249 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexanderCousland]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
Actually, you're wrong. It's YOUR problem. Because, by and large, I don't have a problem with Bioware's approach to attempt to explain things in their game. And, as I've now said multiple times, David Gaider, Lead Writer of the DA series and the heavy lifter when it comes to the world-building section of the setting and lore, says they WON'T introduce any new ethnicities into the setting without an explanation. 

So Bioware is doing it the way I'd prefer. It's YOUR problem if you want them to do it differently. 

Angry much?

Post That Gaider Quote. Please.
Look. Bioware is already Including POC and they won't stop. So they are actually doing what I want, and If Vivienne is any indication they are getting pretty good at it. Does she need to explain herself to you as well? Or Are are you just assuming she's from Rivain because she's Black? 

[sandalisthemaker]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...
But if, suddenly, there is a population of Hispanic looking NPCs milling around the streets of Orlais.

• Here is the kind of overreaction Im talking about.  Nobody is trying to drop Mexico in Thedas and no one region Inside of Thedas belongs to any skin color. People of any color can be from anywhere in Thedas and that need not be explained so people with privilege can feel better.

I feel like looping back to the Jade Empire discussion, since you seem to be implying white people can't play games with non-whites in them without them needing to check their privilege. But that topic has already come up to no avail to anyone. 

Your quarrels aren't with me. They are with Bioware for making a predominantly white setting for their game and for (in my opinion, smartly) adhering to a policy of trying to manage any changes to that setting through logical, in game explanations or events. If you don't like the fact that Bioware did/is doing those things, sorry Jack. I'm not the person you should be mad with.  

Weren't you going to abstain?  
For shame!
THERE SHALL BE ASIANS. DEAL WITH IT!!!!!!11!
And there very well could be "Hispanic looking" NPC's.
Antiva-  They are inspired by Mediterranean cultures-  Italy and Spain. And they speak with Spanish accents.
Rivain- inspired by Medieval Spain according to devs.

Plus, Hispanic is an ethnicity and therefore hispanics can be white, black, or any skin color in between.

Modifié par sandalisthemaker, 30 octobre 2013 - 02:06 .

[AresKeith]

FreshIstay wrote...

Angry much?

Post That Gaider Quote. Please.
Look. Bioware is already Including POC and they won't stop. So they are actually doing what I want, and If Vivienne is any indication they are getting pretty good at it. Does she need to explain herself to you as well? Or Are are you just assuming she's from Rivain because she's Black? 

Well because of her skin, she either from Rivain or her parents (or anyone in her bloodline) is from Rivain

Especially since mages in the Circle aren't always from the same nation

[Fast Jimmy]

syllogi wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

I agree. But to be clear, I Dont think anyone here was advocating for Whites to become a minority in numbers.
I just think people jumped to the conclusion that More Minorities means "Colored people taking over Thedas in drones". Overreaction.

I get the impression both "sides" are talking past each other a bit, and arguing against more extreme positions than the other is actually advocating

I disagree. FreshIsStay is arguing Bioware should he able to change the entire appearance and demographic of their world without even an attempt at an explanation. To me, that's QUITE extreme. 

So did you have a problem with qunari being retconned with no in game explanation in DA2?

The Qunari were retconned, but an attempt was made to explain it - that there are hornless Qunari, that since they look more "normal," the hornless Qunari are more often sent out to foreign lands and that the description given in DA:O's lore was from people who had only meant the "bronze giant" form of Qunari.

It didn't make me the happiest camper in the world, but it was an attempt. 



I did not, however, abide the Elven changes, where we were given no explanation and which violated aspects of the lore, such as Elves being chosen for servants/ages because of their beauty, but then Elves in DA2 looking more "beastial" and, frankly, donkey-like. There's the loophole of "different cultures have different standards of beauty and all of that, but it was a pretty weak defense when all other forms of beauty appear to conform to our world's standards. 

So yes... the "redesigns" in DA2 did not sit well with me. But the Qunari, with the attempt to try to explain, did better than the elves.


If you were fishing for me to say "well, that was different than what we are talking about here" then I'm sorry I let anyone down...?

[Fast Jimmy]

FreshIstay wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...
Actually, you're wrong. It's YOUR problem. Because, by and large, I don't have a problem with Bioware's approach to attempt to explain things in their game. And, as I've now said multiple times, David Gaider, Lead Writer of the DA series and the heavy lifter when it comes to the world-building section of the setting and lore, says they WON'T introduce any new ethnicities into the setting without an explanation. 

So Bioware is doing it the way I'd prefer. It's YOUR problem if you want them to do it differently. 

Angry much? * Post That Gaider Quote. Please.
Look. Bioware is already Including POC and they won't stop. So they are actually doing what I want, and If Vivienne is any indication they are getting pretty good at it. Does she need to explain herself to you as well? Or Are are you just assuming she's from Rivain because she's Black? 

The story says she's Rivanni. So... nice try, I guess?

Here's the Gaider link: http://social.biowar...2050/3#16017008

[AlexanderCousland]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...
But if, suddenly, there is a population of Hispanic looking NPCs milling around the streets of Orlais.

• Here is the kind of overreaction Im talking about.  Nobody is trying to drop Mexico in Thedas and no one region Inside of Thedas belongs to any skin color. People of any color can be from anywhere in Thedas and that need not be explained so people with privilege can feel better.

I feel like looping back to the Jade Empire discussion, since you seem to be implying white people can't play games with non-whites in them without them needing to check their privilege. But that topic has already come up to no avail to anyone. 

Your quarrels aren't with me. They are with Bioware for making a predominantly white setting for their game and for (in my opinion, smartly) adhering to a policy of trying to manage any changes to that setting through logical, in game explanations or events. If you don't like the fact that Bioware did/is doing those things, sorry Jack. I'm not the person you should be mad with.  

I didn't imply that, Why would I, Im White myself and Married to a Black Woman who is pregnant with my Black Son if you want an Idea of where I'm coming from. And People like me who keep asking Bioware to make Character's like Vivenne, Duncan, and Isabela In this generation will make the Game Industry better for people like of my son's generation who will grow up playing games that have representation for people who look like him and never know that it was an Issue.

[aTrueFool]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

The argument that because the people who were native to Europe during the Middle Ages were white, Dragon Age shouldn't have characters from other ethnic backgrounds, doesn't really hold water.

For starters Thedas is not Medieval Europe, even if it is loosely based on the history and cultures of Medieval Europe. Second, Medieval Europe was not entirely populated by white people. There were Moors in Spain, Turks in the Balkans, and traders from all over the Middle East and North Africa in Italian ports. The Mongols invaded parts of Eastern Europe. You also had a diplomatic mission from Ethiopia to Rome during the medieval period. So the history of medieval Europe does not even support the exclusion of characters who are not white.

Okay... but you know what DOES support the idea of Thedas being pre-dominantly white? Not the history of Europe - the history of Thedas. Every major human ethnicity barring the Rivanni is white. And, if you've ever looked at a map of Thedas, you'd see how far away the island of Rivain is. One of the closer locations to Rivain is Kirkwall. Kirkwall, where we saw less than a dozen Rivani. And nowhere in the lore does it allow for any other ethnicity such as Asian in its list of known countries or people. "Known" being the operative word here. 

Does that mean a place like Orlais, being a more economic and cultural hub couldn't have a few more Rivanni than we saw in previous games? Sure, that wouldn't be a stretch or require an explanation. But if suddenly Bioware were to make the ratios 50:50 (or even 30:70), let alone introduce any new real life ethnicities "just because" without an attempt at giving an explanation is the same type of ludicrous mindset as if Bioware included spaceships or machine guns "just because." You could say they would add those elements to make the sci-fi fans feel more included. That doesn't make it a violation of basic narrative consistency. 

Rivain is not an island, it's a peninsula.

[Medhia Nox]

Serious business going on in THIS thread right here.

Bioware - spend a little more time on your character designer. There, we good?

Who derailed the very important topic of what should be our true hatred? Serious racial hatred against those tree hugging knife ears.

[sandalisthemaker]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Serious business going on in THIS thread right here.

Bioware - spend a little more time on your character designer. There, we good?

Who derailed the very important topic of what should be our true hatred? Serious racial hatred against those tree hugging knife ears.

No.
QUNARI FILTH (OF ANY RACE) SHOULD BE PURGED.

[Fast Jimmy]

I didn't imply that, Why would I, Im White myself and Married to a Black Woman who is pregnant with my Black Son if you want an Idea of where I'm coming from. And People like me who keep asking Bioware to make Character's like Vivenne, Duncan, and Isabela In this generation will make the Game Industry better for people like of my son's generation who will grow up playing games that have representation for people who look like him and never know that it was an Issue.

I can appreciate this viewpoint, honestly. And I don't have a problem with including PoC in any game. But if the setting exists that makes PoC rare, then they can exist, but they will be rare. If a developer creates such a setting and wants to maintain the logic of that setting, that is their prerogative. It is your prerogative to possibly not support those developers because of creating those settings?

But asking said developer to bastardize their setting to accommodate real life without any attempt at an explanation isn't fair to anyone.

[Xilizhra]

But asking said developer to bastardize their setting to accommodate real life without any attempt at an explanation isn't fair to anyone.

Of course it is. Fans give feedback.

[Fast Jimmy]

Rivain is not an island, it's a peninsula.

Ah, you are correct. My apologies.

[RedArmyShogun]

How many times must we go over this issue? How many of you were passed through school so your teachers wouldn't have to see you?

[Fast Jimmy]

Xilizhra wrote...

But asking said developer to bastardize their setting to accommodate real life without any attempt at an explanation isn't fair to anyone.

Of course it is. Fans give feedback.

Okay...? I feel like this is the start of a thought. What's the rest of it?

[sandalisthemaker]

Give it a rest Jimbo.
Rainbow people for DA:I

[Fast Jimmy]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Give it a rest Jimbo.
Rainbow people for DA:I

You've won me over. 

[Br3admax]

FreshIstay wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...
But if, suddenly, there is a population of Hispanic looking NPCs milling around the streets of Orlais.

• Here is the kind of overreaction Im talking about.  Nobody is trying to drop Mexico in Thedas and no one region Inside of Thedas belongs to any skin color. People of any color can be from anywhere in Thedas and that need not be explained so people with privilege can feel better.

I feel like looping back to the Jade Empire discussion, since you seem to be implying white people can't play games with non-whites in them without them needing to check their privilege. But that topic has already come up to no avail to anyone. 

Your quarrels aren't with me. They are with Bioware for making a predominantly white setting for their game and for (in my opinion, smartly) adhering to a policy of trying to manage any changes to that setting through logical, in game explanations or events. If you don't like the fact that Bioware did/is doing those things, sorry Jack. I'm not the person you should be mad with.  

I didn't imply that, Why would I, Im White myself and Married to a Black Woman who is pregnant with my Black Son if you want an Idea of where I'm coming from. And People like me who keep asking Bioware to make Character's like Vivenne, Duncan, and Isabela In this generation will make the Game Industry better for people like of my son's generation who will grow up playing games that have representation for people who look like him and never know that it was an Issue.

It's not really an issue now. If the setting fits than sure, but just adding black people to add black people kind of has the opposite effect. 

[sandalisthemaker]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Give it a rest Jimbo.
Rainbow people for DA:I

You've won me over. 

*Flips pink poofy hair*
None can resist. (Just ask BiowareMod03 )

Modifié par sandalisthemaker, 30 octobre 2013 - 02:41 .

[The Hierophant]

I agree with Fast Jimmy's pov in that i prefer the writer's to try to maintain some semblance of consistency in regards to lore. Aside from the Avvar, and Fex we've seen nearly all of Thedas's human ethnic groups. The team will either introduce new cultures/ethnicities in the story via travel or they could redesign preexisting ethnicities. The latter seems like it will cause trouble as people will whine about getting hand me downs, recycled goods or sloppy seconds in terms of representation.

The CC is fair game so i see no problem with wanting to create whatever look you want for your pc.

[syllogi]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

The Qunari were retconned, but an attempt was made to explain it - that there are hornless Qunari, that since they look more "normal," the hornless Qunari are more often sent out to foreign lands and that the description given in DA:O's lore was from people who had only meant the "bronze giant" form of Qunari.

It didn't make me the happiest camper in the world, but it was an attempt. 

I did not, however, abide the Elven changes, where we were given no explanation and which violated aspects of the lore, such as Elves being chosen for servants/ages because of their beauty, but then Elves in DA2 looking more "beastial" and, frankly, donkey-like. There's the loophole of "different cultures have different standards of beauty and all of that, but it was a pretty weak defense when all other forms of beauty appear to conform to our world's standards. 

So yes... the "redesigns" in DA2 did not sit well with me. But the Qunari, with the attempt to try to explain, did better than the elves.


If you were fishing for me to say "well, that was different than what we are talking about here" then I'm sorry I let anyone down...?

LOL, well, I don't think it's much different than what we're talking about here, so no, I wasn't fishing for that, I was just wondering why there seems to be more resistance in threads about people wanting to see more human racial diversity than there was when they completely (in my opinion) changed qunari (and yeah, elves are noticeably different too) in DA2.  

When I look at a map of Thedas, I don't assume that there is a blank void outside of the borders, or everything else is water or barren rock.  I assume that there are lands we haven't been introduced to yet.  It would have been nice to have that info from the first game, the way we already can guess that humans from Akavir, for instance, in the Elder Scrolls games, would look Asian, and Redguards have been given features that correlate to real world African features since the games have had graphics that could handle it.  Just because we haven't had that lore yet doesn't mean that it can't be added later.

And as someone who has gotten "what ARE you?" as a question since I was a child, I personally wouldn't enjoy seeing every character who isn't lily white made to explain their racial background as soon as they appear in the game.  From my own experience, it's offputting and feels like I'm being told that because I don't fit their preconceived notions about race, I need to explain my existence.  If it's relevant to their backstory, sure, great.  I love learning new lore.  But I don't need an info dump to justify characters with heretofore unseen physical features.

Unless they have wings or something.  That would deserve an explanation.

Modifié par syllogi, 30 octobre 2013 - 02:55 .

[AlexanderCousland]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I didn't imply that, Why would I, Im White myself and Married to a Black Woman who is pregnant with my Black Son if you want an Idea of where I'm coming from. And People like me who keep asking Bioware to make Character's like Vivenne, Duncan, and Isabela In this generation will make the Game Industry better for people like of my son's generation who will grow up playing games that have representation for people who look like him and never know that it was an Issue.

I can appreciate this viewpoint, honestly. And I don't have a problem with including PoC in any game. But if the setting exists that makes PoC rare, then they can exist, but they will be rare. If a developer creates such a setting and wants to maintain the logic of that setting, that is their prerogative. It is your prerogative to possibly not support those developers because of creating those settings?

But asking said developer to bastardize their setting to accommodate real life without any attempt at an explanation isn't fair to anyone.

You use very strong adjective's that give your written tone a level of contempt Im not quite comfortable with.
I also think your overestimating the amount of POC myself and others are suggesting be included.
No one wants to "Drastically Change the setting"
I love Dragon Age and will play DA:I regardless of what they do, but I do not think they would be "Bastardizing" anything by including more POC. Excuse Me if I dont believe a couple  NPC need be explained.

Modifié par FreshIstay, 30 octobre 2013 - 02:59 .

[AlexanderCousland]

Br3ad wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...
But if, suddenly, there is a population of Hispanic looking NPCs milling around the streets of Orlais.

• Here is the kind of overreaction Im talking about.  Nobody is trying to drop Mexico in Thedas and no one region Inside of Thedas belongs to any skin color. People of any color can be from anywhere in Thedas and that need not be explained so people with privilege can feel better.

I feel like looping back to the Jade Empire discussion, since you seem to be implying white people can't play games with non-whites in them without them needing to check their privilege. But that topic has already come up to no avail to anyone. 

Your quarrels aren't with me. They are with Bioware for making a predominantly white setting for their game and for (in my opinion, smartly) adhering to a policy of trying to manage any changes to that setting through logical, in game explanations or events. If you don't like the fact that Bioware did/is doing those things, sorry Jack. I'm not the person you should be mad with.  

I didn't imply that, Why would I, Im White myself and Married to a Black Woman who is pregnant with my Black Son if you want an Idea of where I'm coming from. And People like me who keep asking Bioware to make Character's like Vivenne, Duncan, and Isabela In this generation will make the Game Industry better for people like of my son's generation who will grow up playing games that have representation for people who look like him and never know that it was an Issue.

It's not really an issue now. If the setting fits than sure, but just adding black people to add black people kind of has the opposite effect. 

It's not just about black people<_< 
And Seriously dude. No one is suggesting We turn this into Dragon Age: America 2013. 
So How about you not leave any more condescending comments k? 

[AresKeith]

@FreshIstay you do know that he was just using an example right?

[David Gaider]

Morocco Mole wrote...

These are seriously always the worst threads on BSN.

I agree.

The OP asked about the ability to create better-looking dark-skinned PC's. That's the intention, and with the new engine the old problem with dark skin tones has (thankfully) gone away. There's nothing more we can elaborate on that front until we start discussing the chargen system.

Since this topic inevitably dovetails into larger hot-button issues, and already has, I'm shutting it down.