as 'really difficult.'

Modifié par David7204, 29 octobre 2013 - 07:16 .

[AlanC9]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Alas, a lot of poeple are confusing "choice" with "conseuquence I want" or "ending I want".

I think this is more often merely confused rhetoric, rather than a substantive position. 

[Lotion Soronarr]

David7204 wrote...
The exact same is true of foreshadowing. Audiences are generally justified in expecting characters not to drop dead without foreshadowing. That cuts off many storytelling avenues as well.

Foreshadowing generally doesn't exist in RL.
Characters dying unexpectedly is part of real life. And death of a cahracter opens as many storytelling avenues as it closes.

[David7204]

Going to the bathroom is also part of real life. Tedious and pointless work is part of real life. Boring people with boring lives are part of real life. It doesn't matter. We don't tell stories about those things.

Things don't happen to people because they're in stories. They're in stories because things happen to them.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

David7204 wrote...
The exact same is true of foreshadowing. Audiences are generally justified in expecting characters not to drop dead without foreshadowing. That cuts off many storytelling avenues as well.

Foreshadowing generally doesn't exist in RL.
Characters dying unexpectedly is part of real life. And death of a cahracter opens as many storytelling avenues as it closes.

Exactly. Sudden and random deaths in games is not always a bad thing. It adds suspense and edge in my opinion.