249 réponses à ce sujet

[Allan Schumacher]

I think it's more about the games source material. In Jade Empires case, it's a game that is based on Asian culture and history. I think it's insulting as hell to go into that game saying "I wanna play a game inspired by the people of Asia, but I don't want my character to look like them."

I've seen Jade Empire come up a couple of times now. Did anyone say that? Is the example you provide actually accurate if we tie it in to Dragon Age's universe and the issues that people have, or is it a bit of a red herring?

[AlexanderCousland]

Kalas747 wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

  Is it any less a political statement if the racial sub-group being excluded is not the underdog (e.g. Jade Empire)?

I think it's more about the games source material.  In Jade Empires case, it's a game that is based on Asian culture and history.  I think it's insulting as hell to go into that game saying "I wanna play a game inspired by the people of Asia, but I don't want my character to look like them."

Is it insulting? That's a strong opinion. I guess then you'd be operating under the assumption that other cultures dont exist in Asia. Maybe a trip to Hong Kong or perhaps Tokyo may do you some good. Or perhaps you beleive Ancient racial groups of this world didn't explore other countries? Or perhaps you beleive that people of a certain race (any) should have a claim on all the artwork that is based on the country that racial group is most dominant in? 

[Leomerya12]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

While I agree with your principle, I don't think "go play another game" is at all what Kalas was saying.  Kalas was more wondering why people would find it so difficult to enjoy a game just because they didn't share the ethnicity of the protagonist.  Certainly I would agree that I felt no problem playing through Jade Empire despite a lack of white male protagonist.

Perhaps because the opportunity to do so comes along more rarely.  Or perhaps because for them they prefer to place themselves in the player character.

It's a simple enough request yet gets met with a lot of resistance for some reason.


It's great if it's not an issue for you or other people.  It's not an issue for me either.  But my experiences differ from other people's.

White people don't mind playing games where they can be non-White or non-Human because they're already inundated with material that let's them be so (White males). It's not the same thing for people of other races. At all.

I commend Bioware for trying. And they are improving.

Modifié par Leomerya12, 30 octobre 2013 - 01:57 .

[Kalas747]

EJ107 wrote...

Arguably it's not any better to say "I want to play a game inspired by Europe, but I don't want my character to look like them". The only difference is that one of those corresponds to the primary ethnicity in the country the game was made in and the other doesn't. 

I'm surprised more people aren't using the term caucasian. I'd argue that even Isabela is caucasian, although more Moroccan/ Turkish. 

Vivienne seems to be the first Dragon Age charcter who is not caucasian, and I'm certainly not complaining. 

I agree, caucasian is a more accurate term. 

[Boiny Bunny]

FreshIstay wrote...

Kalas747 wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

  Is it any less a political statement if the racial sub-group being excluded is not the underdog (e.g. Jade Empire)?

I think it's more about the games source material.  In Jade Empires case, it's a game that is based on Asian culture and history.  I think it's insulting as hell to go into that game saying "I wanna play a game inspired by the people of Asia, but I don't want my character to look like them."

Is it insulting? That's a strong opinion. I guess then you'd be operating under the assumption that other cultures dont exist in Asia. Maybe a trip to Hong Kong or perhaps Tokyo may do you some good. Or perhaps you beleive Ancient racial groups of this world didn't explore other countries? Or perhaps you beleive that people of a certain race (any) should have a claim on all the artwork that is based on the country that racial group is most dominant in? 

You're actually raising a very interesting point here.  I suspect this is the reason that Jade Empire and DA:O turned out the way that they did.  I doubt Bioware (or anybody really) supposes that not a single Caucasian ever entered Asia back in the times that Jade Empire might be equivalent to.  Likewise, it would be ridiculous beyond belief to think that Europe was literally as imbalanced in favour of Caucasians as Thedas in DA:O is in say the 13th century.

However, many of the famous stories/poems/texts/artwork from either of these places at those times centre on the dominant (by whatever margin it was) people/culture of that region of that time, and that has an influence on the way people think about them.  Ask an average person walking down the street to tell you something about ancient Asia, and chances are they won't start talking about Marco Polo.  That, potentially more than anything else, has influenced how these game worlds have been created.

[Kalas747]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

I've seen Jade Empire come up a couple of times now. Did anyone say that? Is the example you provide actually accurate if we tie it in to Dragon Age's universe and the issues that people have, or is it a bit of a red herring?

Yes, I did.  Jade Empire was insipired by ancient China and Thedas was inspired by medieval Europe.  I don't believe it's a red herring.  The games are similar enough, both are RPGs made by the same developer and are loosely based on real world history.

If Bioware wants to create a more sophisticated character genenrator, that's great.  I certainly don't want to play the callous, privileged villain.

[AlexanderCousland]

Boiny Bunny wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

Kalas747 wrote...

Boiny Bunny wrote...

  Is it any less a political statement if the racial sub-group being excluded is not the underdog (e.g. Jade Empire)?

I think it's more about the games source material.  In Jade Empires case, it's a game that is based on Asian culture and history.  I think it's insulting as hell to go into that game saying "I wanna play a game inspired by the people of Asia, but I don't want my character to look like them."

Is it insulting? That's a strong opinion. I guess then you'd be operating under the assumption that other cultures dont exist in Asia. Maybe a trip to Hong Kong or perhaps Tokyo may do you some good. Or perhaps you beleive Ancient racial groups of this world didn't explore other countries? Or perhaps you beleive that people of a certain race (any) should have a claim on all the artwork that is based on the country that racial group is most dominant in? 

You're actually raising a very interesting point here.  I suspect this is the reason that Jade Empire and DA:O turned out the way that they did.  I doubt Bioware (or anybody really) supposes that not a single Caucasian ever entered Asia back in the times that Jade Empire might be equivalent to.  Likewise, it would be ridiculous beyond belief to think that Europe was literally as imbalanced in favour of Caucasians as Thedas in DA:O is in say the 13th century.

However, many of the famous stories/poems/texts/artwork from either of these places at those times centre on the dominant (by whatever margin it was) people/culture of that region of that time, and that has an influence on the way people think about them.  Ask an average person walking down the street to tell you something about ancient Asia, and chances are they won't start talking about Marco Polo.  That, potentially more than anything else, has influenced how these game worlds have been created.

I beleive in "Whoever wins the War wins History"  

I'll give you a prime example .

In American School's we learn all about Christopher Columbus, Plymouth rock, The Deceleration of Independence, George Washington. "The Founding Fathers"

They teach us virtually nothing about the Native Americans whom this great country was taken from via genocide.
They teach us virtually nothing about  Mexican' s and how California was taken from them. 

So I've learned from this Great Nation of Mine...you kill everyone then you get to write your own history.

[BlueMagitek]

The best character in Jade Empire was the British dude though. ~_^

[Fast Jimmy]

Plaintiff wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

BouncyFrag wrote...

Race in video games is serious business folks.

Do you consider videogames to be worthy of classification as an artform? Or do you consider them juvenile toys with no worth to adults or intellectuals?

Considering that people can turn defactaion into a "classifcation as an artform," I don't see why that means video games need to aspire to do anything other than be entertainment if they so desire.

I'm trying to gauge his opinion of videogames in general. 

I find a lot of people on this forum, heck, in general, have a conflicting opinion of videogames. They will insist that games have the same artistic and literary merit as our great films, novels and poems, but they won't allow people tocriticise videogames in the same way that they criticise these other artforms.

These people will whine and moan about individuals like Roger Ebert, or Jack Thompson, who discredited videogames in the past. But any criticism or discussion of how a videogame portrays race, gender, sexuality or violence or anything at all with cries of "It's just a game! Don't take it so seriously!"

I don't perceive any functional difference between 'entertainment' and 'art'. Art is a kind of entertainment, and entertainment for most people consists primarily of consuming different kinds of art. The two are one and the same.

I'm of the opinion that videogames are art, regardless of whether they 'aspire' to be or not (there's no rule that says art has to be intentional, after all). And as art, I subject videogames to the same level of scrutiny as I would any novel, film, poem, painting or whatever.

So yes, I take race in videogames seriously. I take everything in videogames seriously. All art is intended for consumption by a wider public, and as such, every art piece, every videogame, delivers a very serious message (intentional or not), not only about its creator, but about the wider public that consumes it.

Yet you are conflating two things: inclusion and art. 

Getting more people to enjoy your work by virtue of adding features (including social agenda features, despite how much more noble that might seem) is equal parts deliberate "we want to give this group that has been neglected an opportunity many other games haven't" as it is "we want people from this same group to buy our games."

There is nothing, inherently, wrong with either of those things. But neither of those things are art. The art discussion doesn't even begin to register here. 

Also, to clarify, I'm all for a beefed up character creator that let's people make their PC black, white, asian or purple. As long as NPC characters with these physical appearance traits are not introduced in the game without at least SOME attempt to explain that. If we go from a game with less than a dozen Rivanni who could be considered "black" and no representation of any other races in the first two games to, suddenly, in DA:I there being every bandit group as the equally racially diverse criminal gangs you see only in bad movies of whites, blacks, Asians and Hispanics without any attempt of explanation, then THAT would be a poor violation of the narrative. 

[fchopin]

Fast Jimmy wrote...


Also, to clarify, I'm all for a beefed up character creator that let's people make their PC black, white, asian or purple. As long as NPC characters with these physical appearance traits are not introduced in the game without at least SOME attempt to explain that.

Yes but in DA2 you can play a male or female and the game does not really recognize that as most times it makes no difference.
You can also play an ugly character and everyone else thinks you are the best looking person in the universe so why would it be different for Black or Asian people?

[Star fury]

BlueMagitek wrote...

The best character in Jade Empire was the British dude though. ~_^

He had a German name. 

[Fast Jimmy]

fchopin wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...


Also, to clarify, I'm all for a beefed up character creator that let's people make their PC black, white, asian or purple. As long as NPC characters with these physical appearance traits are not introduced in the game without at least SOME attempt to explain that.

Yes but in DA2 you can play a male or female and the game does not really recognize that as most times it makes no difference.
You can also play an ugly character and everyone else thinks you are the best looking person in the universe so why would it be different for Black or Asian people?

Not what I'm saying, though. I'm fine with you being able to be a pink haired lizard man with muffins for hands and having no one comment on it. It would be a nice added bonus, but it wouldn't hurt the narrative.

If, however, there were suddenly a magical rainbow of real life ethnicities all over Thedas, without an attempt of saying "hey, there are these new races from a previously unknown land who have now flooded Thedas." A sentiment which Gaider has echoed similar agreement with in the past. 

[fchopin]

I agree with you that if a bunch of different races appeared in the game then there should be explanations.

[ruggly]

mat_mark wrote...
Also, I'm italian and I don't think there differences between italians and white people in general 

I may regret adding to this topic, but southern Italians and even more so, Sicilians will have a darker skin tone.  But then again, Sicilians are just a hodgepodge of everything due to having been invaded so many times.  I have Sicilian heritage myself, and my last name (Buscemi) is actually of Arabic descent.

Edit: if you're from Italy, then I feel stupid for replying because you would already know this.

Modifié par ruggly, 30 octobre 2013 - 11:55 .

[DarthLaxian]

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

 So, are we actually going to be able to make decent looking characters who are NOT white this time around? Like, you know, with non-European facial features and such?

I sure hope so. Mass Effect did alright, I was able to make a somewhat convincing looking Arab male Shepard, as well as an Indian female... though the craptacular lighting often made them look all pasty. Blegh.

But in DAO and DA2... terrible. Every single attempt failed miserably. All of my characters simply looked like a white person who fell into a vat of molasses. Mortifying. 

sorry but isn't this a little reverse-racism (sdiscriminating whites? - you imply that whites look stupid (!)) - i mean, i don't care what color a person is (sorry, but it's a non-issue for me - even though i grew up in bavaria (germany) with not many colored people around, but maybe that is why i don't have prejudices based on color (and i have met a lot of them by now, either while traveling in other countries or when i was in major cities like Munich))

so in essence:

i don't care - i just think that making this important is wrong (by all means, make it possible to make Asian looking characters and black characters and hispanics etc. but don't do it a the expense of other - and more important - things!)

greetings LAX

[AlexanderCousland]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

fchopin wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...


Also, to clarify, I'm all for a beefed up character creator that let's people make their PC black, white, asian or purple. As long as NPC characters with these physical appearance traits are not introduced in the game without at least SOME attempt to explain that.

Yes but in DA2 you can play a male or female and the game does not really recognize that as most times it makes no difference.
You can also play an ugly character and everyone else thinks you are the best looking person in the universe so why would it be different for Black or Asian people?

Not what I'm saying, though. I'm fine with you being able to be a pink haired lizard man with muffins for hands and having no one comment on it. It would be a nice added bonus, but it wouldn't hurt the narrative.

If, however, there were suddenly a magical rainbow of real life ethnicities all over Thedas, without an attempt of saying "hey, there are these new races from a previously unknown land who have now flooded Thedas." A sentiment which Gaider has echoed similar agreement with in the past. 

you have got to be smarter then this. YOU HAVE TO BE. Nobody is trying to "Flood"the game.
Nobody is trying to make inclusion= Everyone in the game is equally represented in number of npcs.
And if the number of people of color does increase THERE IS NO NEED FOR THEM TO EXPLAIN THEMSELVES.
How damned rude and inconsiderate can you be? "Hey you there human Npc, you are not white...EXPLAIN YOURSELF!"
The only races that need explanation in game are fictional ones. 

[Xilizhra]

Also, to clarify, I'm all for a beefed up character creator that let's people make their PC black, white, asian or purple. As long as NPC characters with these physical appearance traits are not introduced in the game without at least SOME attempt to explain that. If we go from a game with less than a dozen Rivanni who could be considered "black" and no representation of any other races in the first two games to, suddenly, in DA:I there being every bandit group as the equally racially diverse criminal gangs you see only in bad movies of whites, blacks, Asians and Hispanics without any attempt of explanation, then THAT would be a poor violation of the narrative.

Why would it matter, considering racial numbers weren't a plot point in either of the previous games and nothing would need to be retconned within the story? All it is is improving the models of background characters, something many could agree that DA2 needed plenty of in other ways.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 30 octobre 2013 - 12:12 .

[MisterJB]

FreshIstay wrote...
you have got to be smarter then this. YOU HAVE TO BE. Nobody is trying to "Flood"the game.
Nobody is trying to make inclusion= Everyone in the game is equally represented in number of npcs.
And if the number of people of color does increase THERE IS NO NEED FOR THEM TO EXPLAIN THEMSELVES.
How damned rude and inconsiderate can you be? "Hey you there human Npc, you are not white...EXPLAIN YOURSELF!"
The only races that need explanation in game are fictional ones. 

There is certainly a need for them to explain themselves. We have met representatives of each nation in Thedas so, we have a certain idea of what they look like. If we see rivaini looking characters in Ferelden, we can rationalize that they're either immigrants or their progeny. But if we start seeing asian people where before there was no a single one? Then there should, at the very least, be some explanations where they came from.
It can be something as simple as: they've lived in the remote Anderfels until now; altough then, depending on their numbers, you'd have to explain why they seem more prevalent now; but there needs to be an explanation as surely as there would need to be an explanation if suddenly a race of grey giants appeared; which is what happened with the Qunari.
Asians are as much of a distinct group of people as Qunari are and we shouldn't refrain from questioning where they came from just because we're afraid of offending real life asians.
And when I say asians, I could just as easily say any real life ethnicity that hasn't been represented in DA so far.

Modifié par MisterJB, 30 octobre 2013 - 12:22 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Xilizhra wrote...

Also, to clarify, I'm all for a beefed up character creator that let's people make their PC black, white, asian or purple. As long as NPC characters with these physical appearance traits are not introduced in the game without at least SOME attempt to explain that. If we go from a game with less than a dozen Rivanni who could be considered "black" and no representation of any other races in the first two games to, suddenly, in DA:I there being every bandit group as the equally racially diverse criminal gangs you see only in bad movies of whites, blacks, Asians and Hispanics without any attempt of explanation, then THAT would be a poor violation of the narrative.

Why would it matter, considering racial numbers weren't a plot point in either of the previous games and nothing would need to be retconned within the story? All it is is improving the models of background characters, something many could agree that DA2 needed plenty of in other ways.

 

The fact that you coined it as "improving" the characters is my cue to leave. You are not interested in maintaining the narrative integrative of the setting, but rather to seek out your own idealized rainbow-ethnicity world.

Which is all well and good, but don't act like it isn't stampeding on the narrative. If you think its racist that yet ANOTHER IP came out that featured a primarily white, European setting, blame Bioware. Call them racist. Don't point at me and say "that's offensive" when I'm not the one introducing the stereotype. My reasons for not wanting a sudden change in the entire phenotypical constituency of the population of Thedas without an attempt at an explanation is right along the same lines as a desire to not see Bioware suddenly introduce flying magic carpets or aliens.

Also, Gaider has echoed my same exact sentiment, that new real life ethnicities, no matter how nice to include for the same of inclusion, would not be done without at least an attempt at a plot explanation, such as "visitors from a distant land."

[AlexanderCousland]

DarthLaxian wrote...

TheButterflyEffect wrote...

 So, are we actually going to be able to make decent looking characters who are NOT white this time around? Like, you know, with non-European facial features and such?

I sure hope so. Mass Effect did alright, I was able to make a somewhat convincing looking Arab male Shepard, as well as an Indian female... though the craptacular lighting often made them look all pasty. Blegh.

But in DAO and DA2... terrible. Every single attempt failed miserably. All of my characters simply looked like a white person who fell into a vat of molasses. Mortifying. 

sorry but isn't this a little reverse-racism (sdiscriminating whites? - you imply that whites look stupid (!)) - i mean, i don't care what color a person is (sorry, but it's a non-issue for me - even though i grew up in bavaria (germany) with not many colored people around, but maybe that is why i don't have prejudices based on color (and i have met a lot of them by now, either while traveling in other countries or when i was in major cities like Munich))

so in essence:

i don't care - i just think that making this important is wrong (by all means, make it possible to make Asian looking characters and black characters and hispanics etc. but don't do it a the expense of other - and more important - things!)

greetings LAX

Im looking for the part where it says Whites look stupid...can't find it. I've never heard anyone say the reason they aren't prejudiced is because they grew up around All Whites. 

So in Essence:

you do care, because you wouldn't have posted in this thread.
What you actually DON'T CARE about is racial inclusion and The accurate statement would be "I prefer games continue to be mostly white, because there is so much more important things then seeing  different skin tones" that's what you should have said, honesty, try it.

[Xilizhra]

The fact that you coined it as "improving" the characters is my cue to leave. You are not interested in maintaining the narrative integrative of the setting, but rather to seek out your own idealized rainbow-ethnicity world.

For me personally? I'm white, privileged, and would never notice unrealistic imbalances like this unless someone else pointed them out to me. But having unrealistically huge white majorities is just such a nonissue in the game that I have no problem with people wanting to change it.

Which is all well and good, but don't act like it isn't stampeding on the narrative. If you think its racist that yet ANOTHER IP came out that featured a primarily white, European setting, blame Bioware. Call them racist. Don't point at me and say "that's offensive" when I'm not the one introducing the stereotype. My reasons for not wanting a sudden change in the entire phenotypical constituency of the population of Thedas without an attempt at an explanation is right along the same lines as a desire to not see Bioware suddenly introduce flying magic carpets or aliens.

You'd still have a sizable white majority, in all likelihood, it would just not have 100% of background NPCs be white. In any case, I don't think we're going back to Ferelden or Kirkwall, so racial ratios may very well be different in wherever we go in Inquisition.

Also, Gaider has echoed my same exact sentiment, that new real life ethnicities, no matter how nice to include for the same of inclusion, would not be done without at least an attempt at a plot explanation, such as "visitors from a distant land."

All right. Drop it in once, then no problem.

[Reznore57]

I sort of don't understand the probem here.
Thedas isn't Europe at all , it was inspired by it ....that's it.

It is stated in the lore in Thedas human skin goes from pale to ebony.
In the north there is some tropical jungle , and elephants ...the Anderfels which is a bit inspired by germany is mostly really dry steppes.

Mages are send to foreign circle ,same probably goes for Chantry folks like templars , sisters and such ,the order of the grey warden have also men in different country and they move depending on the threat.
The Blights, fall of the Empires (orlesian /Tevinter) the qunari invasions ,the old and current Tevinter slaves trade , people trading their goods, fleeing war (Leliana mother end up in Orlais) ,the Exalted Marches all of this are very good reason to explain why in Fereldan you could find people with darker skin .
I mean Rivain where we know for sure more or less 200 years ago the qunari invaded and the Chantry went all Exalted March ...I don't think the locals just stand there waiting to be butchered.
Some just probably act like the Hawke family , they flee and tried to settle in other countries.

[Han Shot First]

The argument that because the people who were native to Europe during the Middle Ages were white, Dragon Age shouldn't have characters from other ethnic backgrounds, doesn't really hold water.

For starters Thedas is not Medieval Europe, even if it is loosely based on the history and cultures of Medieval Europe. Second, Medieval Europe was not entirely populated by white people. There were Moors in Spain, Turks in the Balkans, and traders from all over the Middle East and North Africa in Italian ports. The Mongols invaded parts of Eastern Europe. You also had a diplomatic mission from Ethiopia to Rome during the medieval period. So the history of medieval Europe does not even support the exclusion of characters who are not white.

[AlexanderCousland]

MisterJB wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...
you have got to be smarter then this. YOU HAVE TO BE. Nobody is trying to "Flood"the game.
Nobody is trying to make inclusion= Everyone in the game is equally represented in number of npcs.
And if the number of people of color does increase THERE IS NO NEED FOR THEM TO EXPLAIN THEMSELVES.
How damned rude and inconsiderate can you be? "Hey you there human Npc, you are not white...EXPLAIN YOURSELF!"
The only races that need explanation in game are fictional ones. 

There is certainly a need for them to explain themselves. We have met representatives of each nation in Thedas so, we have a certain idea of what they look like. If we see rivaini looking characters in Ferelden, we can rationalize that they're either immigrants or their progeny. But if we start seeing asian people where before there was no a single one? Then there should, at the very least, be some explanations where they came from.
It can be something as simple as: they've lived in the remote Anderfels until now; altough then, depending on their numbers, you'd have to explain why they seem more prevalent now; but there needs to be an explanation as surely as there would need to be an explanation if suddenly a race of grey giants appeared; which is what happened with the Qunari.
Asians are as much of a distinct group of people as Qunari are and we shouldn't refrain from questioning where they came from just because we're afraid of offending real life asians.
And when I say asians, I could just as easily say any real life ethnicity that hasn't been represented in DA so far.

How about this explanation, "They came to Thedas with everyone else"
Nobody is asking for the entire population of Chinatown to suddenly be dropped in game. Just different colors sprinkled on the icing, if you will. 

[AlexanderCousland]

Han Shot First wrote...

The argument that because the people who were native to Europe during the Middle Ages were white, Dragon Age shouldn't have characters from other ethnic backgrounds, doesn't really hold water.

For starters Thedas is not Medieval Europe, even if it is loosely based on the history and cultures of Medieval Europe. Second, Medieval Europe was not entirely populated by white people. There were Moors in Spain, Turks in the Balkans, and traders from all over the Middle East and North Africa in Italian ports. The Mongols invaded parts of Eastern Europe. You also had a diplomatic mission from Ethiopia to Rome during the medieval period. So the history of medieval Europe does not even support the exclusion of characters who are not white.

Breath of fresh air that someone besides myself realizes this. Really surprising people think that.