381 réponses à ce sujet

[Vigilant111]

Xilizhra wrote...

Genocide is against the law, reapers committed genocide. How would you punish the reapers?

That's sort of like punishing physical concentration camps and not the people running them. And the Catalyst is gone now.

Oh? Concentration camps are torned down usually, are u suggesting destroy is the most virtuous path?

Gone where?

[Tron Mega]

Xilizhra wrote...

Genocide is against the law, reapers committed genocide. How would you punish the reapers?

That's sort of like punishing physical concentration camps and not the people running them. And the Catalyst is gone now.

so we punish the leviathons.

(id think itd be easier if bioware would just fire hudson and walters.)

[Eryri]

Obadiah wrote...

Shepard Considers Synthesis

C: ...It is not something that can be forced. You are ready, and you may chose it.

S: I get it. It's about love.

C: Yes, it's about... wait, what?

S: I love the galaxy. Everyone. Liara and her scaley delicate features; Ashley with those full pouting lips; Tali and her fantastic curves; Hackett and his strong commanding voice; Jacob and those sculpted protective pecks; Miranda... well... do I really need to elaborate on Miranda?

With Synthesis, I can finally show them all how I feel at once. I'll allow the Crucible's energy to enter me, to fill every fiber of myself with its power, and then at the climax of our sick debased energetic union I'll explode all over the universe. 

Huh... I just realised, the entire Asari race!

In one glorious act, I can blast my... "organic energy"... all over THAT!

Yeah, my body is ready, but is my mind...? I just don't know.

C: Well, there's also the Yagh, the Batarian, the Rachni, the ...

S: I don't care if they watch. Where's that damn beam? This is going to be fantastic for everybody!

C: Look, I made a mistake. Clearly Organics are not ready. You showing up here in the chamber -  it was just dumb luck. Maybe you should step away...

--------------------------------------

Minutes later, Krogans inspect weird green crap covering themselves and think, "WTF?"

Eww!

I did laugh though. 

[ruggly]

Obadiah wrote...

Shepard Considers Synthesis

C: ...It is not something that can be forced. You are ready, and you may chose it.

S: I get it. It's about love.

C: Yes, it's about... wait, what?

S: I love the galaxy. Everyone. Liara and her scaley delicate features; Ashley with those full pouting lips; Tali and her fantastic curves; Hackett and his strong commanding voice; Jacob and those sculpted protective pecks; Miranda... well... do I really need to elaborate on Miranda?

With Synthesis, I can finally show them all how I feel at once. I'll allow the Crucible's energy to enter me, to fill every fiber of myself with its power, and then at the climax of our sick debased energetic union I'll explode all over the universe. 

Huh... I just realised, the entire Asari race!

In one glorious act, I can blast my... "organic energy"... all over THAT!

Yeah, my body is ready, but is my mind...? I just don't know.

C: Well, there's also the Yagh, the Batarian, the Rachni, the ...

S: I don't care if they watch. Where's that damn beam? This is going to be fantastic for everybody!

C: Look, I made a mistake. Clearly Organics are not ready. You showing up here in the chamber -  it was just dumb luck. Maybe you should step away...

--------------------------------------

Minutes later, Krogans inspect weird green crap covering themselves and think, "WTF?"

Giggity.

[Xilizhra]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
I'm quite certain that uploading oneself into a computer is not illegal.

Why don't you give it a go then, and report back how you get on?

What makes you think I didn't already do so?

[ElSuperGecko]

The Mad Hanar wrote...
Dude, I was saying that Destroy is hardly a change at all. It's restoring the galaxy to it's previous state. You gotta read closer.

*sigh* 

Sovereign wrote...
"Rudimentary creature of blood and flesh, you touch my mind, fumbling in ignorance..."

I know exactly what you're attempting to say Hanar, and the answer is still:
 
LOL, no, you're wrong.

Sovereign wrote...
The pattern has repeated itself more times than you can fathom. Organic civilizations rise, evolve, advance, and at the apex of their glory they are extinguished. The Protheans were not the first. They did not create the Citadel. They did not forge the mass relays. They mere found them - the legacy of my kind.
Your civilization is based on the technology of the mass relays. Our technology. By using it, your civilization develops along the paths we desire. We impose order on the chaos of organic life. You exist because we allow it, and you will end because we demand it."

Destroying the Reapers does not restore the galaxy to it's previous state, because it's previous state was "Cyclical extinction and evolution engineered and designed by the Reapers."  That cycle is broken in Destroy.  It's over - and in galactic terms, that's change.

Control, Synthesis and Refuse, on the other hand - they all (to one extent/extreme or another) - involve continuing along the path the Reapers laid out for us.  Accepting their ideas, their methods and their logic (or just giving up and allowing them to do what they will - the cycle continues).  That is not change - that's following the pre-ordained path set out for us by the Catalyst.  That's simply continuing the status quo.

Harbinger wrote...
"They will succumb and ascend... or they will be annihilated."

Modifié par ElSuperGecko, 30 octobre 2013 - 03:56 .

[dorktainian]

all three endings are 'change'

however only 'destroy' allows us to control our own destiny,

[ghost9191]

Xilizhra wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
I'm quite certain that uploading oneself into a computer is not illegal.

Why don't you give it a go then, and report back how you get on?

What makes you think I didn't already do so?

true.

I personally was always more concerned with the result rather than the method of gaining control. Though there is risk in choosing it, that goes in the result category

Modifié par ghost9191, 30 octobre 2013 - 04:31 .

[AlanC9]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Control, Synthesis and Refuse, on the other hand - they all (to one extent/extreme or another) - involve continuing along the path the Reapers laid out for us.  Accepting their ideas, their methods and their logic (or just giving up and allowing them to do what they will - the cycle continues).  That is not change - that's following the pre-ordained path set out for us by the Catalyst.  That's simply continuing the status quo.

I don't see how this is true for Control, except in a trivial sense.

[ElSuperGecko]

AlanC9 wrote...
I don't see how this is true for Control, except in a trivial sense.

It may look trivial in the immediate short-term, but I wonder how it will look in 100,000+ years?

Essentially, Control replaces one immortal AI commanding an invincible immortal space cuttlefish armada with a new-and-improved AI that commands an invincible, immortal space cuttlefish armada.  Anything else is simply conjecture (plenty of speculations for everybody).  So where's the change?

Modifié par ElSuperGecko, 30 octobre 2013 - 04:49 .

[ElSuperGecko]

The Mad Hanar wrote...
What a turly riveting and thought out reply. I applaud you, sir.

I see you quoted the only part of the post you could successfully debate.  Well done.

[AlanC9]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
I don't see how this is true for Control, except in a trivial sense.

It may look trivial in the immediate short-term, but I wonder how it will look in 100,000+ years?

Essentially, Control replaces one immortal AI commanding an invincible immortal space cuttlefish armada with a new-and-improved AI that commands an invincible, immortal space cuttlefish armada.  Anything else is simply conjecture (plenty of speculations for everybody).

So the Sheplyst commands through having a bigger space fleet than anyone else? That's how the Council rolled before the Reapers came back, too. There's no difference in means here.

(Whether that fleet remains invincible for millenia is at the Sheplyst's discretion. There's nothing magic about the Reapers -- a sufficiently developed galaxy can build more ships and better ships than they had at the time of ME3. But if your Sheplyst would prevent that from happening, that's your right.)

So much for means. Methods are at the Sheplyst's discretion. As for logic, a Shepard who actually accepts the Catalyst's logic should probably pick Synthesis rather than Control. Of course, a low-EMS Shepard who agrees with the Catalyst may have to get there the long way via Control, and you can make a case that it would be better to do it that way in any case, either as a matter of ethics or simply to prepare people for the future.

[Obadiah]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
I don't see how this is true for Control, except in a trivial sense.

It may look trivial in the immediate short-term, but I wonder how it will look in 100,000+ years?

Essentially, Control replaces one immortal AI commanding an invincible immortal space cuttlefish armada with a new-and-improved AI that commands an invincible, immortal space cuttlefish armada.  Anything else is simply conjecture (plenty of speculations for everybody).  So where's the change?

Couldn't you ask the same of any ending, even ones players wish they had that wasn't in that game? We can't predict the future. The EC gave us a glimpse, but all we could ever do was make the best decision with the information at hand.

Modifié par Obadiah, 30 octobre 2013 - 05:00 .

[ElSuperGecko]

AlanC9 wrote...
So the Sheplyst commands through having a bigger space fleet than anyone else? That's how the Council rolled before the Reapers came back, too. There's no difference in means here.

Not quite what I was getting at AlanC9.

Destroy creates an immediate and immense galactic change - the Reapers are gone, the epoch-spanning cycle of extinction is over, the evolutionary future of the galaxy is thrown wide open, and the galaxy is essentially "free" to pursue it's own destiny as a result.

Control, however, simply replaces the Reapers controlling AI with another, somewhat different controlling AI.  The endings make it clear the Reapers are not going anywhere, so the galaxy will continue to be influenced by their presence.

Player agency in the game ends with Shepard's final decision.  Following that decision, the player has no direct input.  You can speculate what you would like to see the Shepalyst do following "Control", but such speculation isn't the same as the direct and immediate shift we see Destroy.

[ElSuperGecko]

Obadiah wrote...
Couldn't you ask the same of any ending, even ones players wish they had that wasn't in that game? We can't predict the future. The EC gave us a glimpse, but all we could ever do was make the best decision with the information at hand.

Exactly - player agency within the game ends with Shepard's final decision.  The ONLY decision that decisively and permanently removes the Reapers as a potential threat and removes their influence on the galaxy is Destroy.

[Obadiah]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Obadiah wrote...
Couldn't you ask the same of any ending, even ones players wish they had that wasn't in that game? We can't predict the future. The EC gave us a glimpse, but all we could ever do was make the best decision with the information at hand.

Exactly - player agency within the game ends with Shepard's final decision.  The ONLY decision that decisively and permanently removes the Reapers as a potential threat and removes their influence on the galaxy is Destroy.

Influence is debatable, since Organics as they exist now are and will always be the product of the Reaper's cycle.

But that is beside the point - if destroying the Reapers is your only qualification to "winning" then your choice is clear.

Some of us just want to stop the Reaper War and end the cycles. Utterly destroying the enemy is not a necessity to achieve that. 

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

So the Sheplyst commands through having a bigger space fleet than anyone else? That's how the Council rolled before the Reapers came back, too. There's no difference in means here.

The Council rules through the cooperation of three (later four) races working in concert.  They pooled their resources and influence to create a stable government.  And even then there were things the Council fleets didn't dare take on (the idea of a united Terminus for example)

With Control, the buck stops with the Shepalyst.  There is no higher authority, no check on its power.  The galaxy exists because it allows it, and will end should it ever demand it.

[ElSuperGecko]

The Mad Hanar wrote...
Riiiight because responding to the part of your argument that was dircted at me is somehow avoiding other parts of your argument.

The entire post was directed at you.  Hence why I found your palm-waving response to just the opening word so amusing (if unsurprising).

Was galatic society as a whole not unaware of the Reapers until the invasion of Earth? How is returning this specific society to the status quo they enjoyed before the events of the invasion a bigger change than synthesis? How is defeating an opposing army in war comperable to changing the biological make up of every speicies that exists?

It doesn't matter if they were aware of the Reapers or not - they owed their entire existence to the Reapers.  Ever since the first harvest was completed, the galaxy has evolved, developed and eventually been snuffed out under the watchful eye of the Cuttlefish of Doom.  Without the cycle of extinction, humanity would never have arrived on the scene in the first place.

Destroying the Reapers ends the cycle of extinction - and thus enabling the races of the galaxy to persist in their place and evolve, develop and fulfil their potential in new ways, beyond the limits which the Reapers set for them.

Keep in mind that this particular society was not affected by not knowing what wiped out the Protheans. This society will be affected by having their bodies changed. That is what people argue against. Changing people against their will. People have no problem with killing an entire species, and in this case they should not have a problem with it. That species is the single most dangerous and malevolent force in the entire galaxy. However, to suggest that people aren't against Synthesis because of the changes it causes and the nature of how the change is applied is simply being dishonest.

The Protheans weren't affected by not knowing what wiped out the previous cycle.  Their civilisation (like the current cycle) still developed along the lines the Reapers intended, however.  They still set up their seat of government in the Citadel and they still fell for the dark Space Relay "trap" (even if they did manage to give us a way out in the process).  Breaking the cycle is a huge, epoch-shattering change for the galaxy, because for the first time since it started, the future is a blank page.

The point of your original post was that people dislike Synthesis because they fear change, nothing more, nothing less.  That wild and unsubstantiated claim has been successfully refuted, so now you backtrack and attempt to modify your stance accordingly.

There is no proof that Synthesis will have any negative changes. People only apply their fears of what could happen when arguing against Synthesis or when they call Synthesis discussing. Hence my assertion that people who are against Synthesis are merely afraid of change. Destroy merely repersents defeating an enemy outright and ending a war. There is no change except the fact that there is no longer a war happening. Yes, it's a big difference to the people affected by that war, but it doesn't change who they are and the outcome is completely known.

There's no proof, no, but there's plenty of anecdotal foreshadowing and plenty of first hand experience of the Reaper's methods and attempts at fusing the organic with the synthetic.  Show me a person who didn't hear the Catalyst "describe" (for want of a better word) Synthesis who didn't immediately think "Husk" and I'll show you a liar (or someone who simply hasn't been paying attention).  You could easily argue that while Synthesis involves a change of unprecedented scale, but it also essentially puts an end to change, being apparently a "final evolution of all life" and the "perfect solution" to the "chaos" the Catalyst incomprehensibly witters on about.

Destroy on the other hand, changes the broken-record pattern the galaxy has been stuck in for billions of years and for the first time since the Reapers were created, gives the races of the galaxy the chance to determine their OWN fate.  Now that's the kind of change I can get behind.

[AlanC9]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
So the Sheplyst commands through having a bigger space fleet than anyone else? That's how the Council rolled before the Reapers came back, too. There's no difference in means here.

Not quite what I was getting at AlanC9.

Hey, I can only go with what I'm given to work with. You said "Control, Synthesis and Refuse, on the other hand - they all (to one extent/extreme or another) - involve continuing along the path the Reapers laid out for us.  Accepting their ideas, their methods and their logic (or just giving up and allowing them to do what they will - the cycle continues). "  

None of the italed actually seems to be part of your substantive position, except in the trivial sense that the Reapers physically exist in Control and Synthesis.

As for the substantive position:

Destroy creates an immediate and immense galactic change - the Reapers are gone, the epoch-spanning cycle of extinction is over, the evolutionary future of the galaxy is thrown wide open, and the galaxy is essentially "free" to pursue it's own destiny as a result.

Control, however, simply replaces the Reapers controlling AI with another, somewhat different controlling AI.  The endings make it clear the Reapers are not going anywhere, so the galaxy will continue to be influenced by their presence.

Again, this strikes me as true, but trivial. Except for the cycle of extinction , which is over either way.

Player agency in the game ends with Shepard's final decision.  Following that decision, the player has no direct input.  You can speculate what you would like to see the Shepalyst do following "Control", but such speculation isn't the same as the direct and immediate shift we see Destroy.

Sure, but....so what? The entire point of the Control ending is that it depends on the personal character of Shepard. Player speculation as to what happens there is mandatory, not optional. Bio can't do that for us -- except to establish that things worked out OK - and wisely didn't try.

[AlanC9]

ElSuperGecko wrote...
There's no proof, no, but there's plenty of anecdotal foreshadowing and plenty of first hand experience of the Reaper's methods and attempts at fusing the organic with the synthetic.  Show me a person who didn't hear the Catalyst "describe" (for want of a better word) Synthesis who didn't immediately think "Husk" and I'll show you a liar (or someone who simply hasn't been paying attention).

If you're trying to insult people, this is the way.

Personally, I thought of Saren. It was only after seeing Synthesis that I considered husks as possibly belonging in that category. Before that they struck me as mere tools, without intelligence or consciousness, and pretty much irrelevant.

Modifié par AlanC9, 30 octobre 2013 - 06:00 .

[ElSuperGecko]

Obadiah wrote...
Influence is debatable, since Organics as they exist now are and will always be the product of the Reaper's cycle.

But that is beside the point - if destroying the Reapers is your only qualification to "winning" then your choice is clear.

Some of us just want to stop the Reaper War and end the cycles. Utterly destroying the enemy is not a necessity to achieve that. 

Fine, I'll give you "influence" - although following Destroy the races are free to develop further than the Reapers would ever have allowed them too - but stopping the Reaper War by choosing Control or Synthesis doesn't end their threat.

The Catalyst talks about attempting Synthesis before - but failing.  supposing it decides this latest incarnation is also a failure and decides to flick the reset switch?  what kind of effect will a millennia of solitary existence have on Shepard's all-too human mind?  Speculation, conjecture all - but speculation and conjecture that is simply not present following Destroy.  Destroy removes the Reaper threat, Control and Synthesis do not.  Simple as that.

[ElSuperGecko]

AlanC9 wrote...
If you're trying to insult people, this is the way.

Personally, I thought of Saren. It was only after seeing Synthesis that I considered husks as possibly belonging in that category. Before that they struck me as mere tools, without intelligence or consciousness, and pretty much irrelevant.

Deliberately provocative to make a point, no worse than some I've seen in this thread anyway

I thought of Saren too.  "A fusion of organics and synthetic, the strengths of both, the weaknesses of neither!".  sums the concept of Synthesis up quite nicely.  But what was Saren in the end, if not essentially a husk?  Albeit one with just enough self-awareness remaining to understand the magnitude of the mistake he was making, and the strength to put it right... 

[AlanC9]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

The Catalyst talks about attempting Synthesis before - but failing.  supposing it decides this latest incarnation is also a failure and decides to flick the reset switch?  what kind of effect will a millennia of solitary existence have on Shepard's all-too human mind?  Speculation, conjecture all - but speculation and conjecture that is simply not present following Destroy.  Destroy removes the Reaper threat, Control and Synthesis do not.  Simple as that.

In Destroy we have different speculations and conjectures. The obvious one being "what if the Catalyst was right all along?" Obviously we could add more.

Modifié par AlanC9, 30 octobre 2013 - 06:09 .