1331 réponses à ce sujet

[AresKeith]

Filament wrote...

That seems like a leading question to me. I choose meaningful life.

Mandarin says no

Modifié par AresKeith, 29 octobre 2013 - 11:44 .

[Xilizhra]

You do realize your companions, throughout the course of DA:O -
1. Get beaten to the ground and knocked unconscious amidst masses of Darkspawn corpses.
2. Get Darkspawn blood all over their faces and bodies.
3. Constantly are near Darkspawn.

1 might not be any more canon than Mario dying if you miss a step, 2 only applies to melee combatants and all but one of those are either immune or wearing heavy armor, and 3 might not be healthy in the long term, but isn't instant death.

So yes, it's plot armor.

From an out-of-game perspective it might be, but everything also has an in-universe explanation of some kind, assuming that the universe has any kind of internal cohesion (and if it doesn't, why are we discussing plot that requires internal cohesion to function at all?).

[Mr.House]

Carver/Bethany gets the blight just for being in the deep roads, so yes it's plot armor.

[Xilizhra]

Mr.House wrote...

Carver/Bethany gets the blight just for being in the deep roads, so yes it's plot armor.

Eh, illness takes on some people and doesn't on others. Wilhelm, for instance, ventured into the Deep Roads many times and never got sick.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 29 octobre 2013 - 11:52 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Mr.House wrote...

I bet you Davey started playing video games this generation. Why? Because in past generations games where a challenge, and somewhere where very very very hard, BUT THEY WHERE STILL FUN AND REWARDING.

David always exaggerates when this argument crops up. The level of challenge people pose in generally not that high, and the level of challenge the wider consumer base is capable of handling is a lot higher than he thinks. 

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 29 octobre 2013 - 11:54 .

[Icy Magebane]

I can only think of one game where this happened and it didn't completely ****** me off. Even then, I didn't really like it, but the game was exceptionally good, so I just kind of let it slide. While I can understand others thinking it's okay to die knowing that you saved the world, I'd never be fine with that... If you don't survive, what difference does it really make?

I think it's better to just expect a bad ending these days and enjoy the moments leading up to it, because it's not really up to us how these things go.

[Br3admax]

Xilizhra wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Carver/Bethany gets the blight just for being in the deep roads, so yes it's plot armor.

Eh, illness takes on some people and doesn't on others. Wilhelm, for instance, ventured into the Deep Roads many times and never got sick.

So...plot armor? 

[GreyLycanTrope]

As I general rule I'm fine with protags dying so long as it's done well, by which I mean it feels like the character's death actually reflects the character I RPed and the circumstances don't feel forced.

On the other hand...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I don't want ****ty false dichotomies.

This. Can't we get a fullfiling life as an option as well? What's with the doom and gloom?

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 30 octobre 2013 - 12:13 .

[Mr.House]

Xilizhra wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Carver/Bethany gets the blight just for being in the deep roads, so yes it's plot armor.

Eh, illness takes on some people and doesn't on others. Wilhelm, for instance, ventured into the Deep Roads many times and never got sick.

So, plot armor. Like many of us have stated.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Yeah, it does seem that entertainment is getting more and more depressing over time.

I used to think the hero winning and riding off into the sunset was cliche. Now the hero dying is pretty cliche.

Hero dying and winning is the new norm, so now there's a need for a new type of "dark ending".

I purpose a "the hero dies and the hero fails" being the main defult ending you get if you don't do enough to solve the problem.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Greylycantrope wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
I don't want ****ty false dichotomies.

This. Can't we get a fullfiling life as an option as well? What's with the doom and gloom?

Aaaaaaaaaall I hear is doooooooooom and gloom!

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 30 octobre 2013 - 12:21 .

[Allan Schumacher]

If I stand before ten doors, and all of them have tigers behind them, that may also be a choice, but is there a point to it?

Many people (fans of the old school especially) argue yes. And I can see the value in their point and in many ways I agree. Even if you're shoe horned down a particular path, and in a video game plot there ARE limits to the options available, that choice is still your choice, even if the consequences end up the same.

Consider another alternative to your example.... would it be preferable to stand in front of only a single door?

This is actually what a lot of people reference to when they discuss why they love the older text style dialogues, and the specifics of the infamous Torment picture that happens all the time.

A lot of the issue people had with the ME3 original ending was that Shepard couldn't question the Catalyst. They felt like the agency over their character was stripped as a result. Even if things still end up the same, the idea of being allowed to express the view that you wanted is still important to defining your character.

I would suggest you be very careful with this attitude.

Remember what this is. It's a game.

Not a chore. Not a headache. Not an exam. Not work. A game. Entertainment. A mass marketed product designed to appeal and be beatable with a minimum of frustration for a wide variety of people and skill levels.

As it should be.

Whatever challenges the game presents are challenges that a reasonable intelligent child should be able to solve the first time through.

So careful what you're defining as 'really difficult.'

Likewise, remember that people want different things out of games. I disagree with the notion that the game's challenges should be solved by a child, especially given that our target audience is decidedly not children.

People get different things out of their games. I, personally, like the idea of mutually exclusive choice where not all things can be solved ideally. If you have 4 things, after I do the third the 4th fails because I spent my time elsewhere.

I also appreciate solutions that require more depth as well.


In order to satisfy your criteria, all we need is for the game to be completable. Nothing says it needs to be completed optimally.

[spirosz]

Greylycantrope wrote...

As I general rule I'm fine with protags dying so long as it's done well, by which I mean it feels like the character's death actually reflects the character I RPed and the circumstances don't feel forced.

On the other hand...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I don't want ****ty false dichotomies.

This. Can't we get a fullfiling life as an option as well? What's with the doom and gloom?

[Allan Schumacher]

Br3ad wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Carver/Bethany gets the blight just for being in the deep roads, so yes it's plot armor.

Eh, illness takes on some people and doesn't on others. Wilhelm, for instance, ventured into the Deep Roads many times and never got sick.

So...plot armor? 

Yeah. I wouldn't overthink things too much for this, as on some level the PC and the party members have their status as being special little snowflakes in large part because strict adherence to the lore would ultimately make the game less enjoyable.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Seraph Cross wrote...

How about an "Earn your happy ending"

I do like those.

[wolfhowwl]

David7204 wrote...

Abraham_uk wrote...

Honestly. I don't mind a "Best Possible Ending" where all the main characters live and the antagonists lose, as long as that ending is really difficult to achieve.

Imagine playing the game through 17 times getting all kinds variations of bad endings before achieving the one good ending. You've saved the day! Everyone lives!

Finally you made the right choices and you were rewarded with the happy ending. Victory tastes sweetest when failure was a possibility.

I would suggest you be very careful with this attitude.

Remember what this is. It's a game.

Not a chore. Not a headache. Not an exam. Not work. A game. Entertainment. A mass marketed product designed to appeal and be beatable with a minimum of frustration for a wide variety of people and skill levels.

As it should be.

Whatever challenges the game presents are challenges that a reasonable intelligent child should be able to solve the first time through.

So careful what you're defining as 'really difficult.'

I can smell the stench of casualized AAA failure.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Seraph Cross wrote...

How about an "Earn your happy ending"

I do like those.

Works best when combined with a Golden Ending.

Granted, the golden ending is to be discarded if you can better create some kind of ending based on how your choices shaped the galaxy. My idea of a golden ending involves 11 of the 20 possible squadmates through the trilogy dead, the alliance in a state of shambles, and Shepard (with Miranda) poised to make a renewed Cerberus the new dominant, if hidden and clandestine, sword of humanity using Reaper tech from the destroyed Reapers to put them at the forefront. Endings like Fallout, where a player can decide which ending works best for them.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 30 octobre 2013 - 12:48 .