1331 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Maybe if they would get Troy Baker to do the voice of the PC in BioWare's games we might get to hear some epic speeches that are actually epic (as long as the speech is written well of course).

After his last role in a BioWare game I don't see him being warmly welcomed

That's not Troy's fault, but BioWare's fault for writing a terrible character with terribly cheesy lines.


Troy Baker did The Joker (Batman Arham Origins), Booker (Bioshock Infinite), Joel (The Last of Us) and Two-Face (Batman Arham City). The man clearly has proven himself. Everyone who knows about him, knows he's one of the most talented voice-actors around.

I know he is a really good VA, but I doubt BioWare would want to open that can of worms

[Steelcan]

eluvianix wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I find Hale vastly better than Meer. I suppose it comes down to opinion again.

I don't see how you/-

Oh wait you are a misandrist that's why.....

Rude.

True

[The Heretic of Time]

Xilizhra wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Your opinion is invalid Xil since you admittingly never played as maleShep nor did you ever play as Renegade.

As someone who played both genders and both paths I can say that Mark Meer is vastly better than Jennifer Hale in Mass Effect, though it's pretty clear Mark Meer feels more comfortable doing the Renegade lines, while Hale feels more comfortable doing the Paragon lines. Most of Meer's Paragon lines sucked, and all of Hale's Renegade lines sucked terribly.

I actually tried a Maleshep once, but the voice turned me off terribly.

Unless you did an entire playthrough as maleShep your opinion is still invalid since you basically don't know what you're talking about.

You can come back and try again when you did 4 full playthroughs with both a paragon male, a renegade male, a paragon female and a renegade female Shepard.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 02 novembre 2013 - 04:23 .

[Hellion Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

Too old and too male, I take it?

Is Meer older than Hale?

Hale is 41. I can't find Meer's age though.

[Xilizhra]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Your opinion is invalid Xil since you admittingly never played as maleShep nor did you ever play as Renegade.

As someone who played both genders and both paths I can say that Mark Meer is vastly better than Jennifer Hale in Mass Effect, though it's pretty clear Mark Meer feels more comfortable doing the Renegade lines, while Hale feels more comfortable doing the Paragon lines. Most of Meer's Paragon lines sucked, and all of Hale's Renegade lines sucked terribly.

I actually tried a Maleshep once, but the voice turned me off terribly.

Unless you did an entire playthrough as maleShep your opinion is still invalid since you basically don't know what you're talking about.

You can come back and try again when you did 4 full playthroughs with both a paragon male, a renegade male, a paragon female and a renegade female Shepard.

Didn't you already agree with me that Hale is better at Paragon?

[Br3admax]

Xilizhra wrote...

Too old and too male, I take it?

Is Meer older than Hale?

Would that really matter when talking about a voice? 

[Plaintiff]

Heretic_Hanar wrote...
You're confusing the word "empathy"  with "sympathy".

I'm really not.

Not true at all. Did you even play the game? It's Elizabeth who does all the important stuff, Booker merely acts as her bodyguard.

Booker's actions drive the story much more than Elizabeth's. She doesn't even do anything to facilitate her own escape in the multiple instances where she's taken captive.

Yes, he's her bodyguard. He's still the protagonist. Bodyguards can be protagonists. His job in the world has nothing to do with his place in the narrative mechanics.

At first, Booker seems to be the chief actor, but the tables are quickly turned as soon as your plan to take the zepplin is sabotaged after which you start to rely on Elizabeth's tearing powers more and more. It's from that moment on that Elizabeth becomes more and more the chief actor, while Booker more and more goes along with whatever the heck is happening to them. At the end of Bioshock Infinite, the roles are completely reversed. Elizabeth now holds all the cards and takes all the actions. Booker is completely passive and completely goes along with Elizabeth and what she tells him.

Elizabeth only uses her tearing powers at Booker's instruction. She doesn't become the protagonist at the end, or at any point. She becomes a deus ex machina.

Booker is not passive, he makes a choice when he could refuse.

If the reader does not repond he will most likely not like the story and put it aside. That's how it works. Empathy for the protagonist is key in order for a story to be interesting.

I don't have to like a story for it to be interesting.

It goes the other way around too. Elizabeth needs Booker to obtain her goal. They need each other.

But Booker is still the protagonist. He is still the chief actor. Elizabeth needs Booker a damn sight more than he needs her. She can't wander away for even five minutes without getting herself captured again.

Elizabeth's goals aren't any less important in BS:I than Booker's goals and in fact, halfway through the story, Booker almost completely throws aside his own goals and completely focusses on Elizabeth's goals instead. He is there to help her, not the other way around.

That's not what happens at all. Elizabeth and Booker both put aside their personal goals in order to serve the much larger goal of putting an end to Comstock and Columbia, which it transpires that only Booker can do. Even with all her power, Elizabeth still needs Booker in order to accomplish that.

Nope, sorry, you're wrong.

The fact that Booker is Elizabeth's father doesn't even play a role until the very end. It certainly adds more drama ot the story, but it's NOT a KEY factor of the story.

It's the key to everything. If Booker hadn't sold Elizabeth to Comstock, the story would not be happening at all. The most important revelation in the plot isn't that Elizabeth is Booker's daughter, it's that Booker and Comstock are the same person. Elizabeth's predicament is just a flow-on consequence of that fact.

Replace Booker with some other random bloke who can shoot stuff and the narrative would still work. The story would still be in place. The Lutece twins could basically have chosen anyone with sufficient skills to rescue Elizabeth. They just happen to choose Booker because he was the ideal man for the job and because the narrative is obviously more dramatic and interesting this way.

Who the Lutece twins choose to rescue Elizabeth doesn't even matter at all, because that's not what the story's really about.

The story is really about destroying Columbia. Or more specifically, un-making it. And that can't happen without Booker. But if Elizabeth were absent, there would still be the Lutece's and their dimension-hopping machinary to fulfill the goal of getting Booker where he needs to be for the plot to happen.

Instead of having Elizabeth to open tears and dispense exposition, Booker could've been tasked with retrieving a special portal-making device, and then figured out the pseudo-science by himself, or by reading about it, or a Lutece sibling could've popped up and told him.

But you can't replace Elizabeth. She is KEY to the story. She is the most important character which everything revolves around. Replace her, and the story would completely fall apart.

Elizabeth is a tool being used by other people. The only reason the story seems to revolve around her is because everybody else wants her. She's the One Ring. She's a MacGuffin, a plot coupon. She could be an inanimate object with no lines at all and the story would still function, because what she is matters a lot less than what other characters do with or to her.

She only has value because other characters arbitrarily assign it to her. If Comstock had settled for adopting a child from within his own dimension, and grooming them to become his destroyer of worlds, the story would never have happened, because Booker would have no reason to go to Comstock's universe. But Comstock, out of sheer vanity, insisted on having a child who shared his DNA.

If Elizabeth had not been Booker's daughter, she wouldn't be in the predicament that she is in.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 02 novembre 2013 - 04:28 .

[Br3admax]

eluvianix wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Too old and too male, I take it?

Is Meer older than Hale?

Hale is 41. I can't find Meer's age though.

Me either, but voices don't age much after puberty so there is really no point in asking, at least not for many decades.

[The Heretic of Time]

Xilizhra wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Your opinion is invalid Xil since you admittingly never played as maleShep nor did you ever play as Renegade.

As someone who played both genders and both paths I can say that Mark Meer is vastly better than Jennifer Hale in Mass Effect, though it's pretty clear Mark Meer feels more comfortable doing the Renegade lines, while Hale feels more comfortable doing the Paragon lines. Most of Meer's Paragon lines sucked, and all of Hale's Renegade lines sucked terribly.

I actually tried a Maleshep once, but the voice turned me off terribly.

Unless you did an entire playthrough as maleShep your opinion is still invalid since you basically don't know what you're talking about.

You can come back and try again when you did 4 full playthroughs with both a paragon male, a renegade male, a paragon female and a renegade female Shepard.

Didn't you already agree with me that Hale is better at Paragon?

In some rare cases, yes. Mostly the charm dialogue options (the blue auto-win option in the upper-left corner).

But that is only because Mark Meer sucked more at those lines. Hale isn't by any means good as commander Shepard, not even a paragon Shepard.

In all other cases (neutral, renegade and auto-dialogue), Mark Meer outshined Jennifer Hale, especially in ME3.

[Xilizhra]

In some rare cases, yes. Mostly the charm dialogue options (the blue auto-win option in the upper-left corner).

But that is only because Mark Meer sucked more at those lines. Hale isn't by any means good as commander Shepard, not even a paragon Shepard.

In all other cases (neutral, renegade and auto-dialogue), Mark Meer outshined Jennifer Hale, especially in ME3.

And I thought that Hale handled all that very well. You can think that Meer is better, but I hardly believe that Hale was bad. I very much enjoyed her work all throughout ME.

[Steelcan]

I really don't see why people like hale more, her voice inflections are off, her timing all wrong, she half whispers most of her lines, she sounds bored in the other half, she has absolutely no emotion in the majority of her renegade lines (especially dud whenever she should be angry or mad)

Modifié par Steelcan, 02 novembre 2013 - 04:31 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Steelcan wrote...

I really don't see why people like hale more, her voice inflections are off, her timing all wrong, she half whispers most of her lines, she sounds bored in the other half, she has absolutely no emotion in the majority of her renegade lines (especially dud whenever she should be angry or mad)

Not only that but Meer has better waifu dialogue, especially with the blueberry.

[spirosz]

I love Hale's work as Bastila, not so much Shepard.

[Br3admax]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Me either, but voices don't age much after puberty so there is really no point in asking, at least not for many decades.

I disagree.

Splinter Cell Blacklist's VA for Fischer sounded like a fresh recruit just off The Farm (at 34) compared to Ironside--compared to Ironside from even the earliest SC game, when he was 52.

Voice can change over the years. 

Jennifer Hale now is the same Jennifer Hale from 2003. 

[Hellion Rex]

Br3ad wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Me either, but voices don't age much after puberty so there is really no point in asking, at least not for many decades.

I disagree.

Splinter Cell Blacklist's VA for Fischer sounded like a fresh recruit just off The Farm (at 34) compared to Ironside--compared to Ironside from even the earliest SC game, when he was 52.

Voice can change over the years. 

Jennifer Hale now is the same Jennifer Hale from 2003. 

That is just one person however.

[Br3admax]

eluvianix wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Me either, but voices don't age much after puberty so there is really no point in asking, at least not for many decades.

I disagree.

Splinter Cell Blacklist's VA for Fischer sounded like a fresh recruit just off The Farm (at 34) compared to Ironside--compared to Ironside from even the earliest SC game, when he was 52.

Voice can change over the years. 

Jennifer Hale now is the same Jennifer Hale from 2003. 

That is just one person however.

Yeah, the one person we are talking about. Just saying. 

[Br3admax]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Jennifer Hale now is the same Jennifer Hale from 2003. 

I'll accept that the difference between 30 and 40 is slight. Not the same as the difference between 15 and 40, though.

Depends. I guess. Most people I know of though sound relatively the same. Me hearing video recordings of such, not me hearing personally.  Not to mention that puberty does not end at 15. :/ 

Modifié par Br3ad, 02 novembre 2013 - 04:47 .

[dreamgazer]

Steelcan wrote...

I really don't see why people like hale more, her voice inflections are off, her timing all wrong, she half whispers most of her lines, she sounds bored in the other half, she has absolutely no emotion in the majority of her renegade lines (especially dud whenever she should be angry or mad)

Sounds like you're describing the fluctuations in an actual performance, something I wish Meer would have done a whole lot more of in ME1 and ME2, instead of unengaging, mechanical droning.  Thankfully, he does get progressively better.

[Steelcan]

dreamgazer wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

I really don't see why people like hale more, her voice inflections are off, her timing all wrong, she half whispers most of her lines, she sounds bored in the other half, she has absolutely no emotion in the majority of her renegade lines (especially dud whenever she should be angry or mad)

Sounds like you're describing the fluctuations in an actual performance, something I wish Meer would have done a whole lot more of in ME1 and ME2, instead of unengaging, mechanical droning.  Thankfully, he does get progressively better.

I don't mind an actor mixing up how they deliver lines, but for the most part I find myself wasking "why did she satrt whispering of all sudden?"  "Where is the anger in this?" or "Does she have somewhere else she'd rather be right now?"

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Steelcan wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

I really don't see why people like hale more, her voice inflections are off, her timing all wrong, she half whispers most of her lines, she sounds bored in the other half, she has absolutely no emotion in the majority of her renegade lines (especially dud whenever she should be angry or mad)

Sounds like you're describing the fluctuations in an actual performance, something I wish Meer would have done a whole lot more of in ME1 and ME2, instead of unengaging, mechanical droning.  Thankfully, he does get progressively better.

I don't mind an actor mixing up how they deliver lines, but for the most part I find myself wasking "why did she satrt whispering of all sudden?"  "Where is the anger in this?" or "Does she have somewhere else she'd rather be right now?"

And of course "That poor husbando! Stranger danger! Stranger danger!"

[RabbitWrath]

Oh hey it's one of these again...

But more so to point.. In the end what matters is not what you may think ... but what the world thinks of you and the deeds you've done and remembered for if at all.

So whatever you choose ... will not be as big as who comes after you.

[Seboist]

Steelcan wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Heretic_Hanar wrote...

Maybe if they would get Troy Baker to do the voice of the PC in BioWare's games we might get to hear some epic speeches that are actually epic (as long as the speech is written well of course).

After his last role in a BioWare game I don't see him being warmly welcomed

That's not Troy's fault, but BioWare's fault for writing a terrible character with terribly cheesy lines.


Troy Baker did The Joker (Batman Arham Origins), Booker (Bioshock Infinite), Joel (The Last of Us) and Two-Face (Batman Arham City). The man clearly has proven himself. Everyone who knows about him, knows he's one of the most talented voice-actors around.

I know he is a really good VA, but I doubt BioWare would want to open that can of worms

Troy has Bioware to credit for the lowest point of his career. Hopefully he stays clear from them from now on.

[The Heretic of Time]

[quote]Plaintiff wrote...

[quote]Heretic_Hanar wrote...
You're confusing the word "empathy"  with "sympathy".[/quote]
I'm really not.
[/quote]
It seems like you are though. Because you were wrongly connecting empathy to morality (as if you can't feel empathy for an amoral character), which has nothing to do with each other.


[quote]Plaintiff wrote...

Booker's actions drive the story much more than Elizabeth's. She doesn't even do anything to facilitate her own escape in the multiple instances where she's taken captive.
[/quote]
Oh really? Let's see:

It's Elizabeth who makes the tears. It's Elizabeth who comes up with the idea to hop through dimensions with her tearing powers. It's Elizabeth who attacked New York (it's this very action that made the Lutece twins decide to get Booker to fix this mess).  It's Elizabeth who then summons Booker and sets him on the right path again. It's Elizabeth who destroys Columbia (from her dimension), it's Elizabeth who then gains godly powers and explains the multiverse to Booker and in the end it's Elizabeth who explains Booker he is Comstock and it's Elizabeth who drowns him at the key point in time.

What does Booker do all that time? Not much, aside from protecting her ass and shooting stuff.



[quote]Plaintiff wrote...

Elizabeth only uses her tearing powers at Booker's instruction. She doesn't become the protagonist at the end, or at any point. She becomes a deus ex machina.[/quote]

I don't think you know what Deus Ex Machina means and I already explained in this same post how Elizabeth does very much becomes the protagonist at the end, or at least equally to Booker.

Aftert thinking this through, I think Elizabeth and Booker are BOTH protagonists.



[quote]Plaintiff wrote...

Booker is not passive, he makes a choice when he could refuse.
[/quote]

Not at all. It's Elizabeth who makes that choice for him. I didn't hear Booker say: "Okay, you can kill me now." Elizabeth did that without his permission. She made the final decision, not Booker.


[quote]Plaintiff wrote...

But Booker is still the protagonist. He is still the chief actor. Elizabeth needs Booker a damn sight more than he needs her. She can't wander away for even five minutes without getting herself captured again.
[/quote]
And I already explained (in this post) how this isn't true.


[quote]Plaintiff wrote...

That's not what happens at all. Elizabeth and Booker both put aside their personal goals in order to serve the much larger goal of putting an end to Comstock and Columbia, which it transpires that only Booker can do. Even with all her power, Elizabeth still needs Booker in order to accomplish that.
[/quote]
Yes, and thus they BOTH become protagonists at that point.

And Booker needs Elizabeth as much as Elizabeth needs him. They're both equally important to the plot.


[quote]Plaintiff wrote...

The story is really about destroying Columbia. Or more specifically, un-making it. And that can't happen without Booker.
[/quote]

And thaty can't happen without Elizabeth either.


[quote]Plaintiff wrote...

But if Elizabeth were absent, there would still be the Lutece's and their dimension-hopping machinary to fulfill the goal of getting Booker where he needs to be for the plot to happen.[/quote]

The Lutece dimension-hopping machinary isn't up for the task. Not to mention that without Elizabeth as a PERSON, the whole scenario of Bioshock Infinite would not and could not have happened.


[quote]Plaintiff wrote...

Elizabeth is a tool being used by other people. The only reason the story seems to revolve around her is because everybody else wants her. She's the One Ring. She's a MacGuffin, a plot coupon. She could be an inanimate object with no lines at all and the story would still function, because what she is matters a lot less than what other characters do with or to her.
[/quote]
First of all, Lord of The Rings is very much about the One Ring, the story fo LOTR revolves around the one ring in the same way the story of BS:I revolves around Elizabeth. So you're only proving my point here, not rebuking it.

Second; I already explained how Elizabeth is very important as a person, not just as a tool.


[quote]Plaintiff wrote...

If Comstock had settled for adopting a child from within his own dimension, and grooming them to become his destroyer of worlds, the story would never have happened, because Booker would have no reason to go to Comstock's universe. But Comstock, out of sheer vanity, insisted on having a child who shared his DNA.
[/quote]
EXACTLY! Which is EXACTLY the reason why Elizabeth as a person is so friggin important and central to the story! Without her, the story could not have happened. THANK YOU for finally seeing my point and agreeing with it.