249 réponses à ce sujet

[Plaintiff]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

BouncyFrag wrote...

Race in video games is serious business folks.

Do you consider videogames to be worthy of classification as an artform? Or do you consider them juvenile toys with no worth to adults or intellectuals?

Considering that people can turn defactaion into a "classifcation as an artform," I don't see why that means video games need to aspire to do anything other than be entertainment if they so desire.

I'm trying to gauge his opinion of videogames in general.

I find a lot of people on this forum, heck, in general, have a conflicting opinion of videogames. They will insist that games have the same artistic and literary merit as our great films, novels and poems, but they won't allow people to criticise videogames in the same way that they criticise these other artforms.

These people will whine and moan about individuals like Roger Ebert, or Jack Thompson, who discredited videogames in the past. But any criticism or discussion of how a videogame portrays race, gender, sexuality or violence or anything at all with cries of "It's just a game! Don't take it so seriously!"

I don't perceive any functional difference between 'entertainment' and 'art'. Art is a kind of entertainment, and entertainment for most people consists primarily of consuming different kinds of art. The two are one and the same.

I'm of the opinion that videogames are art, regardless of whether they 'aspire' to be or not (there's no rule that says art has to be intentional, after all). And as art, I subject videogames to the same level of scrutiny as I would any novel, film, poem, painting or whatever.

So yes, I take race in videogames seriously. I take everything in videogames seriously. All art is intended for consumption by a wider public, and as such, every art piece, every videogame, delivers a very serious message (intentional or not), not only about its creator, but about the wider public that consumes it.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 29 octobre 2013 - 11:54 .

[fchopin]

Plaintiff wrote...

I'm trying to gauge his opinion of videogames in general.

I find a lot of people on this forum, heck, in general, have a conflicting opinion of videogames. They will insist that games have the same artistic and literary merit as our great films, novels and poems, but they won't allow people to criticise videogames in the same way that they criticise these other artforms.

These people will whine and moan about individuals like Roger Ebert, or Jack Thompson, who discredited videogames in the past. But any criticism or discussion of how a videogame portrays race, gender, sexuality or violence or anything at all with cries of "It's just a game! Don't take it so seriously!"

I don't perceive any functional difference between 'entertainment' and 'art'. Art is a kind of entertainment, and entertainment for most people consists primarily of consuming different kinds of art. The two are one and the same.

I'm of the opinion that videogames are art, regardless of whether they 'aspire' to be or not (there's no rule that says art has to be intentional, after all). And as art, I subject videogames to the same level of scrutiny as I would any novel, film, poem, painting or whatever.

So yes, I take race in videogames seriously. I take everything in videogames seriously. All art is intended for consumption by a wider public, and as such, every art piece, every videogame, delivers a very serious message (intentional or not), not only about its creator, but about the wider public that consumes it.

I agree with you that games can be judged as an artform but it depends on the game.
There are also some differences in films and games for example it is much more difficult to create different races in a game as it requires a great deal of time and money. Many games use the same design and copy paste in many instances to make it easy to show more people in the game and that is part of gaming for now.
 
There is also the role playing and options in the game that is far superior to what a film can do and i consider games to be the new science in future as it will be used for much more than just gaming.

[Br3admax]

Xilizhra wrote...

Show a screenshot of Isabela to anyone person completely unfamiliar with Dragon Age and ask them to identify that character's ethnicity, and I guarantee you not a single person will say 'black' or 'African.' Thus a dev claiming that Dragon Age featured black characters in the past is a bit disingenuous. Without the equivalent of Twitter canon, no one would even know she was black.

I'd say "Middle Eastern/North African," myself. What does that count as?

That's a mixed race culture, so nothing. Biologically, there are only three races. Mixed races get their own classification as well. 

[AresKeith]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Is it bad if I think Isabella looks Latina? :S

Not, because honestly she does

[CuriousArtemis]

Thought nugget for the day: "privlege" is claiming your engine can't handle creating black and brown people. But somehow it's miraculously accurate at creating white people.

I had no idea technology defaulted to white.

I'm already aware it defaults to male. *snorts*

[Allan Schumacher]

Lord Aesir wrote...

While I agree with your principle, I don't think "go play another game" is at all what Kalas was saying.  Kalas was more wondering why people would find it so difficult to enjoy a game just because they didn't share the ethnicity of the protagonist.  Certainly I would agree that I felt no problem playing through Jade Empire despite a lack of white male protagonist.

Perhaps because the opportunity to do so comes along more rarely.  Or perhaps because for them they prefer to place themselves in the player character.

It's a simple enough request yet gets met with a lot of resistance for some reason.


It's great if it's not an issue for you or other people.  It's not an issue for me either.  But my experiences differ from other people's.

[AlexanderCousland]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Is it bad if I think Isabella looks Latina? :S

Not at all.

What would be bad is that *if she actually was Latina, I posted reasons she can't possibly be Latino, and denied that anyone in Latino culture could look like her, asked you to take a survey on how many people thought she was Latino, and said all her Latino features are European features for whatever reason.

[Allan Schumacher]

motomotogirl wrote...

Thought nugget for the day: "privlege" is claiming your engine can't handle creating black and brown people. But somehow it's miraculously accurate at creating white people.

I had no idea technology defaulted to white.

I'm already aware it defaults to male. *snorts*

You won't find me disagreeing.

[Xilizhra]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

I think the resistance mainly comes from people not wanting video games made by a company they enjoy becoming platforms for political statements. A lot of people feel that they are constantly bombarded by cries for equality, along with the inherent propaganda that most of these sides create. It's an understandable grievence, since games are usually used as a form of escapism.

Unless the plot is used specifically as a platform to speak about issues of equality in-game, this is an utter nonissue being disingenuously complained about.

[Allan Schumacher]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

I think the resistance mainly comes from people not wanting video games made by a company they enjoy becoming platforms for political statements.

I think that this is the fault of the person coming to that conclusion though.  For all of the "I don't care" types of comments, if it was true they wouldn't bother posting.

Besides, is it a political statement for us to go "You know, we could probably accommodate that?"  Or is it simply trying to give a segment of the fanbase something they'd appreciate?

A lot of people feel that they are constantly bombarded by cries for equality, along with the inherent propaganda that most of these sides create. It's an understandable grievence, since games are usually used as a form of escapism.

Agreed, games can be used as a form of escapism.  If something undermines someone's ability to enjoy that escapism, then they're free to make suggestions as to what they think might improve it.

For example:

Unless the plot is used specifically as a platform to speak about issues of equality in-game, this is an utter nonissue being disingenuously complained about.

I have a hard time not agreeing with this.

Doesn't it become a political statement once people start stating that it doesn't make sense in a fantasy world?  Is it because their inclusion will undermine their own escapism?

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 30 octobre 2013 - 01:00 .

[AlexanderCousland]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

I think the resistance mainly comes from people not wanting video games made by a company they enjoy becoming platforms for political statements. A lot of people feel that they are constantly bombarded by cries for equality, along with the inherent propaganda that most of these sides create. It's an understandable grievence, since games are usually used as a form of escapism.

Then I guess Whites and Minorities will have to collectively work towards the day when Inclusion isnt seen as a political statement and instead is seen as normal everyday life.

[Boiny Bunny]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

I think the resistance mainly comes from people not wanting video games made by a company they enjoy becoming platforms for political statements. A lot of people feel that they are constantly bombarded by cries for equality, along with the inherent propaganda that most of these sides create. It's an understandable grievence, since games are usually used as a form of escapism.

I think it only becomes an issue if responding to such requests otherwise reduces the quality of the game.  For example, as far as we know so far, there is no Asian inspired/looking culture in Thedas.  If Bioware wanted to give players the opportunity to create an Asian looking character in DA:I, they would probably need to create new lore explaining this new racial sub-group's sudden existance.  It's not all that different to allowing the player to play as different races - all of a sudden, different NPC reactions for each possible player race are required, possibly different plot avenues/quest availability, etc. (though these latter items are certainly not required).

If you wanted to make an argument for all ethnicities being included in the game world, the argument would be that Bioware should have put them all in (in reasonable quantities) to begin with.  Whether they should have done that or not is debatable - I guess it comes back to the idea of going with their original vision, or modifying it to iron out the lack of political correctness in that vision, before inception of the product.  I guess it also raises the question of whether other ethnicities are largely ignored in DA:O on purpose, or by accident.

To be slightly more philosophical about it, if non-whites are hardly included in a game simply because it wasn't thought about, is that a political statement in of itself?  Or is it unknowing exercise of privilege?  Are these two things one and the same?  Is it any less a political statement if the racial sub-group being excluded is not the underdog (e.g. Jade Empire)?

Modifié par Boiny Bunny, 30 octobre 2013 - 01:08 .

[Allan Schumacher]

I think it only becomes an issue if responding to such requests otherwise reduces the quality of the game. For example, as far as we know so far, there is no Asian inspired/looking culture in Thedas.

If you wanted to make an argument for all ethnicities being included in the game world, the argument would be that Bioware should have put them all in (in reasonable quantities) to begin with. Whether they should have done that or not is debatable - I guess it comes back to the idea of going with their original vision

While I can understand these perspectives, it can also simply be a reflection of it not really being included as part of the perspective of the original vision (disclaimer: I wasn't around during the original vision... although such things are facts of life with gaming and in that sense the original vision will always be susceptible to new influences).

[Boiny Bunny]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I think it only becomes an issue if responding to such requests otherwise reduces the quality of the game. For example, as far as we know so far, there is no Asian inspired/looking culture in Thedas.

If you wanted to make an argument for all ethnicities being included in the game world, the argument would be that Bioware should have put them all in (in reasonable quantities) to begin with. Whether they should have done that or not is debatable - I guess it comes back to the idea of going with their original vision

While I can understand these perspectives, it can also simply be a reflection of it not really being included as part of the perspective of the original vision (disclaimer: I wasn't around during the original vision... although such things are facts of life with gaming and in that sense the original vision will always be susceptible to new influences).

That's essentially what I'm getting at.  From what I've gathered from the various dev posts here over the years, this simply wasn't thought about when the ideas for DA:O were first being imagined and fleshed out.  I've edited my post slightly to give more thought to this.

Also, as you make a good point of, the people who make up the team responsible for DA have changed since that point, as has the market and society itself (always evolving).  Whatever the original vision was for the world of Thedas, I think it would be safe to say that it has changed over the years (and to be clear, I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that at all!)

Perspectives will always change as years roll by.  I don't doubt that at some point in the future, our descendants will probably look back at prevalent views in society today on issues such as these and think that we were all barbaric.

Modifié par Boiny Bunny, 30 octobre 2013 - 01:17 .

[AlexanderCousland]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...

I think the resistance mainly comes from people not wanting video games made by a company they enjoy becoming platforms for political statements. A lot of people feel that they are constantly bombarded by cries for equality, along with the inherent propaganda that most of these sides create. It's an understandable grievence, since games are usually used as a form of escapism.

I think it only becomes an issue if responding to such requests otherwise reduces the quality of the game.  For example, as far as we know so far, there is no Asian inspired/looking culture in Thedas.  If Bioware wanted to give players the opportunity to create an Asian looking character in DA:I, they would probably need to create new lore explaining this new racial sub-group's sudden existance.  It's not all that different to allowing the player to play as different races - all of a sudden, different NPC reactions for each possible player race are required, possibly different plot avenues/quest availability, etc. (though these latter items are certainly not required).

If you wanted to make an argument for all ethnicities being included in the game world, the argument would be that Bioware should have put them all in (in reasonable quantities) to begin with.  Whether they should have done that or not is debatable - I guess it comes back to the idea of going with their original vision, or modifying it to iron out the lack of political correctness in that vision, before inception of the product.  I guess it also raises the question of whether other ethnicities are largely ignored in DA:O on purpose, or by accident.

To be slightly more philosophical about it, if non-whites are hardly included in a game simply because it wasn't thought about, is that a political statement in of itself?  Or is it unknowing exercise of privilege?  Are these two things one and the same?  Is it any less a political statement if the racial sub-group being excluded is not the underdog (e.g. Jade Empire)?

It doesn't even need to be that complicated, just put them in there. No need for a POC quota. There doesn't need to be a codex explaining why a person with color is in the game. I dont think anyone would take a tour of a city they haven't been to and ask random persons "Hey, explain the reason why your skin has color in this area" 

[Boiny Bunny]

FreshIstay wrote...

It doesn't even need to be that complicated, just put them in there. No need for a POC quota. There doesn't need to be a codex explaining why a person with color is in the game. I dont think anyone would take a tour of a city they haven't been to and ask random persons "Hey, explain the reason why your skin has color in this area" 

Agreed - and Bioware have clearly expressed that there are plenty of 'black' people in the world of Thedas - the previous engines were just bad at rendering them, and there didn't happen to be many people from those nations in Ferelden at the time of the Blight, or Kirkwall in the years following.  As far as I'm aware though, there hasn't been any mention/reference/appearance of Asian looking characters yet, which I imagine a chunk of players would like to have.  Bioware could just let these players go wild on the character creator, and have them be the only Asian looking character in the world, with no explanation or reaction from other NPCs - which admittedly, would be fine for a lot of people - but many others would argue that it causes lore problems, and call for the broader inclusion of Asian looking characters in the world, which would require new lore.

I'm not necessarily advocating either way of going about it.  Bioware could literally just retcon the entire thing and make 20% of the NPCs Asian if they wanted.  Is that the right solution?

[AlexanderCousland]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

The Mad Hanar wrote...

I think the resistance mainly comes from people not wanting video games made by a company they enjoy becoming platforms for political statements. A lot of people feel that they are constantly bombarded by cries for equality, along with the inherent propaganda that most of these sides create. It's an understandable grievence, since games are usually used as a form of escapism.

Then I guess Whites and Minorities will have to collectively work towards the day when Inclusion isnt seen as a political statement and instead is seen as normal everyday life.

I think people will always feel this way, and it is pointless to try to change their minds. The real question is if there is enough of the people that will be frustrated that it will affect sales. I don't think there is, and I don't think there is a problem with including minorities in games.

What I do find a problem with is tokenism and this idea that one race monopolizes certain facial features. I have had no problem with creating minority characters in every Bioware game I have played. It takes extra effort.

I dont think people will always continue to be bigoted. Just as my kids won't grow up thinking there is some thing wrong with being Gay, and my son is going to be a black man so I cant teach him how to be black but I can teach him love and that not every white man he sees has something against him simply for his skin color. People from my generation can send him a message through their work that say' s "hey, there is a place for you here".   

[Kalas747]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

  Is it any less a political statement if the racial sub-group being excluded is not the underdog (e.g. Jade Empire)?

I think it's more about the games source material.  In Jade Empires case, it's a game that is based on Asian culture and history.  I think it's insulting as hell to go into that game saying "I wanna play a game inspired by the people of Asia, but I don't want my character to look like them."

In Star Wars KotOR, there is no source material based on a particular continent or country therefore they had a good selection of diverse skins(at the time).

[AlexanderCousland]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

It doesn't even need to be that complicated, just put them in there. No need for a POC quota. There doesn't need to be a codex explaining why a person with color is in the game. I dont think anyone would take a tour of a city they haven't been to and ask random persons "Hey, explain the reason why your skin has color in this area" 

Agreed - and Bioware have clearly expressed that there are plenty of 'black' people in the world of Thedas - the previous engines were just bad at rendering them, and there didn't happen to be many people from those nations in Ferelden at the time of the Blight, or Kirkwall in the years following.  As far as I'm aware though, there hasn't been any mention/reference/appearance of Asian looking characters yet, which I imagine a chunk of players would like to have.  Bioware could just let these players go wild on the character creator, and have them be the only Asian looking character in the world, with no explanation or reaction from other NPCs - which admittedly, would be fine for a lot of people - but many others would argue that it causes lore problems, and call for the broader inclusion of Asian looking characters in the world, which would require new lore.

I'm not necessarily advocating either way of going about it.  Bioware could literally just retcon the entire thing and make 20% of the NPCs Asian if they wanted.  Is that the right solution?

Or If Dragon Age gets successful enough and  players can leave the continent of Thedas. Who's to say there arent any Ethnicities in Tevinter, Rivain, and Antiva, Nevarra...Cassandra isn't white is she?  The color of a person doesn't really matter but I think that it's beneficial for people to see positive examples of people who look OR act like them for purely physcological reasons. 

[Boiny Bunny]

Kalas747 wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

  Is it any less a political statement if the racial sub-group being excluded is not the underdog (e.g. Jade Empire)?

I think it's more about the games source material.  In Jade Empires case, it's a game that is based on Asian culture and history.  I think it's insulting as hell to go into that game saying "I wanna play a game inspired by the people of Asia, but I don't want my character to look like them."

In Star Wars KotOR, there is no source material based on a particular continent or country therefore they had a good selection of diverse skins(at the time).

But is it just as insulting to go into a game that is based on European culture and history (in as much as Jade Empire is based on Asian culture and history at least) and want to play as an Asian character?

I think sometimes these questions get blurry because in one situation are you talking about excluding a historically (in the gaming world) social minority, and in the other excluding the traditionally dominant and privileged social group.

[Ianamus]

Kalas747 wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

  Is it any less a political statement if the racial sub-group being excluded is not the underdog (e.g. Jade Empire)?

I think it's more about the games source material.  In Jade Empires case, it's a game that is based on Asian culture and history.  I think it's insulting as hell to go into that game saying "I wanna play a game inspired by the people of Asia, but I don't want my character to look like them."

In Star Wars KotOR, there is no source material based on a particular continent or country therefore they had a good selection of diverse skins(at the time).

Arguably it's not any better to say "I want to play a game inspired by Europe, but I don't want my character to look like them". The only difference is that one of those corresponds to the primary ethnicity in the country the game was made in and the other doesn't. 

I'm surprised more people aren't using the term caucasian. I'd argue that even Isabela is caucasian, although more Moroccan/ Turkish. 

Vivienne seems to be the first Dragon Age charcter who is not caucasian, and I'm certainly not complaining. 

Modifié par EJ107, 30 octobre 2013 - 01:44 .

[Kalas747]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

Kalas747 wrote...

I think it's more about the games source material.  In Jade Empires case, it's a game that is based on Asian culture and history.  I think it's insulting as hell to go into that game saying "I wanna play a game inspired by the people of Asia, but I don't want my character to look like them."

In Star Wars KotOR, there is no source material based on a particular continent or country therefore they had a good selection of diverse skins(at the time).

But is it just as insulting to go into a game that is based on European culture and history (in as much as Jade Empire is based on Asian culture and history at least) and want to play as an Asian character?

I think sometimes these questions get blurry because in one situation are you talking about excluding a historically (in the gaming world) social minority, and in the other excluding the traditionally dominant and privileged social group.

Good point there.  It's rare to find somebody who wants to discuss a subject like this without resorting to childish trolling.