249 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexanderCousland]

Reznore57 wrote...

I sort of don't understand the probem here.
Thedas isn't Europe at all , it was inspired by it ....that's it.

It is stated in the lore in Thedas human skin goes from pale to ebony.
In the north there is some tropical jungle , and elephants ...the Anderfels which is a bit inspired by germany is mostly really dry steppes.

Mages are send to foreign circle ,same probably goes for Chantry folks like templars , sisters and such ,the order of the grey warden have also men in different country and they move depending on the threat.
The Blights, fall of the Empires (orlesian /Tevinter) the qunari invasions ,the old and current Tevinter slaves trade , people trading their goods, fleeing war (Leliana mother end up in Orlais) ,the Exalted Marches all of this are very good reason to explain why in Fereldan you could find people with darker skin .
I mean Rivain where we know for sure more or less 200 years ago the qunari invaded and the Chantry went all Exalted March ...I don't think the locals just stand there waiting to be butchered.
Some just probably act like the Hawke family , they flee and tried to settle in other countries.

My sentiments exactly.
Explanation' s should be regulated to non-humans.
Humans shouldn't have to explain their Skin tone to other Humans in a Human dominated world, especially a homophobic free Human world.

[Wulfram]

People in Thedas should be predominantly white because that's how people in Thedas have been represented.

But it would be easy enough to include other ethnicities in moderate numbers, in addition to people of the already establish rivaini descent, because we've only got a pretty limited view of Thedas. We've only seen one person from the Anderfels as far as I'm aware, which doesn't give us much basis to judge their ethnic mix. Orlais is pretty big, if it turned out the people of, say, Mont-de-Glace claimed a different origin - say they arrived in the region slightly earlier during the migrations that brought humanity to the region and allied with the Cyriane through marriage - to others in the Empire that wouldn't be at all odd.

[Fast Jimmy]

Han Shot First wrote...

The argument that because the people who were native to Europe during the Middle Ages were white, Dragon Age shouldn't have characters from other ethnic backgrounds, doesn't really hold water.

For starters Thedas is not Medieval Europe, even if it is loosely based on the history and cultures of Medieval Europe. Second, Medieval Europe was not entirely populated by white people. There were Moors in Spain, Turks in the Balkans, and traders from all over the Middle East and North Africa in Italian ports. The Mongols invaded parts of Eastern Europe. You also had a diplomatic mission from Ethiopia to Rome during the medieval period. So the history of medieval Europe does not even support the exclusion of characters who are not white.

Okay... but you know what DOES support the idea of Thedas being pre-dominantly white? Not the history of Europe - the history of Thedas. Every major human ethnicity barring the Rivanni is white. And, if you've ever looked at a map of Thedas, you'd see how far away the island of Rivain is. One of the closer locations to Rivain is Kirkwall. Kirkwall, where we saw less than a dozen Rivani. And nowhere in the lore does it allow for any other ethnicity such as Asian in its list of known countries or people. "Known" being the operative word here. 

Does that mean a place like Orlais, being a more economic and cultural hub couldn't have a few more Rivanni than we saw in previous games? Sure, that wouldn't be a stretch or require an explanation. But if suddenly Bioware were to make the ratios 50:50 (or even 30:70), let alone introduce any new real life ethnicities "just because" without an attempt at giving an explanation is the same type of ludicrous mindset as if Bioware included spaceships or machine guns "just because." You could say they would add those elements to make the sci-fi fans feel more included. That doesn't make it a violation of basic narrative consistency. 

[Xilizhra]

Okay... but you know what DOES support the idea of Thedas being pre-dominantly white? Not the history of Europe - the history of Thedas. Every major human ethnicity barring the Rivanni is white. And, if you've ever looked at a map of Thedas, you'd see how far away the island of Rivain is. One of the closer locations to Rivain is Kirkwall. Kirkwall, where we saw less than a dozen Rivani. And nowhere in the lore does it allow for any other ethnicity such as Asian in its list of known countries or people. "Known" being the operative word here.

Antivans are pretty brown, and Nevarrans may have some mixing going on; neither Cassandra nor that Ginnis woman looked lilywhite by any means.

[Fast Jimmy]

Wulfram wrote...

People in Thedas should be predominantly white because that's how people in Thedas have been represented.

But it would be easy enough to include other ethnicities in moderate numbers, in addition to people of the already establish rivaini descent, because we've only got a pretty limited view of Thedas. We've only seen one person from the Anderfels as far as I'm aware, which doesn't give us much basis to judge their ethnic mix. Orlais is pretty big, if it turned out the people of, say, Mont-de-Glace claimed a different origin - say they arrived in the region slightly earlier during the migrations that brought humanity to the region and allied with the Cyriane through marriage - to others in the Empire that wouldn't be at all odd.

Yes! Good. This is great. It allows for differences AND it is a narrative explanation (and a pretty solid one, at that).

My real problem is those who are saying "Bioware should include people of color and they don't need a single reason or explanation for doing so." That is purposefully delegitimizing the setting, lore and story for your own tastes and desires. Granted, those desires are valid (there are a TON of predominantly white fantasy RPGs and video games out there), but the ship has sailed on Dragon Age being set up as a multi-racial setting UNLESS there are some events or changes in the setting and lore. Changes that would need to be explained, in game. 

[AlexanderCousland]

Wulfram wrote...

People in Thedas should be predominantly white because that's how people in Thedas have been represented.

But it would be easy enough to include other ethnicities in moderate numbers, in addition to people of the already establish rivaini descent, because we've only got a pretty limited view of Thedas. We've only seen one person from the Anderfels as far as I'm aware, which doesn't give us much basis to judge their ethnic mix. Orlais is pretty big, if it turned out the people of, say, Mont-de-Glace claimed a different origin - say they arrived in the region slightly earlier during the migrations that brought humanity to the region and allied with the Cyriane through marriage - to others in the Empire that wouldn't be at all odd.

I agree. But to be clear, I Dont think anyone here was advocating for Whites to become a minority in numbers.
I just think people jumped to the conclusion that More Minorities means "Colored people taking over Thedas in drones". Overreaction.

[Fast Jimmy]

Xilizhra wrote...

Okay... but you know what DOES support the idea of Thedas being pre-dominantly white? Not the history of Europe - the history of Thedas. Every major human ethnicity barring the Rivanni is white. And, if you've ever looked at a map of Thedas, you'd see how far away the island of Rivain is. One of the closer locations to Rivain is Kirkwall. Kirkwall, where we saw less than a dozen Rivani. And nowhere in the lore does it allow for any other ethnicity such as Asian in its list of known countries or people. "Known" being the operative word here.

Antivans are pretty brown, and Nevarrans may have some mixing going on; neither Cassandra nor that Ginnis woman looked lilywhite by any means.

Who said "every character must be lily white?" Not me. Not the DA lore. 

The narrative doesn't prevent anyone from having a tan, for Pete's sake. 

[Xilizhra]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Okay... but you know what DOES support the idea of Thedas being pre-dominantly white? Not the history of Europe - the history of Thedas. Every major human ethnicity barring the Rivanni is white. And, if you've ever looked at a map of Thedas, you'd see how far away the island of Rivain is. One of the closer locations to Rivain is Kirkwall. Kirkwall, where we saw less than a dozen Rivani. And nowhere in the lore does it allow for any other ethnicity such as Asian in its list of known countries or people. "Known" being the operative word here.

Antivans are pretty brown, and Nevarrans may have some mixing going on; neither Cassandra nor that Ginnis woman looked lilywhite by any means.

Who said "every character must be lily white?" Not me. Not the DA lore. 

The narrative doesn't prevent anyone from having a tan, for Pete's sake. 

It also doesn't prevent there having been other ethnicities in countries we haven't been to.

[AlexanderCousland]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

People in Thedas should be predominantly white because that's how people in Thedas have been represented.

But it would be easy enough to include other ethnicities in moderate numbers, in addition to people of the already establish rivaini descent, because we've only got a pretty limited view of Thedas. We've only seen one person from the Anderfels as far as I'm aware, which doesn't give us much basis to judge their ethnic mix. Orlais is pretty big, if it turned out the people of, say, Mont-de-Glace claimed a different origin - say they arrived in the region slightly earlier during the migrations that brought humanity to the region and allied with the Cyriane through marriage - to others in the Empire that wouldn't be at all odd.

Yes! Good. This is great. It allows for differences AND it is a narrative explanation (and a pretty solid one, at that).

My real problem is those who are saying "Bioware should include people of color and they don't need a single reason or explanation for doing so." That is purposefully delegitimizing the setting, lore and story for your own tastes and desires. Granted, those desires are valid (there are a TON of predominantly white fantasy RPGs and video games out there), but the ship has sailed on Dragon Age being set up as a multi-racial setting UNLESS there are some events or changes in the setting and lore. Changes that would need to be explained, in game. 

They dont need an explanation to be in the game Jimmy. They Don't. Especially when they are already there. The ship hasn't sailed on a Mutli-Racial setting IF it's already a multi-racial setting. And just because you feel that including people with different skin tones (in a game with elves and horned giants) somehow Deligitimizes the Whiteness of the Lore, a setting where we've seen POC's (albeit a small few), and the Story then that's your problem. 

[Han Shot First]

The Rivaini are said to have skin tones that range from tan to ebony. Obviously at least some of them are black.

To me this would also seem to indicate that the ethnogenesis of the Rivaini was a merger between two or more unrelated tribal groups, at least one of which was black. Surely those people didn't spring up out of the Earth in Rivain, and there must be other peoples related to them elsewhere in the world. There may be other black people living in lands controlled by the Qunari.

And there are the mysterious Fex, who we don't know much about yet. Who is to say they might not look Asian, or Middle-Eastern, or African, or like some other group other than Western European?

I don't think there is anything in the lore preventing the inclusion of characters who don't look European.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 30 octobre 2013 - 01:33 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Xilizhra wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Okay... but you know what DOES support the idea of Thedas being pre-dominantly white? Not the history of Europe - the history of Thedas. Every major human ethnicity barring the Rivanni is white. And, if you've ever looked at a map of Thedas, you'd see how far away the island of Rivain is. One of the closer locations to Rivain is Kirkwall. Kirkwall, where we saw less than a dozen Rivani. And nowhere in the lore does it allow for any other ethnicity such as Asian in its list of known countries or people. "Known" being the operative word here.

Antivans are pretty brown, and Nevarrans may have some mixing going on; neither Cassandra nor that Ginnis woman looked lilywhite by any means.

Who said "every character must be lily white?" Not me. Not the DA lore. 

The narrative doesn't prevent anyone from having a tan, for Pete's sake. 

It also doesn't prevent there having been other ethnicities in countries we haven't been to.

It is hindered (but I agree, not prevented) by the fact that we have met or seen someone from every major nationality in the game, except for the Fex. Does that mean the small number of people we have seen from those areas are the end-all, be all in how those nationalities look? No, of course not. 

But if, suddenly, there is a population of Hispanic looking NPCs milling around the streets of Orlais (for the record, I don't even know what a Hispanic-looking character would look like versus, say, a Greek looking character, but I am also sure that many Hispanic gamers feel they don't have many video game characters that look like them, so I'll just assume Bioware can create NPCs that fill this appearance role), they could give the explanation that people from the Anderfells take on many different appearances, wih Anders being one and Hispanic NPC #2 being another. But then we'd need to see some Anderfellians somewhere down the line who look like Anders, or who look like a cross between the two sets - a Hispanic Anders. A Hispanders...?

Point being, it would need and get an explanation in the game. To say otherwise is not only illogical, but actively harms the narratives continuity and is also not what Bioware is going to do, as per their Lead Writer. 

Anyone who who wants to argue otherwise is not only wrong (since Bioware has stated their approach on this), but also actively working to devalue the story of Bioware games, which is what the vast majority of compliments and praise about Bioware's games are about. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 30 octobre 2013 - 01:36 .

[Xilizhra]

But if, suddenly, there is a population of Hispanic looking NPCs milling around the streets of Orlais (for the record, I don't even know what a Hispanic-looking character would look like versus, say, a Greek looking character, but I am also sure that many Hispanic gamers feel they don't have many video game characters that look like them, so I'll just assume Bioware can create NPCs that fill this appearance role), they could give the explanation that people from the Anderfells take on many different appearances, wih Anders being one and Hispanic NPC #2 being another. But then we'd need to see some Anderfellians somewhere down the line who look like Anders, or who look like a cross between the two sets - a Hispanic Anders. A Hispanders...?

Uh, Antivans already more or less look that way.

[Br3admax]

No, they really don't.

[Jorji Costava]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Okay... but you know what DOES support the idea of Thedas being pre-dominantly white? Not the history of Europe - the history of Thedas. Every major human ethnicity barring the Rivanni is white. And, if you've ever looked at a map of Thedas, you'd see how far away the island of Rivain is. One of the closer locations to Rivain is Kirkwall. Kirkwall, where we saw less than a dozen Rivani. And nowhere in the lore does it allow for any other ethnicity such as Asian in its list of known countries or people. "Known" being the operative word here. 

Does that mean a place like Orlais, being a more economic and cultural hub couldn't have a few more Rivanni than we saw in previous games? Sure, that wouldn't be a stretch or require an explanation. But if suddenly Bioware were to make the ratios 50:50 (or even 30:70), let alone introduce any new real life ethnicities "just because" without an attempt at giving an explanation is the same type of ludicrous mindset as if Bioware included spaceships or machine guns "just because." You could say they would add those elements to make the sci-fi fans feel more included. That doesn't make it a violation of basic narrative consistency.

I guess my view is, why wouldn't a simple retcon suffice? Retcons happen, and they aren't the end of the world. In Q Who, the Star Trek episode that introduces us to the Borg, it's clearly established that the Borg are only interested in our technology; the whole business about assimilation is a retcon introduced in The Best of Both Worlds. In Encounter at Farpoint, it's heavily implied that the Ferengi eat sentient beings. But if you're watching Deep Space 9 thinking, "You know what, I don't like that Quark, because I bet he eats people," that's just not the right way to do it. I don't think that anyone would argue that The Best of Both Worlds or the Ferengi episodes on DS9 destroyed the Star Trek universe. Sometimes, lore consistency isn't the be-all end-all it's made out to be. As long as you're reasonably explicit about the retcon, I don't think it would necessarily be a huge deal.

As far as the comparison to spaceships or machine guns, I think that's an issue more of genre consistency than lore consistency. Even if you had a very detailed explanation, in terms of the lore, of how mages would end up constructing devices that look and function exactly like machine guns or spaceships, people would probably have a tough time buying it, because they're genre staples of scifi, rather than fantasy. I agree that these elements would take you out of the universe, but I don't think the addition of a few codex entries or some such would rectify that. The issue goes beyond the lore.

None of this is to say that there needs to be a 50:50 or even 80:20 relation of white people to minorities in Thedas, but I do think there's at least room for a handful of minority characters who play more than a token role. The other half of the issue is that I think (for reasons given above) that issues of lore consistency tend to be a bit overblown in general, not just with regards to this particular issue.

[Fast Jimmy]

FreshIstay wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

People in Thedas should be predominantly white because that's how people in Thedas have been represented.

But it would be easy enough to include other ethnicities in moderate numbers, in addition to people of the already establish rivaini descent, because we've only got a pretty limited view of Thedas. We've only seen one person from the Anderfels as far as I'm aware, which doesn't give us much basis to judge their ethnic mix. Orlais is pretty big, if it turned out the people of, say, Mont-de-Glace claimed a different origin - say they arrived in the region slightly earlier during the migrations that brought humanity to the region and allied with the Cyriane through marriage - to others in the Empire that wouldn't be at all odd.

Yes! Good. This is great. It allows for differences AND it is a narrative explanation (and a pretty solid one, at that).

My real problem is those who are saying "Bioware should include people of color and they don't need a single reason or explanation for doing so." That is purposefully delegitimizing the setting, lore and story for your own tastes and desires. Granted, those desires are valid (there are a TON of predominantly white fantasy RPGs and video games out there), but the ship has sailed on Dragon Age being set up as a multi-racial setting UNLESS there are some events or changes in the setting and lore. Changes that would need to be explained, in game. 

They dont need an explanation to be in the game Jimmy. They Don't. Especially when they are already there. The ship hasn't sailed on a Mutli-Racial setting IF it's already a multi-racial setting. And just because you feel that including people with different skin tones (in a game with elves and horned giants) somehow Deligitimizes the Whiteness of the Lore, a setting where we've seen POC's (albeit a small few), and the Story then that's your problem. 

Actually, you're wrong. It's YOUR problem. Because, by and large, I don't have a problem with Bioware's approach to attempt to explain things in their game. And, as I've now said multiple times, David Gaider, Lead Writer of the DA series and the heavy lifter when it comes to the world-building section of the setting and lore, says they WON'T introduce any new ethnicities into the setting without an explanation. 

So Bioware is doing it the way I'd prefer. It's YOUR problem if you want them to do it differently. 

[Wulfram]

FreshIstay wrote...

I agree. But to be clear, I Dont think anyone here was advocating for Whites to become a minority in numbers.
I just think people jumped to the conclusion that More Minorities means "Colored people taking over Thedas in drones". Overreaction.

I get the impression both "sides" are talking past each other a bit, and arguing against more extreme positions than the other is actually advocating

[Fast Jimmy]

I guess my view is, why wouldn't a simple retcon suffice? Retcons happen, and they aren't the end of the world.

Retcons aren't the end of the world, but they harm narrative consistency. It basically is the writing team saying "we messed up managing our own story." Not unheard of or disastrous in the extreme, but it does harm thing when you say "We changed our minds, so elements X, Y and Z are now different. Please insert your money here for more haphazardly created story."

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 30 octobre 2013 - 01:45 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Wulfram wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

I agree. But to be clear, I Dont think anyone here was advocating for Whites to become a minority in numbers.
I just think people jumped to the conclusion that More Minorities means "Colored people taking over Thedas in drones". Overreaction.

I get the impression both "sides" are talking past each other a bit, and arguing against more extreme positions than the other is actually advocating

I disagree. FreshIsStay is arguing Bioware should he able to change the entire appearance and demographic of their world without even an attempt at an explanation. To me, that's QUITE extreme. 

[AlexanderCousland]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
But if, suddenly, there is a population of Hispanic looking NPCs milling around the streets of Orlais.

• Here is the kind of overreaction Im talking about.  Nobody is trying to drop Mexico in Thedas and no one region Inside of Thedas belongs to any skin color. People of any color can be from anywhere in Thedas and that need not be explained so people with privilege can feel better.

[Han Shot First]

@Fast Jimmy

FreshIstay does have a point. There are already some dark-skinned people in the world of Thedas. The Rivaini are one such example. A couple of the Chasind looked dark-skinned as well. Like the Rivaini the Chasind seem to be ethnically diverse.

Beyond those two groups there are the Fex, who we don't much about, and potentially other nations or cultures who have yet to be introduced in the lore. Not much of the world of Thedas has been revealed yet.

[syllogi]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...

I agree. But to be clear, I Dont think anyone here was advocating for Whites to become a minority in numbers.
I just think people jumped to the conclusion that More Minorities means "Colored people taking over Thedas in drones". Overreaction.

I get the impression both "sides" are talking past each other a bit, and arguing against more extreme positions than the other is actually advocating

I disagree. FreshIsStay is arguing Bioware should he able to change the entire appearance and demographic of their world without even an attempt at an explanation. To me, that's QUITE extreme. 

So did you have a problem with qunari being retconned with no in game explanation in DA2?

Modifié par syllogi, 30 octobre 2013 - 01:49 .

[AresKeith]

FreshIstay wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

People in Thedas should be predominantly white because that's how people in Thedas have been represented.

But it would be easy enough to include other ethnicities in moderate numbers, in addition to people of the already establish rivaini descent, because we've only got a pretty limited view of Thedas. We've only seen one person from the Anderfels as far as I'm aware, which doesn't give us much basis to judge their ethnic mix. Orlais is pretty big, if it turned out the people of, say, Mont-de-Glace claimed a different origin - say they arrived in the region slightly earlier during the migrations that brought humanity to the region and allied with the Cyriane through marriage - to others in the Empire that wouldn't be at all odd.

I agree. But to be clear, I Dont think anyone here was advocating for Whites to become a minority in numbers.
I just think people jumped to the conclusion that More Minorities means "Colored people taking over Thedas in drones". Overreaction.

Except they're not, what they're saying if that if there is gonna be races added (Asians for example) then yes there will need to be an explanation on where they came from

Just because Thedas isn't solely based on Medieval doesn't mean it can added at will.without explanation

[Das Tentakel]

Han Shot First wrote...

The argument that because the people who were native to Europe during the Middle Ages were white, Dragon Age shouldn't have characters from other ethnic backgrounds, doesn't really hold water.

For starters Thedas is not Medieval Europe, even if it is loosely based on the history and cultures of Medieval Europe. Second, Medieval Europe was not entirely populated by white people. There were Moors in Spain, Turks in the Balkans, and traders from all over the Middle East and North Africa in Italian ports. The Mongols invaded parts of Eastern Europe. You also had a diplomatic mission from Ethiopia to Rome during the medieval period. So the history of medieval Europe does not even support the exclusion of characters who are not white.

That kind of argument is pretty weak if you want to base some degree of 'inclusivism' on it, however.
Just because China has an embassy in Iceland doesn't mean that it's suddenly 'normal' for a significant number of Icelanders to look Chinese, just as the Mongol armies´ raping and pillaging in 13th century Poland suddenly makes it 'normal' for Poles to look like Mongols.

Regardless of this, Thedas only borrows medieval Europe's torn-off and mutilated flapping skin, crudely painted with the rough outlines of yet another generic fantasy setting (which has the advantages of familiarity and flexibility). Using any historical parallels however is madness, as BioWare can and does what it likes with the setting, without being overly burdened by historical parallellism, science or even sense.

[CrabbyCrackers]

i don't understand the big deal, if someone wants there PC to have another skin tone besides white and have them look the part in facial features whats the big deal? Why shouldn't they have that option, the fact that a lot of games don't offer the option is kind of insulting i would think. Not everyone is white, get over it.

[Fast Jimmy]

FreshIstay wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...
But if, suddenly, there is a population of Hispanic looking NPCs milling around the streets of Orlais.

• Here is the kind of overreaction Im talking about.  Nobody is trying to drop Mexico in Thedas and no one region Inside of Thedas belongs to any skin color. People of any color can be from anywhere in Thedas and that need not be explained so people with privilege can feel better.

I feel like looping back to the Jade Empire discussion, since you seem to be implying white people can't play games with non-whites in them without them needing to check their privilege. But that topic has already come up to no avail to anyone. 

Your quarrels aren't with me. They are with Bioware for making a predominantly white setting for their game and for (in my opinion, smartly) adhering to a policy of trying to manage any changes to that setting through logical, in game explanations or events. If you don't like the fact that Bioware did/is doing those things, sorry Jack. I'm not the person you should be mad with.  

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 30 octobre 2013 - 01:55 .